Northern Class 331 East:West unit swap

[rich-leeds]

How's the transfer of sets and rollout going? The number of 6-car diagrams doesn't seem to have grown for a while, and seems to be receding today!

End of summer holidays means it'll be coming to a busy commuter time soon.

 

[308165]

Its been fairly poor this week. No 6 cars at all Monday/Tuesday, one diagram yesterday and this morning, and two tonight.

Not clear if 331s are covering 333s or whether it's a 331 shortage. There have also been quite a lot of 331s going round with non multiple working boards on them.

 

[Adam0984]

In all honesty it's not going well, they get 1 maybe 2 6 car sets out a day out of 3 diagrams. They're covering for 333s but also they're not behaving themselves with the ASDO either

 

[xotGD]

On Sunday only one of the two Skipton diagrams was a six, the other was a three. If they don't have enough sets available on a Sunday, it suggests something is badly wrong.

Incidentally, the 17:19 Leeds - Skipton, which is booked a 6, always seems to have more expensive advances available than the 3 and 4 car services in peak hours.This wasn't the case when it was booked a 333. Are the advance quotas based on it being short formed, I wonder?

 

[Tram203]

On Sunday only one of the two Skipton diagrams was a six, the other was a three. If they don't have enough sets available on a Sunday, it suggests something is badly wrong.

Incidentally, the 17:19 Leeds - Skipton, which is booked a 6, always seems to have more expensive advances available than the 3 and 4 car services in peak hours.This wasn't the case when it was booked a 333. Are the advance quotas based on it being short formed, I wonder?

Sorry if off topic - but advance tickets for a Leeds to Skipton local service?

Whatever next. Lancaster - Morecambe advances? Deansgate - Oxford Road advances?

 

[D6130]

Sorry if off topic - but advance tickets for a Leeds to Skipton local service?

Whatever next. Lancaster - Morecambe advances? Deansgate - Oxford Road advances?

Northern issues advance singles for virtually any journey.

 

[Adam0984]

On Sunday only one of the two Skipton diagrams was a six, the other was a three. If they don't have enough sets available on a Sunday, it suggests something is badly wrong.

Even then on sunday the 6 car they did send out got cut in half about 4pm at Skipton as one has a TPWS fault

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Sep 2025 ==

Incidentally, the 17:19 Leeds - Skipton, which is booked a 6, always seems to have more expensive advances available than the 3 and 4 car services in peak hours.This wasn't the case when it was booked a 333. Are the advance quotas based on it being short formed, I wonder?

I think now they can't guarantee a 6 car then the quota of advance tickets will have been reduced so as not to overcrowd the train especially been the key commuter train for 5pm finishers.

 

[Mollman]

Northern issues advance singles for virtually any journey.

Yep, have bought one for the 5 minute trip from Cottingham to Hull in the past

 

[Grumpy]

In all honesty it's not going well, they get 1 maybe 2 6 car sets out a day out of 3 diagrams. They're covering for 333s but also they're not behaving themselves with the ASDO either

There are notices on Ilkley station advising that the lengthened trains will not fit in all the station platforms, and advising which carriages to travel in depending on your destination.
For example passengers for Burley in Wharfedale should travel in the front five carriages. Fair enough and very informative.
However when you are on the train, the display ( and the attentive guard) inform you that you must travel in the front four carriages.
When the service was operated by 333's the four cars fit the existing platforms with no difficulty. The front four carriages of a 6 car 331 are approx 95m which is more or less the same as a 333.
So money's been spent doing some platform lengthening for seemingly no benefit (unless I'm being even more obtuse than normal)

 

[oscarthecat92]

There are notices on Ilkley station advising that the lengthened trains will not fit in all the station platforms, and advising which carriages to travel in depending on your destination.
For example passengers for Burley in Wharfedale should travel in the front five carriages. Fair enough and very informative.
However when you are on the train, the display ( and the attentive guard) inform you that you must travel in the front four carriages.
When the service was operated by 333's the four cars fit the existing platforms with no difficulty. The front four carriages of a 6 car 331 are approx 95m which is more or less the same as a 333.
So money's been spent doing some platform lengthening for seemingly no benefit (unless I'm being even more obtuse than normal)

It is the same situation at Shipley heading towards Leeds.

