Manchester - Scotland EMU stock

[MCR247]

I'm sure you was on about short term...?

 

[Whistler40145]

Yes, I think of using 90+Mk 3s in the short term, unless East Coast had it's own Pendolinos, therefore 91+Mk 4s could be cascaded & Pendolino sets as a long term use.

 

[MCR247]

There isn't exactly a million servicable MK3s lying around though?

 

[Failed Unit]

Yes, I think of using 90+Mk 3s in the short term, unless East Coast had it's own Pendolinos, therefore 91+Mk 4s could be cascaded & Pendolino sets as a long term use.

Please no! We want to keep the mk4s! Order more pendos (even 5 coach ones) for West coast routes.

 

[northwichcat]

unless East Coast had it's own Pendolinos

EC are due to get IEP but that'll be after EMUs on Manchester Airport to Scotland.

It would seem to make sense for any London intercity services that are mk3 and don't get switched to IEP to get the mk4s. Cornwall-London was mentioned as coming under this category in another thread.

 

[Whistler40145]

Will Liverpool St-Norwich be using 90+Mk 3s for a number of years or will they be available by completion of Electrification?

 

[tbtc]

EC are due to get IEP

I thought that was only to replace HSTs, with (some?) 91s remaining in service too?

 

[ainsworth74]

I thought that was only to replace HSTs, with (some?) 91s remaining in service too?

That the situation as it stands now is IEP to replace the HSTs and 225s to remain in service. Originally the IEP programme envisioned replacing the 225s as well but that was due in the early 2020s and I think that now has either been dropped as a requirement all together or at the very least kicked into the long grass.

 

[Pumbaa]

Let's face it - no-one knows whats happening with IEP, especially not DafT.

 

[northwichcat]

So that this thread doesn't change in to an IEP thread I've started a new thread here with a link to the DfT document on IEP here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=746295

 

[IanXC]

For me the answer to the Manchester-Scotland stock is where the route is likely to end up in the Franchise map. I think theres a fairly broad consensus that the route should be in the ICWC franchise.

My hope is that the winning bidder for ICWC electrifies Crewe-Chester and introduces a fleet of 390s (maybe 6 car units) to replace the 221 and operate Manchester-Scotland. This would make the franchise entirely 390 operated (+57 drag), giving economies of scale and standardisation.

 

[WatcherZero]

Could you imagine what would happen if they discovered a fatigue fault or other problem with the 390's which required them to be taken out of service for modifications though :P

 

[tbtc]

For me the answer to the Manchester-Scotland stock is where the route is likely to end up in the Franchise map. I think theres a fairly broad consensus that the route should be in the ICWC franchise.

My hope is that the winning bidder for ICWC electrifies Crewe-Chester and introduces a fleet of 390s (maybe 6 car units) to replace the 221 and operate Manchester-Scotland. This would make the franchise entirely 390 operated (+57 drag), giving economies of scale and standardisation.

I agree with all of that, especially the first sentence.

 

[Whistler40145]

I see no logic in both Virgin West Coast & FTPE running services between Preston & Edinburgh/Glasgow, when in my mind it should all be run under the ICWC franchise.

If they wished, in the future, a Birmingham to Glasgow/Edinburgh service could alternate via Crewe/Warrington or Stoke/Manchester.

 

[MCR247]

I have always thought that this should happen:

The XC Bournemouth - Manchester is cut back to Birmingham and then joined with the Birmingham - Scotland
New 350s would then take over Birmingham - Manchester, This could run via Manchester Airport and continue to Scotland, under ICWC using 350s?

 

[IanXC]

Could you imagine what would happen if they discovered a fatigue fault or other problem with the 390's which required them to be taken out of service for modifications though :P

Because 20 221s can really cover for 53+ 390s.... Its not dissimilar to the effect of HSTs on FGW, or 222s on EMT. Or come to think of it 91+mk4 on EC - didnt that happen a few years ago?

I dont think any operator could cover for a major recall on its long distance stock from within its own resources. Better for its own resources to therefore be concentrated into a centre of excellence on its particular stock.

 

[WatcherZero]

Restricted service is better than no service, theres a reason most airlines diversify their fleet (though some only use a single model for maximum cost savings)

 

[northwichcat]

New 350s would then take over Birmingham - Manchester, This could run via Manchester Airport and continue to Scotland, under ICWC using 350s?

The problem will be that the hourly Crewe to Warrington/Wigan/Preston/Lancaster service as it is now is proving insufficient (it was half-hourly before Virgin's VHF timetable was introduced) and the hourly Crewe to Warrington service is provided by the Birmingham-Scotland service.

