Manchester - Scotland EMU stock

[swt_passenger]

The finalised WCML RUS suggests in a number of places that this stock should be 110 mph capabilty four car EMUs. They also suggest that a number of services should run as 8 car.

These are the units that are sometimes reported to be a small order of new 350s, 9 units maybe, and sometimes cascaded LM 350/1s (with LM getting new replacements), depending on where or how long ago you read about them...

 

[Liam]

It should really be a new order of tilting trains to operate the route at Pendolino/Voyager speeds.

 

[swt_passenger]

Yeah, that's bound to happen...

 

[cj_1985]

from mutterings over on the wnxx forum by "Modern Railways" journalist Tony Miles... the expected solution is an add on order of class 350s for LM who will sub lease a number of the units to the Transpenine Franchise...

from what i can remember from what he posted, because of the more up to date safety requirements etc class 350s can not be ordered for a new operator... hence why they would be ordered as an add-on to the existing LM units... which would allow the units to revert back to the LM franchise when either brand new units specifically for the TPEx services can be ordered, or when/if the manchester- scotland services change over to the ICWC franchise.

if memory serves me (it was posted a number of weeks ago) the situation hinges on what the DfT decide to do regards the new franchises over the next few years ie. the TPEx, Northern, and obviously the ICWC that is being micro managed at the moment...

 

[swt_passenger]

from mutterings over on the wnxx forum by "Modern Railways" journalist Tony Miles... the expected solution is an add on order of class 350s for LM...

Sure, but the main point I'm raising is the 110mph speed quoted - which suggests it can't be existing 350s...

 

[cj_1985]

Sure, but the main point I'm raising is the 110mph speed quoted - which suggests it can't be existing 350s...

yes... but when are the RUS specs expected/wanted to be implimented.

i dont think that the suggestion of class 350s on the TPEx services has ever been considered a long term solution...

taking into account muttering i have read here, and over on the scot-rail.co.uk site that when the Edinburgh to glasgow via falkirk line has finished being electrified.. that 125mph units could be on the cards, then IF the Manchest - scotland services still form part of the TPEx franchise spec... if TPEX still exists as an independant franchise as opposed to being absorbed into the Norther Franchise when its re-let... then an add-on order of the ScotRail units could be a long term solution... but again leads back to the long term question of what the DfT decide to impliment on the forthcoming new franchise/s...

IF the Manchester - scotland services are merged into the ICWC franchise then the stock there is already 125mph capable... be it displaced class 221s or class 390 pendolinos

IF the Manchester - scotland services are hived off into a seperate TOC/Franchise operation then suitable stock would need to be ordered...

IF the Manchester - Scotland services remain part of a long term TPEX specific franchise, then suitable EMU stock would need to be ordered anyway


eitherway... as i have said above... untill the DfT make their decisions, all we can do is guess...

 

[WatcherZero]

RUS's are also predicting whats needed in a decade or mores time, 350's as an interim solution is perfectly in keeping with a RUS strategy.

 

[Nym]

Well, there'll be spare pendos going soon if HS2 happens...

ie. HS2 stock will displace pendos to operate the other routes, a lot hindges on the HS2 decisions.

 

[WatcherZero]

We can work out how many would be freed from first phase, simply how many Pendolinos operate Euston-Birmingham only, exclude the services beyond Birmingham and make allowance for the units which convert to different services after terminating.

 

[Nym]

Thats easy

Avarage 90mins, 3tph working timetable, takes 9 diagrams.

All Euston Manchester traffic will become HS2 CC stock, meaning a bout, another 15 diagrams saved...

Liverpool, 3 dia.
Preson, 3 or 4 etc... All adds up, and the pendos have plenty of life left in them yet...

 

[swt_passenger]

RUS's are also predicting whats needed in a decade or mores time, 350's as an interim solution is perfectly in keeping with a RUS strategy.

Not in this case though.

It is referring to the stock to be introduced for the electrification of the route. There's no suggestion there that there'll be an interim solution AFAICS...

Doesn't mean it is impossible though, as always...

 

[Wolf_359]

Sure, but the main point I'm raising is the 110mph speed quoted - which suggests it can't be existing 350s...

LM's 350's are limited to 100mph, due to H & S rules about passengers in leading vehicles.

They are capable of higher speeds, I have heard that a de-restricted unit can run as fast a 140mph flat out. This would mean they could be remapped and run at 110mph, & a H&S excemption applied for. This would probabley be cheaper than buying a whole new fleet.

Don't forget I think 321's were intially built as 90mph units & then uprated to 100mph.

 

[WatcherZero]

Not in this case though.

It is referring to the stock to be introduced for the electrification of the route. There's no suggestion there that there'll be an interim solution AFAICS...

Doesn't mean it is impossible though, as always...

