Caledonian Sleeper

[BRX]

It's not policed all that rigourously in my experience. I've certainly gone there pre departure and been able to get a table. I'd not rely on it, but worst that happens is you have to wait a bit. Even if it's busy it usually seems to quieten down reasonably quickly.

 

[Bill57p9]

I would also point out that the Aberdeen portion usually only has 2 sleeper coaches (unlike Edinburgh, Glasgow or Inverness which are 6 each) therefore there should be little competition on the southbound in the evening.

 

[ajrm]

On the southbound Aberdeen you are likely to have the lounge car to yourself! Northbound (where the lounge car is shared with Fort William) is a different story, but if you're prepared to wait you should be ok.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

On the southbound Aberdeen you are likely to have the lounge car to yourself! Northbound (where the lounge car is shared with Fort William) is a different story, but if you're prepared to wait you should be ok.

Out of interest, if the majority of lounge car patronage is for the Fort William service, why doesn’t the vehicle work through as part of that portion?

 

[JonathanH]

Out of interest, if the majority of lounge car patronage is for the Fort William service, why doesn’t the vehicle work through as part of that portion?

Why does it need to, and how would the shunting work?

The majority of the year-round seated accommodation demand is generally to the Aberdeen side, and no one is in the lounge car at the time the split happens.

Shunting two coaches onto a single portion is somewhat easier than having to put one on the Fort William portion and another on the Aberdeen portion.

 

[JB1601]

On the southbound Aberdeen you are likely to have the lounge car to yourself! Northbound (where the lounge car is shared with Fort William) is a different story, but if you're prepared to wait you should be ok.

A good point - thanks for the replies - looking forward to it!

 

[driverd]

Why does it need to, and how would the shunting work?

The majority of the year-round seated accommodation demand is generally to the Aberdeen side, and no one is in the lounge car at the time the split happens.

Shunting two coaches onto a single portion is somewhat easier than having to put one on the Fort William portion and another on the Aberdeen portion.

I take the question to mean why don't the seats and lounge stay with the FTW portion, which is a reasonable question given that Fort William is now generally much busier than Aberdeen. Seems odd they send, what is in effect, the historic Aberdeen portion to Fort William, all except the seats/lounge.

 

[JonathanH]

I take the question to mean why don't the seats and lounge stay with the FTW portion, which is a reasonable question given that Fort William is now generally much busier than Aberdeen.

While the sleeper berths are busier to Fort William, that doesn't mean the seats are. It wouldn't be that hard to prove that by going through speculative bookings for both routes, and seeing how many seats are taken on the Aberdeen portion and then looking at the number on the Edinburgh to Fort William part.

Tomorrow night, it looks like there are 8 seats available on the Aberdeen / Fort William portion and 23 on the Fort William portion, which suggests an 8 / 15 split in favour of the Aberdeen journey. If it remains like that it is obvious why the through seats go to Aberdeen.

 

[xotGD]

While the sleeper berths are busier to Fort William, that doesn't mean the seats are. It wouldn't be that hard to prove that by going through speculative bookings for both routes, and seeing how many seats are taken on the Aberdeen portion and then looking at the number on the Edinburgh to Fort William part.

Tomorrow night, it looks like there are 8 seats available on the Aberdeen / Fort William portion and 23 on the Fort William portion, which suggests an 8 / 15 split in favour of the Aberdeen journey. If it remains like that it is obvious why the through seats go to Aberdeen.

But having to get off at Waverley at an ungodly hour will suppress demand for the Fort William seats.

 

[driverd]

Tomorrow night, it looks like there are 8 seats available on the Aberdeen / Fort William portion and 23 on the Fort William portion, which suggests an 8 / 15 split in favour of the Aberdeen journey. If it remains like that it is obvious why the through seats go to Aberdeen.

I'm not too sure how you work that one out? Where are you checking the seats from and to?

The seated coach has 30 seats, so if theres 8 on one and 23 on the other, that's 31 seats (ie: oversold by 1).

 

[JonathanH]

I'm not too sure how you work that one out? Where are you checking the seats from and to?