At Apperley Bridge the extended areas of the platforms appear to still be fenced off despite having finished construction several months ago.

 

[bigmanaiq]

One of the Doncaster runs has been a 331 both today and yesterday, I sincerely hope this is a one off

 

[Twingo37175]

One of the Doncaster runs has been a 331 both today and yesterday, I sincerely hope this is a one off

They drop on occasionally, I assume from lack of 333. They will sometimes swap back out the same day, or will run 2 days before then going to neville Hill or Ilkley if on the first Leeds service out of Donny

 

[quantinghome]

Anecdotally from Northern staff it sounds like the paired units are having reliability problems.

 

[Gordonman]

333007,333011 and 333014 have been OOS now for at least two weeks.

Quite rare for Northern to have all 3 paired class 331 diagrams on the Leeds North West triangle allocated correctly.

They need to transfer at least one other class 331 from west to east to ensure reliability in the east

 

[amahy]

333007,333011 and 333014 have been OOS now for at least two weeks.

Quite rare for Northern to have all 3 paired class 331 diagrams on the Leeds North West triangle allocated correctly.

They need to transfer at least one other class 331 from west to east to ensure reliability in the east.

That wouldn’t solve anything, as there’s short forms on Manchester Airport to Blackpool North as it is, a route which needs to be 6 car. Anything shorter results on overcrowding all day.

 

[1D53]

333007,333011 and 333014 have been OOS now for at least two weeks.

Quite rare for Northern to have all 3 paired class 331 diagrams on the Leeds North West triangle allocated correctly.

They need to transfer at least one other class 331 from west to east to ensure reliability in the east

011 is stopped for PIS upgrade, the other two stopped for repairs.

 

[bigmanaiq]

They drop on occasionally, I assume from lack of 333. They will sometimes swap back out the same day, or will run 2 days before then going to neville Hill or Ilkley if on the first Leeds service out of Donny

I see, wasn’t aware there were a few out of service, first time there’s been a 331 not on a Sunday for a while now

On a similar note, is the last northbound weekday service still done by a DMU? (and if so - why?, I assume it’s to cycle Sheffield units back to Neville Hill as they come off an Adwick service but I could be wrong)

 

[pokemonsuper9]

On a similar note, is the last northbound weekday service still done by a DMU?

Yes, Diagram NL 476 as per the freedom of information request from April

DIAGRAM:	NL	476​	SX	150/1	LTP
Runs	From:	19/05/2025​	Until:	12/12/2025​
HolbeckLS		05+15	5L99GY
Leeds	05+28	5.54​	2L99GZ
Sheffield	7.15​	7.3​	2Y70GZ
York	8.49​	9.15​	2Y87GZ
Sheffield	10.33​	10+38	5Y87XY
ShefldSdg	10+43	11+31	5Y74XX
Sheffield	11+36	11.41​	2Y74GZ
York	13.03​	13.14​	2Y89GZ
Sheffield	14.33​	14+38	5Y89XX
ShefldSdg	14+43	15+30	5Y76XX
Sheffield	15+35	15.4​	2Y76GZ
York	17.03​	17.16​	2Y91GZ
Sheffield	18.33​	19.06​	2R56GZ
Adwick	20.02​	20+04	5R61AG
Adwick	20+22	20.24​	2R61GZ
Sheffield	21.19​	22.07​	2R67GZ
Adwick	22.54​	22+57	5R98AG
Doncaster	23+13	23.23​	2B91DR
Leeds	0.21​	00+30	5B91GY
N.Hill D.		00+40
MILES:	(LD)	420​	(ETY)	13.8​	(TOT)	433.8​

 

[bigmanaiq]

Yes, Diagram NL 476 as per the freedom of information request from April

Thank you very much!

 

[Harvey B]

011 is stopped for PIS upgrade, the other two stopped for repairs.

How many units have been done now? I seem to make that 8

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Oct 2025 ==

Are there anymore 331s due over in December? Or are they just sticking with 12?