If you read it it specifies that it would be 4 car stock initially though 6 car stock in peak or fridays/weekends would be desirable to reduce standing, by the end of the RUS period it should be 8 car stock to meet expected growth in demand.

So yeah fully compatible with interim solution as its specified three different lengths to be used between 2013 and 2026.

 

[rail-britain]

LM's 350's are limited to 100mph, due to H & S rules about passengers in leading vehicles.

They are capable of higher speeds, I have heard that a de-restricted unit can run as fast a 140mph flat out. This would mean they could be remapped and run at 110mph, & a H&S excemption applied for. This would probabley be cheaper than buying a whole new fleet

Given the proposal is being suggested by Network Rail, it therefore follows that discussions are ongoing on this to perform this requirement

It may indeed be the case the next order for Class 350 units is 110mph
There would then be slightly reduced capacity on existing LM services, but slightly increased capacity on FTPE services

The proposal for ScotRail Glasgow - Edinburgh is to initially use 100mph 3 car units and to then use 125mph 6 car units
The OHLE and infrastructure will be to 125mph specification
TS have yet to make a decision on the rolling stock (hence the Class 380 specification to determine if 100mph is suitable)

 

[ukrob]

Thats easy

Avarage 90mins, 3tph working timetable, takes 9 diagrams.

All Euston Manchester traffic will become HS2 CC stock, meaning a bout, another 15 diagrams saved...

Liverpool, 3 dia.
Preson, 3 or 4 etc... All adds up, and the pendos have plenty of life left in them yet...

Manchester and Liverpool retain some Pendolino services. All the info and the number of units required is in a document on my pc (on phone just now). Can't remember the name of it. But anyway it calls for a total of about 28 Pendolinos required after phase 1 of HS2 opening to Birmingham.

 

[whhistle]

LM's 350's are limited to 100mph, due to H & S rules about passengers in leading vehicles.

Not saying you're wrong, but in the case of the Voyagers, surely they go faster than 100mph on the West Coast? Meridians on the Midland Mainline? even the Pioneers on the East Coast Mainline, now perhaps the 180's?

Seems a bit odd that these units can travel faster than 100 with passengers in the leading vehicle?

 

[Hydro]

Not saying you're wrong, but in the case of the Voyagers, surely they go faster than 100mph on the West Coast? Meridians on the Midland Mainline? even the Pioneers on the East Coast Mainline, now perhaps the 180's?

Seems a bit odd that these units can travel faster than 100 with passengers in the leading vehicle?

They have large crumple zones in the shape of the crew areas at either end. Desiro stock has passenger seating going right up to the rear of the cab bulkhead.

 

[ukrob]

Not saying you're wrong, but in the case of the Voyagers, surely they go faster than 100mph on the West Coast? Meridians on the Midland Mainline? even the Pioneers on the East Coast Mainline, now perhaps the 180's?

Seems a bit odd that these units can travel faster than 100 with passengers in the leading vehicle?

They don't have passengers in the front third or so of the vehicle - that is the rule being referred to

 

[rail-britain]

Don't forget I think 321's were intially built as 90mph units & then uprated to 100mph.

I've been looking into this one, but I can't anything for 90mph
You might have confused the Class 320 units, which were built as 90mph instead of 100mph

 

[Wolf_359]

I've been looking into this one, but I can't anything for 90mph
You might have confused the Class 320 units, which were built as 90mph instead of 100mph

I have double checked and from what I have been told the 321's were designed as a 90mph unit just like the 320's. Due to the need for them to run on the fast lines on the southern part of the WCML with a minimum speed of 100mph they were then upgraded to run at 100mph.

All this took place prior to the units being built, so they were built as 100mph units.

 

[SC318250]

Class 320 units, which were built as 90mph instead of 100mph

Class 320 units were built as 75mph

 

[Batman]

Given the proposal is being suggested by Network Rail, it therefore follows that discussions are ongoing on this to perform this requirement

It may indeed be the case the next order for Class 350 units is 110mph
There would then be slightly reduced capacity on existing LM services, but slightly increased capacity on FTPE services

The proposal for ScotRail Glasgow - Edinburgh is to initially use 100mph 3 car units and to then use 125mph 6 car units
The OHLE and infrastructure will be to 125mph specification
TS have yet to make a decision on the rolling stock (hence the Class 380 specification to determine if 100mph is suitable)

Slightly reduced capacity on LM services?

LM can't aford to loose any rolling stock at the moment. Thats why theres been talk on other threads about them increasing their DMU fleet and thats why they may get 10 extra 350's to relieve over-crowding on the Euston commuter services under the West Coast RUS.

 

[MCR247]

Slightly reduced capacity on LM services?

LM can't aford to loose any rolling stock at the moment. Thats why theres been talk on other threads about them increasing their DMU fleet and thats why they may get 10 extra 350's to relieve over-crowding on the Euston commuter services under the West Coast RUS.