The seated coach has 30 seats, so if theres 8 on one and 23 on the other, that's 31 seats (ie: oversold by 1).

Firstly, there are 31 seats, not 30. 10 rows of 3 and one extra by the door.

I first selected a journey tomorrow night from London to Aberdeen and found 8 seats not taken on the seat plan, so the combined custom to Fort William and Aberdeen is 23 passengers. Then, I selected a journey the same night from London to Fort William, and found 23 seats not taken on the seat plan which suggests 8 passengers for Fort William, and therefore 15 people heading towards the east coast destinations.

But having to get off at Waverley at an ungodly hour will suppress demand for the Fort William seats.

That is neither here nor there. Caledonian Sleeper can only sell the trunk journey from London to Edinburgh once, so they don't really mind whether a passenger travels to the east or west coast. Indeed, it is arguably better to make travelling in the seats to Fort William less attractive because it means they can sell more berths, and get a small amount of income from internal Scottish travellers.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I'm not too sure how you work that one out? Where are you checking the seats from and to?

The seated coach has 30 seats, so if theres 8 on one and 23 on the other, that's 31 seats (ie: oversold by 1).

No, there is only one seated coach leaving Euston. If there are only eight unsold seats leaving Euston, there are 31 - 8= 23 seats taken on the seated coach as far as nEdinburgh.
The FW portion has 23 spare seats, so only 31-23 = 8 passengers are transferring to the Fort William portion, meaning the other 23- 8 = 15 passengers are staying on board the Aberdeen portion beyond Edinburgh.

[EDITED as another poster has pointed out there are actually 31 seats].

 

[JonathanH]

The sums can actually be done by only checking the Fort William portion as simply being the difference between the number of reservations in coach A and coach S. 11 Fort William / 15 Aberdeen on Wednesday night.

I suspect that year round demand for seats remains stronger to the east coast.

 

[driverd]

The sums can actually be done by only checking the Fort William portion as simply being the difference between the number of reservations in coach A and coach S. 11 Fort William / 15 Aberdeen on Wednesday night.

I suspect that year round demand for seats remains stronger to the east coast.

Where are you getting the loadings for each coach from? Or is it just that you're going a step further than me on the CS website?

 

[JonathanH]

Where are you getting the loadings for each coach from? Or is it just that you're going a step further than me on the CS website?

You can change the choice of seat on the CS website once you go through the process of giving contact details.

 

[driverd]

Firstly, there are 31 seats, not 30.

I sourced this from CS's website info - are you sure the 31st isn't a wheelchair space/companion?

That is neither here nor there. Caledonian Sleeper can only sell the trunk journey from London to Edinburgh once, so they don't really mind whether a passenger travels to the east or west coast. Indeed, it is arguably better to make travelling in the seats to Fort William less attractive because it means they can sell more berths, and get a small amount of income from internal Scottish travellers.

In fairness I do think this is more "here" than "there" if we're discussing demand modelling and where to send the seating carriage. If there's potentially more demand for FTW than ABD it would make sense to send the seats and lounge to the former.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Sep 2025 ==

You can change the choice of seat on the CS website once you go through the process of giving contact details.

Ah superb - Interesting to have a play with.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Sep 2025 ==

No, there is only one seated coach leaving Euston. If there are only eight unsold seats leaving Euston, there are 31 - 8= 23 seats taken on the seated coach as far as nEdinburgh.
The FW portion has 23 spare seats, so only 31-23 = 8 passengers are transferring to the Fort William portion, meaning the other 23- 8 = 15 passengers are staying on board the Aberdeen portion beyond Edinburgh.

[EDITED as another poster has pointed out there are actually 31 seats].

Aware of the arrangements re: number of coaches leaving Euston, I've done it a good few times.

That makes sense now I understand the methodology - I presumed it was based on the website saying "only x seats remaining", I didnt realise you could access the map.

 

[185143]

I sourced this from CS's website info - are you sure the 31st isn't a wheelchair space/companion?