 

[rich-leeds]

Still seems to be a challenge delivering the six car diagrams.

Had stock related cancellations last week, which is unusual for Leeds North West. I'm assuming 333 availability is still a driver?

Is that our lot for 331 transfers, or are more expected? Thank you.

 

[david l]

Northern diagrams for Dec 25 (issued under a FOI on 22/9/25 and therefore subject to change) have 10 diagrams for 331/0 at NL +2 exam/spare (M-F) = 12
Diagrams for 331/0 at AN have 16 + 2 exam/spare + 1 for brake test/ETCS = 19, AN 331/1 diagrams have 11 + 1 exam/spare = 12.
No change.

 

[308165]

Still seems to be a challenge delivering the six car diagrams.

Had stock related cancellations last week, which is unusual for Leeds North West. I'm assuming 333 availability is still a driver?

Is that our lot for 331 transfers, or are more expected? Thank you.

I think challenge is a bit of an understatement. If they manage one six car diagram on a weekday they are doing well.

The only one that seems to regularly appear is the 0716 from Skipton and that might be because it goes on to Neville Hill so they can swap over units for maintenance.

333s have been covering some six car diagrams, suggesting Northern have woken up to the issue, though equally 331s have been covering some 333 peak work.

It would be interesting to know why there are suddenly such chronic unit shortages

Either way passengers have lost faith in the six car plan, based on what I hear them saying on trains.

 

[northernchris]

It would be interesting to know why there are suddenly such chronic unit shortages

I've contacted Northern recently about this and they have stated it's due to supply issues with parts, although not sure if this solely relates to the 331s Either way, according to Northern's latest performance figures almost 20% of service under the West and North Yorkshire Local service group, which the Airedale/Wharfedale lines sit under, were either short formed or cancelled.

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

Alas, the 0716 from Skipton didn't make it out of the platform this morning. The 0730 is only going to be 3 cars so going to be a cosy old ride down the Airedale this morning.

Is it the on board systems having a strop when coupled together or something?

 

[oscarthecat92]

Alas, the 0716 from Skipton didn't make it out of the platform this morning. The 0730 is only going to be 3 cars so going to be a cosy old ride down the Airedale this morning.

Is it the on board systems having a strop when coupled together or something?

There seems to be lots of problems with the 6 cars 2 331s coupled together. Several times I have used the services they have either not made it out of Leeds (and have had to be split and heavily delayed) or had issues at a short platform station en route and incurred heavy delays.

 

[308165]

Alas, the 0716 from Skipton didn't make it out of the platform this morning. The 0730 is only going to be 3 cars so going to be a cosy old ride down the Airedale this morning.

Is it the on board systems having a strop when coupled together or something?

I must be on the same train as you then. I shouldn't have so confidently predicted the 0716 was good for a 6 car!

Whatever the issues are with multiple working on six cars no one seems in a rush to find a solution. Presumably its an IT issue rather than anything physical.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Speaking as someone who drives these services: The main issue is with ASDO, the system that automatically selects which doors are available to be released at a given station (as most platforms aren't long enough). There are numerous software and hardware faults which tend to spring up when units are in multiple. Furthermore the ASDO cells at Guiseley, Shipley and Saltaire are faulty and causing ASDO to lose GPS signal until the train is hard reset.

 

[oscarthecat92]

I must be on the same train as you then. I shouldn't have so confidently predicted the 0716 was good for a 6 car!

Whatever the issues are with multiple working on six cars no one seems in a rush to find a solution. Presumably its an IT issue rather than anything physical.

It is a real shame as it has tanked the reliability on what was previously a reliable line and in practice has cut capacity compared to when it was operated by 4 car 333s and 4 car 331s

 

[Gordonman]

What is the difference between the east and west sides?331's run in pairs on the west side without any issues.
Units out of service for maintenance/repairs/modifications is the main problem at the moment.
On Monday morning for example 4 class 331 (33% of the east fleet) and 4 class 333 (25% of the fleet) were unavailable for traffic.
The simple answer (maybe not to Northern management) would be to temporarily transfer another couple of 331's from west to east and replace these with 322's of which there are a surplus.