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LNER Class 91 - What are the retirement plans?

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skyhigh

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As for stranded trains, I can think of very few suituations when it would be possible to proceed using the one engine on an 801 on a electrified route.
They can move the train very slowly, but they can move it.

This is also used on depots to move the unit on unwired roads without the use of a shunter.

The diesel engine also allows the 801s to be diagrammed to low speed diesel work in multiple with an 800. An 800+801 combo was/is booked to work a Harrogate train.

Inclusion of the diesel is a perfectly reasonable bit of contingency.
 
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800001

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They can move the train very slowly, but they can move it.

This is also used on depots to move the unit on unwired roads without the use of a shunter.

The diesel engine also allows the 801s to be diagrammed to low speed diesel work in multiple with an 800. An 800+801 combo was/is booked to work a Harrogate train.

Inclusion of the diesel is a perfectly reasonable bit of contingency.
A 9 car 801 in its donkey engine can achieve speeds of roughly 50mph on level track.

Have been on one near Stevenage and app said doing 46mph.
 

hexagon789

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Have 124 and 119 been out recently? Feels I haven't seen 124 especially in a long while.
124 was last out on the 12th September from what I can see.

119 I think was last out in late-June.

119 has the highest mileage, followed by 124, so they aren't used much.
 

hexagon789

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Thanks for that. I was wondering today which is likely to be the last out. Is 130 the best condition one or am I just lying?
Ah, now unfortunately the converse answer I'm not sure of - which 91 has the lowest.

Certainly 130 has been out recently at least.
 
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Ah, now unfortunately the converse answer I'm not sure of - which 91 has the lowest.

Certainly 130 has been out recently at least.
I remember hearing it was out pretty frequently and had one of the lowest failure rates but, again, facebook wibble...

As for actual retirement, are we likely to just see 897s replace all 91s immediately or a slow trickle over 6 months?
 

hexagon789

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I remember hearing it was out pretty frequently and had one of the lowest failure rates but, again, facebook wibble...

As for actual retirement, are we likely to just see 897s replace all 91s immediately or a slow trickle over 6 months?
As with any fleet replacement, I imagine that will vary depending on how the 91/Mk4 lease relates to actual 897 introduction.

It's not impossible that the 897s are sufficiently delayed that few or even none are in service before the 91s are withdrawn.
 

800001

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I imagine production will need to begin soon to avoid this? Doubt the DFT would pay for any life extension maintenance otherwise
Production should have started already, but as mentioned by others previously, production is/was delayed due to flooding in Spain.
 
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I wonder if the new design will cause further delay? Can't imagine it's as simple as slapping some tri-mode technology in an existing(ish) design? Unless CAF have a proven Tri-Mode product ready to fit 397-esque units. Definitely will be interesting to see how LNER cope if not. Maybe a return of the badger after all? :lol:
 

sprinterguy

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I wonder if the new design will cause further delay? Can't imagine it's as simple as slapping some tri-mode technology in an existing(ish) design? Unless CAF have a proven Tri-Mode product ready to fit 397-esque units. Definitely will be interesting to see how LNER cope if not. Maybe a return of the badger after all? :lol:
It's certainly an untested design in the UK, and given CAF's track record with new fleets in this country to date, plus the trials and tribulations currently being experienced with the 810 fleet in attempting to pack diesel engines under a 24 metre derivation of an existing EMU platform, I think we can confidently look forward to some of the older locos, like the NRM-dedicated 91105, celebrating their fortieth year in passenger service in 2028.
 
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D365

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… I think we can confidently look forward to some of the older locos, like the NRM-dedicated 91105, celebrating their fortieth year in passenger service in 2028.
Given the ongoing delays to the ETCS programme, there’s no rush to get the IC225s out of traffic!
 

YorksLad12

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I remember hearing it was out pretty frequently and had one of the lowest failure rates but, again, facebook wibble...

As for actual retirement, are we likely to just see 897s replace all 91s immediately or a slow trickle over 6 months?
We might have the new units standing in for the 800s/801s, if their rectification programme hasn't finished!
 

hwl

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Isn't there also an issue with keeping the 91s running for too many more years?
Yes the cunning plan was to replace them instead of retrofitting them with ETCS equipment. ETCS effectively drives the retirement (& replacement) deadline.
 

Mikey C

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I actually think the class 397s are a slightly better product than TPE's class 802s, for the two simple reasons that the 397s have plug-type exterior doors and a better provision of table bays aligned with the windows. Both are shorter than a 125mph unit has any right to be and both have the dreadful rock-hard Fainsa Sophia seats, but the 397 has the edge on those two features.
I find the 397s really nice until they start moving!

The IETs don't ride brilliantly, but the 397s, like the other recent CAF stock, are really uncomfortable.
 