In fairness I do think this is more "here" than "there" if we're discussing demand modelling and where to send the seating carriage. If there's potentially more demand for FTW than ABD it would make sense to send the seats and lounge to the former.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Sep 2025 ==



Ah superb - Interesting to have a play with.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Sep 2025 ==



Aware of the arrangements re: number of coaches leaving Euston, I've done it a good few times.

That makes sense now I understand the methodology - I presumed it was based on the website saying "only x seats remaining", I didnt realise you could access the map.

No.

There are 11 rows. Row 2-11 are 2+1 seating, so a total of 30 seats.

Row 1 consists of a single seat on the "1" side, and a wheelchair space on the "2" side. So there are definitely 31 seats.

I am very familiar with the Caledonian Sleeper seated coaches and have sat in 1A several times, I can assure you it exists!

 

[BRX]

But having to get off at Waverley at an ungodly hour will suppress demand for the Fort William seats.

Another consequence of the current arrangement is that if you want to take a bicycle to Fort William, you have to get up in the middle of the night to move it, even if you're travelling in a sleeper berth.

 

[Tester]

Another consequence of the current arrangement is that if you want to take a bicycle to Fort William, you have to get up in the middle of the night to move it, even if you're travelling in a sleeper berth.

That is truly ludicrous

 

[styles]

Catching the sleeper from Aberdeen in a few weeks for the first time in a long time. Used to do it every year or two for a while, then kids got in the way!
This time my eldest is coming with me and is very excited about the prospect of a sleeper train. It’s my first time on the new rolling stock (yep it’s been that long). I notice there is still the same awkward wording about “priority” access to the club car. What’s the deal with this in reality? We are in a classic room and the wording says we are allowed in “after departure”. Is this just to give the club rooms a chance to get there first? Or is it just not policed the same as it used to be?

I have never had an issue using the Club car with a classic room ticket. It's the main way I get to London for work. The one thing I would say is there are some natural peak times for the Club car so if you happen to see it's genuinely full, it'll probably be a case of coming back a little later. I find it quietens down quite early though, especially during the week.

In fact on a couple of occasions I've even been let in with a seated ticket (in the wee hours while everybody else is asleep mind), though often it is politely refused.

 

[HighlandStorm]

That is truly ludicrous

The demand for bikes to Fort William is likely to be higher than to Aberdeen. Plus, Aberdeen has 3 LNER direct trains to London a day - thus it seems to be far more preferable to give Fort William the through seats.

 

[JonathanH]

The demand for bikes to Fort William is likely to be higher than to Aberdeen. Plus, Aberdeen has 3 LNER direct trains to London a day - thus it seems to be far more preferable to give Fort William the through seats.

I'm not sure your points follow. Are berth passengers with bikes more important than seated passengers? There are fewer bike spaces than seats.

I have noted that on two days the demand for seats to the east side was more than to the west side. The whole point of an overnight train is to avoid having to spend the whole day on a "day train".

 

[HighlandStorm]

I'm not sure your points follow. Are berth passengers with bikes more important than seated passengers? There are fewer bike spaces than seats.

I have noted that on two days the demand for seats to the east side was more than to the west side. The whole point of an overnight train is to avoid having to spend the whole day on a "day train".

One of the reasons the investment was made in the new sleepers and the subsidy is justified is because of the wider economic benefits of inbound tourism. Tourism is a much more important part of the West Highland economy, so yes in my view the Fort William service should be prioritised over the Aberdeen one.

Aberdeen of course also has the option of direct flights to London and more trains a day southbound than Inverness. Aberdeen has as many day trains direct to London as Fort William has day trains in total.

Given the extent of connectivity all the other Scottish sleeper terminus locations have to London (by rail or air), it’s perverse that the one place where the sleeper is the only such direct service is the sole one that has the requirement to change coaches in the middle of the night.

To be honest, there’s a fairly strong argument for ditching the Aberdeen sleeper and running an additional connecting ScotRail service in its place. That would greatly simplify the Highland operation and provide more capacity on services which regularly sell out.