 

[MCR247]

This would be as well as the existing Birmingham - Scotland service which would run under XC. Sorry for not making it clear

 

[Whistler40145]

I thought it was absolutely ludicrous that Birmingham/Manchester-Scotland services were taken away from XC.

 

[MCR247]

Manchester - Scotland I can understand, but Birmingham - Scotland should have stayed XC

 

[RobShipway]

Manchester - Scotland I can understand, but Birmingham - Scotland should have stayed XC

XC doing Birmingham - Scotland is fine, as long as they have two extra cars added to the class 220 with one being a pantograph car and one extra car to the class 221's used by XC again for the pantograph.

 

[Holly]

There isn't exactly a million servicable MK3s lying around though?

Well lots were built.

Rumour has it that Derby would like some more work. Either a refurb contract or a further build of new version of Mark3s perhaps. I'm sure the blueprints are lying around somewhere.

 

[tbtc]

I thought it was absolutely ludicrous that Birmingham/Manchester-Scotland services were taken away from XC.

If Birmingham - Glasgow/Edinburgh (via the WCML) was going to be cut at New Street (so not serving Bristol/ Reading etc) then it makes sense to be part of West Coast (alongside the Manchester Airport - Glasgow/Edinburgh service, I should add).

The problem is that there are only four paths south on XC (two to Reading, two to Bristol), and a lot more potential services to the north (two to Liverpool, two to Manchester, two to the ECML, one up the WCML to Scotland). So any attempt to give Glasgow/Edinburgh or Liverpool a XC service to Bristol/Reading would have to be instead of an established link from Manchester/Newcastle.

 

[MCR247]

Well lots were built.

Rumour has it that Derby would like some more work. Either a refurb contract or a further build of new version of Mark3s perhaps. I'm sure the blueprints are lying around somewhere.

A refurb contract OF WHAT?! THIN AIR?!

As if you could build more MK3s now :roll:

 

[BananaRepublic]

Well lots were built.
Either a refurb contract or a further build of new version of Mark3s perhaps.

As if you could build more MK3s now :roll:

Indeed, you couldn't built Mk3 today. The necessary re-design to meet modern crashworthiness standards, fitting of powered doors, retention tank bogs, modern electrics & electronics, blah blah, would render a completely new design. I wager it would be easier and more cost effective to start from scratch.
I doubt it will happen as the market for LHCS is now so small.

 

[route:oxford]

The problem is that there are only four paths south on XC (two to Reading, two to Bristol), and a lot more potential services to the north (two to Liverpool, two to Manchester, two to the ECML, one up the WCML to Scotland). So any attempt to give Glasgow/Edinburgh or Liverpool a XC service to Bristol/Reading would have to be instead of an established link from Manchester/Newcastle.

That's interesting

So a massive spend on New Street to bring it up to standard - yet still scuppered with pathing.

What would it take to introduce, say, a further 2 paths south of Birmingham?

Or should some services be routed via Moor Street?

 

[swt_passenger]

So a massive spend on New Street to bring it up to standard - yet still scuppered with pathing.

The New St rebuild has never been expected to improve anything to do with the actual train services, indeed it has often been claimed that any attempt to resignal to modern standards or modernise the track layout would reduce its capacity significantly...

 

[northwichcat]

The XC Bournemouth - Manchester is cut back to Birmingham and then joined with the Birmingham - Scotland
New 350s would then take over Birmingham - Manchester, This could run via Manchester Airport and continue to Scotland, under ICWC using 350s?

Before Glasgow-South West was split up and the Birmingham-South West was tagged on to the Manchester-Birmingham's that didn't continue to Reading, it was suggested that more 350s would be put on Manchester-Birmingham. However, Virgin made it awkward as they refused to take on a small 350 fleet and kicked up a fuss about how London Midland would take their passengers if LM ran the service instead.

 

[Failed Unit]

Before Glasgow-South West was split up and the Birmingham-South West was tagged on to the Manchester-Birmingham's that didn't continue to Reading, it was suggested that more 350s would be put on Manchester-Birmingham. However, Virgin made it awkward as they refused to take on a small 350 fleet and kicked up a fuss about how London Midland would take their passengers if LM ran the service instead.

How long after that did they keep the franchise for? It would be better EMU operated if not just for the extra seats. Would an EMU keep time with the voyager considering the distance between the stops probably don't make much use of the 125mph. If only Coventry - Oxford was also scheduled for wires 350s on Manchester - Reading and Voyagers for doubling up.