800001

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Yes the cunning plan was to replace them instead of retrofitting them with ETCS equipment. ETCS effectively drives the retirement (& replacement) deadline.
And also do the didn't have to spend money on big exams for 91s. The carefully manage the mileage now .
 

Bikeman78

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I find the 397s really nice until they start moving!

The IETs don't ride brilliantly, but the 397s, like the other recent CAF stock, are really uncomfortable.
Agreed. I rode a class 397 from Motherwell to Glasgow. After riding on 156/318/320/385 all day, it felt very rough.
 

Rhydgaled

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They can move the train very slowly, but they can move it.
I seem to recall at least one incident on the ECML north of Finsbury Park where power was off for a substantial time but 801s were able to crawl through at slow speed to continue their journey.
I wasn't saying the class 801's diesel engine couldn't physically move the train. It's just that, if the train is unable to get power from the OHLE while running on an electrified route, I'd have thought at least one of the following would be true in the vast majority of cases:
  • a power outage in the OHLE is stopping an EMU (without self-rescue capability) ahead from moving, meaning the following signal is at danger and following trains (with diesel backup generators) can't proceed beyond that signal
  • a power outage is impacting not just the OHLE but signalling as well, so no signals are lit - in such a situation isn't the driver supposed to assume the signal is at danger?
  • the OHLE has come down and is blocking the line and/or is tangled around a train, preventing that train (and following trains) from moving beyond the next signal
Although you might ask why other countries don't feel the need to do this.
Not just other countries; I don't think (m)any of the suburban and regional electric units on the GB network share the class 801's peculiar ability to move themselves if the external power supply fails, but not fast enough to run normal services on unelectrified routes. Electrostars, for example, can't do that as far as I know.

The diesel engine also allows the 801s to be diagrammed to low speed diesel work in multiple with an 800. An 800+801 combo was/is booked to work a Harrogate train.
I think I read somewhere that they can divert via the Newcastle-Carlisle route with a 10-car formed of an 800/2 in multiple with an 801/1 if the ECML is shut north of Newcastle.

And the comment
but every one of the 40 new trains that have so-far been ordered with the intent of replacing IC225s on the ECML have been equipped with at least one diesel engine:(
seems to imply that the presence of a rescue/hotel power engine on the new fleet is a backward step given the fleet being replaced had no such facility.
Agreed; I did imply that. What's more, I did so intentionally; because in some respects, the inclusion of diesel generator on the class 801s is a backwards step compared to the IC225s. The diesel generator certainly brings some benefits, but it also has its drawbacks.

That to my mind is putting a dogmatic "electric is best" approach before a more practical approach that mitigates one of the primary drawbacks of overhead line power - that of a total failure of power supply stranding trains.
In my earlier post, my sentence began with the words "An electric railway is a better railway," a phrase which (followed by "however you define better") was often used in Modern Railways campaign for more electrification. The class 801 is (in terms of technical complexity and maintenance requirements) actually a bi-mode, not an EMU. You still have the weight of a diesel engine and fuel to consider as well, so it is not as weight-efficient as a pure-electric train. You make a good point that pure-electric trains do have one drawback, that of a loss of 'hotel power' in certain categories of disruption, but the 'solution' to this comes at the cost of some of the benefits of electrification. Both approaches have their pros and cons.

I wonder if the new design will cause further delay? Can't imagine it's as simple as slapping some tri-mode technology in an existing(ish) design? Unless CAF have a proven Tri-Mode product ready to fit 397-esque units. Definitely will be interesting to see how LNER cope if not. Maybe a return of the badger after all? :lol:
CAF certainly were advertising at least bi-mode on their website, with a Australian Civity bi-mode order having been placed some years ago. What I didn't know, until LNER ordered the 897s, was whether CAF offered multi-mode units in the Civity UK platform to fit our loading guage (if they can, as I've been saying since at least 2018 probably, the class 195s, 196s, and 197s should have been at least bi-mode).
 

John R

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I’d suggest that one diesel engine and a bit of fuel for emergency use in a 9 car set is not going to materially move the dial in terms of the weight to outweigh the benefits of having the flexibility and contingency that it gives.

Over the years there have been far too many instances reported of passengers being stuck on trains without power/light/toilets that make it a desirable addition, rather than a retrograde step. IMO anyway.
 

FrontSideBus

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I'd also bet that an emergency diesel engine plus fuel weighs a lot less than an equivalent battery system.
Diesel also doesn't randomly self combust either.
 

sh24

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It is fascinating that a Class 73 is hailed as a clever forward thinking piece of 60’s design but the donkey engine on Azuma is, somehow, a failure of the modern railway.
 

43096

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It is fascinating that a Class 73 is hailed as a clever forward thinking piece of 60’s design but the donkey engine on Azuma is, somehow, a failure of the modern railway.
The Class 73 engine was there for specific purposes where lines were not electrified. The Azuma donkey engine is there purely because the infrastructure is so unreliable.
 
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