 

[Harlequinuk]

Maybe they can start running the sleeper back to Bristol for economic benefits

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be honest, there’s a fairly strong argument for ditching the Aberdeen sleeper and running an additional connecting ScotRail service in its place. That would greatly simplify the Highland operation and provide more capacity on services which regularly sell out.

I'm very much inclined this way. With the higher prices and reduced North Sea oil work I don't think the Aberdeen is used by workers in the way it used to be, and you could easily run a guaranteed connection (waits for the sleeper) from the Edinburgh Highlander portion which would allow leaving Euston later, albeit for a later arrival, but I doubt most people would mind.

Then that way you've got a much simpler Highlander of two portions, one to Inverness and one to FW, no faffy shunting or changing coach (which must surely suppress FW demand) and a couple of spare coaches in case of problems.

 

[enginedin]

Maybe they can start running the sleeper back to Bristol for economic benefits

this would help me with a particularly awkward travel issue I have in a couple of weeks

 

[zwk500]

Maybe they can start running the sleeper back to Bristol for economic benefits

What economic benefits? You can fly Bristol to Edinburgh at 7am and be at a 10am meeting easily.

 

[ajrm]

I'm very much inclined this way. With the higher prices and reduced North Sea oil work I don't think the Aberdeen is used by workers in the way it used to be, and you could easily run a guaranteed connection (waits for the sleeper) from the Edinburgh Highlander portion which would allow leaving Euston later, albeit for a later arrival, but I doubt most people would mind.

Then that way you've got a much simpler Highlander of two portions, one to Inverness and one to FW, no faffy shunting or changing coach (which must surely suppress FW demand) and a couple of spare coaches in case of problems.

Don't forget that the Aberdeen portion serves plenty of destinations other than Aberdeen...

I assume you mean the Edinburgh Lowlander portion. This is an option currently and as a traveller from Dundee I occasionally connect into the Lowlander but the direct journey is far preferable. Even northbound, I'd take the over-early arrival at Dundee over changing trains at Edinburgh in the middle of the morning peak, unshowered, and joining a crowded day train.

Chances of running a 'guaranteed' connection to occupy platform space at Waverley in the morning peak awaiting the sleeper that's running 2 hours late? Somewhere below zero I reckon.

 

[Bald Rick]

Ok the contrary, it is my preferred way of travelling from my home near Edinburgh to work in London. I sleep like a baby, maybe similar to infants sleeping well in cars with the light rumbling.

I get a decent meal when I board, a good night's kip, a relaxing breakfast and shower in the morning, and arrive at my work having not felt I've 'lost' any time because it's time I would've just been asleep at home instead. Whereas a daytime train eats into my family and social time, and airports are soul destroying.

Contrarily, for me I sleep very badly on the sleeper. If I’m travelling from home to work in Scotland, it‘s the 1630 or 1730 off Euston, some work reading, a decent salad and a couple of beers on the way (bought in M&S at Euston), quick trip to the Pot Still for a nightcap, Radisson Blu or Leonardo by the station (usually similar price to Travelodge etc), sleep like a baby, up, showered, proper breakfast and in the office for 0800. Far more preferable than hanging around work then Euston waiting for the lowlander boarding.

 

[styles]

Contrarily, for me I sleep very badly on the sleeper. If I’m travelling from home to work in Scotland, it‘s the 1630 or 1730 off Euston, some work reading, a decent salad and a couple of beers on the way (bought in M&S at Euston), quick trip to the Pot Still for a nightcap, Radisson Blu or Leonardo by the station (usually similar price to Travelodge etc), sleep like a baby, up, showered, proper breakfast and in the office for 0800. Far more preferable than hanging around work then Euston waiting for the lowlander boarding.

Oh I should add that on the way back home north I take daytime trains. I try and leave client sites around 4pm and get home at a reasonable time even for a home cooked tea, take the dog for a short walk, then comfy bed.

I wouldn't finish work at a client site at say 4-6pm then hang around until nearly midnight for the sleeper home. The exception to this is I sometimes tag on social stuff with London pals to work trips, at which point a train at 23:45 actually works quite well!