You didn't read it in context

Trains that travel above 100 cannot carry pax in the first third of the leading vehicles. So these new 110mph 350s would lose some seating in the driving cars, so when TPE gets new stock to replace these new 350s, they will go to London Midland, meaning these units have less capacity that existing 350/1s, hence the reduced capacity for LM

 

[tbtc]

110mph seems a waste.

Either have 100 mph stock (with full use of the internal space for passengers - and compatible with other units like 350s) or have 125mph stock (with a lot of space used up by a crumple zone).

110 seems a compromise which doesn't satisfy anyone.

 

[Nym]

And an un-nessesarry one...

If the Manchester - Scotland trains are to provide an all stations service, then 100mph should be perfectly sufficent. Since the maximum linespeed is only 10mph higher without EPS on any sections of the line. And if I'm remembering right, without EPS there aren't many sections of line with linespeed over 100mph anyway. I'll edit when I've checked this.

Anyway, either have 125mph with EPS and give it to ICWC, or 100mph interurban units with killer accelaration, not some halfway hybrid that could be managed with shortened rakes of Mk3s and 90s.

OK, I'm offically bored of reading baseline documentation, but the basic upshot is, without EPS, it makes little difference having an extra 10mph, north of Carnforth there isn't much chance to use it.

 

[northwichcat]

If the Manchester - Scotland trains are to provide an all stations service, then 100mph should be perfectly sufficent. Since the maximum linespeed is only 10mph higher without EPS on any sections of the line. And if I'm remembering right, without EPS there aren't many sections of line with linespeed over 100mph anyway. I'll edit when I've checked this.

It's the double track section north of Preston that's key. It's 110/125mph speed limit depending on the class of train and because it's only double track and a busy line trains near to clear it as quickly as they can.

Manchester-Scotland is not an all stations service. It had extra stops instated as a result of the Manchester-Windermere service being cut back (like Manchester Oxford Road and Chorley.) However, once diverted via Wigan it is supposed to be a faster service than when Virgin operated it.

 

[tbtc]

Manchester-Scotland is not an all stations service. It had extra stops instated as a result of the Manchester-Windermere service being cut back (like Manchester Oxford Road and Chorley.) However, once diverted via Wigan it is supposed to be a faster service than when Virgin operated it.

Its pretty much all stops between Preston and Motherwell, and I don't expect this to change with EMU operation (partly to ensure that the 390s aren't slowed down by having to stop every service at Oxenholme, Penrith, Lockerbie etc)

 

[sprinterguy]

Anyway, either have 125mph with EPS and give it to ICWC, or 100mph interurban units with killer accelaration, not some halfway hybrid that could be managed with shortened rakes of Mk3s and 90s.

Exactly what you've said Nym. A 100mph maximum speed and nippy acceleration is all that is needed, rather than redesigning the entire train for a compromise 110mph maximum.

I would have thought that the benefit of EPS on the WCML north of Preston would be increasing speeds during cornering on that sinuous section of line rather than the possibility of long sections of flat out 125mph running. As such, while a non-tilting Desiro train would have to take the corners at the slower non-EPS rated speed it would be able to accelerate out of them onto the straights much faster than any other stock, which negates the limitations of running at non-EPS speed to an extent, combined with the already mentioned regular stop nature of the service.

 

[northwichcat]

Its pretty much all stops between Preston and Motherwell, and I don't expect this to change with EMU operation (partly to ensure that the 390s aren't slowed down by having to stop every service at Oxenholme, Penrith, Lockerbie etc)

The current TPE pattern is:
Preston (calls at)
Lancaster (calls at)
Oxenholme (calls at)
Penrith (Edinburgh services call at, Glasgow services do not)
Carlisle (calls at)
Carstairs (no services call at)
Lockerbie (selected services only)
Motherwell (one northbound service per day to set down only)

Remember when EMUs take over it is expected that they will either run Manchester-Preston non-stop or call at Wigan only (which may have set-down/pick-up restrictions.) Also if TPE NW goes back to the pre-Dec 2007 timetable then it'll mean Oxenholme could be omitted from the Scottish service and retain the same frequency of service.

 

[rail-britain]

Don't forget there will also be a slight improvement in acceleration with a EMU, over the current Class 185 (although this may lead to more station stops)
Equally, I would expect the design to be more like the Class 390 with traction motors spread along the unit
Furthermore, this same design may be used on Scotland - Birmingham
Thus giving a standard and tilt version (same as the Voyager and SuperVoyager)

Keep an eye on what EMU ordered for EGIP (Edinburgh - Glasgow) as the units will be designed for 125mph operation (but initially operated at 100mph)
This will be a prelude to what EMU will be ordered for the WCML