Transport for Wales Class 230

[Caaardiff]

Are the cancellation % figures really any worse than those in South East Wales?

The difference with South Wales is TfWs main Depot at Canton is located there, so unit failures can be recovered by other units either on depot or by utilising other units in the area.
The Bidston line is unique in that it only really has the 230s planned for it and it's rare to see more than 3-4 of the fleet of 5 available. So there's fewer options to replace them with. On a number of occasions 197s have stepped in at short notice or been pre-planned to cover but they aren't always available to do that.

 

[Djgr]

The difference with South Wales is TfWs main Depot at Canton is located there, so unit failures can be recovered by other units either on depot or by utilising other units in the area.
The Bidston line is unique in that it only really has the 230s planned for it and it's rare to see more than 3-4 of the fleet of 5 available. So there's fewer options to replace them with. On a number of occasions 197s have stepped in at short notice or been pre-planned to cover but they aren't always available to do that.

The point I was making was that we are not presented with the cancellation % data for the South Wales services and so we don't actually have any evidence that Borderlands is worse.

Compared to Northern they don't look too bad!

 

[Invincible]

.The Bidston line is unique in that it only really has the 230s planned for it and it's rare to see more than 3-4 of the fleet of 5 available.

Is there any reason why the Birkenhead depot can't get all 5 serviceable? Lack of time when there are other trains to service, or training, or a lack of parts?.

The Ford engines should be reliable and easy to service, but few have good knowledge of hybrid battery train operation, but likely to be more used in other locations.

 

[Zontar]

Is there any reason why the Birkenhead depot can't get all 5 serviceable? Lack of time when there are other trains to service, or training, or a lack of parts?.

The Ford engines should be reliable and easy to service, but few have good knowledge of hybrid battery train operation, but likely to be more used in other locations.

A big factor is charging the batteries. This can take up to 3 days. If it's not charged, it can't go out.

 

[Invincible]

A big factor is charging the batteries. This can take up to 3 days. If it's not charged, it can't go out.

Would have thought in hybrid mode the trains would then operate as diesel, then trickle charged when running or braking, until the batteries have enough charge to provide power (rather than diesel) when in stations?

 

[Elecman]

A big factor is charging the batteries. This can take up to 3 days. If it's not charged, it can't go out.

3 days to charge a battery, what are they using, a 13 amp socket ??

 

[sd0733]

0 serviceable 230s are currently expected tomorrow with 197s covering.

 

[Caaardiff]

Is there any reason why the Birkenhead depot can't get all 5 serviceable? Lack of time when there are other trains to service, or training, or a lack of parts?.

The Ford engines should be reliable and easy to service, but few have good knowledge of hybrid battery train operation, but likely to be more used in other locations.

Think lipstick & pig.

A Depot can spend 24/7 on a unit if they want to. If it's unreliable, doesn't mean they can get it to work consistently.

 

[Zontar]

Would have thought in hybrid mode the trains would then operate as diesel, then trickle charged when running or braking, until the batteries have enough charge to provide power (rather than diesel) when in stations?

This is part of why they are so unreliable. They often have fitters riding on them as they are so unreliable, I spoke to one who told me how bad the batteries are and don't regen enough power, and then have to be charged which can take anything from overnight to 3 days.

 

[Invincible]

spoke to one who told me how bad the batteries are and don't regen enough power,

Thought they had new batteries.
Anyway the Ford diesel engines should be able to work the trains without the batteries.
The original idea of the hybrid operation was to reduce pollution in stations.

 

[Sheridan]

Thought they had new batteries.
Anyway the Ford diesel engines should be able to work the trains without the batteries.
The original idea of the hybrid operation was to reduce pollution in stations.

From what I’ve read on here (but unfortunately can’t find it readily), I believe that the engines aren’t connected to the transmission in any way, it’s essentially an all-electric train and the engines are there purely as generators.

 

[Invincible]

From what I’ve read on here (but unfortunately can’t find it readily), I believe that the engines aren’t connected to the transmission in any way, it’s essentially an all-electric train and the engines are there purely as generator

From

Establishing a secure connection ...

Each unit has two batteries on each driving motor car and four diesel gensets on the unpowered middle car. The gensets are used primarily to charge the batteries and in conjunction with regenerative braking this reduces fuel costs and emissions. The trains have geofencing installed so the gensets can be automatically switched off in stations or sensitive areas.

Not sure if this is correct as it says "primarily" so there could be times when the gensets are powering the motors and just trickle charging batteries when travelling station to station?.
Also the engines do not seem to currently automatically get switched on and off when in the geo zone of a station, and currently idle?
Guess it depends how the control boxes are set up and how good the computer software is? Presumably the fitters will have laptops (like on the Ealing tests) so they can monitor how well the batteries are charging and discharging though the day?.

Does not seem there is protection to prevent batteries getting fully discharged, and an option for the gensets to direct feed the motors?.

 

[DavidGrain]

This video of Adrian Shooter might be interesting to look back at about the Diesel Battery operation

 

[Prime586]

Is there any reason why the Birkenhead depot can't get all 5 serviceable? Lack of time when there are other trains to service, or training, or a lack of parts?.

The Ford engines should be reliable and easy to service, but few have good knowledge of hybrid battery train operation, but likely to be more used in other locations.

The Ford engines are not particurlarly reliable, as they were not designed with operation as a generator in mind. The cramped and poor design of their installation in the rafts (and the rafts to the underframe) exacerbate these issues (as gone over earlier in the thread).

The diesel-electric WMT Class 230s were withdrawn from the Marston Vale line in part because of the genset reliability, and they had a pair of genset rafts in each of the two cars. The TfW 230s have 4 genset rafts in the centre car and battery rafts in the end cars, so have the same generator power output as the WMT units but with an additional car and two battery rafts to deal with

Also covered ealier in the thread, Lithium batteries do not tolerate trickle charging like lead-acid batteries. They have to be discharged before they can be charged. The TfW 230s are driven from the batteries for acceleration, with the gensets recharging them once up to speed (and the charge is also topped up with regernative braking, until the batteires are fully charged in which case the recovered energy has to be dumped).

 

[Invincible]

The Ford engines are not particurlarly reliable, as they were not designed with operation as a generator in mind. The cramped and poor design of their installation in the rafts (and the rafts to the underframe) exacerbate these issues (as gone over earlier in the thread).

The diesel-electric WMT Class 230s were withdrawn from the Marston Vale line in part because of the genset reliability, and they had a pair of genset rafts in each of the two cars. The TfW 230s have 4 genset rafts in the centre car and battery rafts in the end cars, so have the same generator power output as the WMT units but with an additional car and two battery rafts to deal with

Also covered ealier in the thread, Lithium batteries do not tolerate trickle charging like lead-acid batteries. They have to be discharged before they can be charged. The TfW 230s are driven from the batteries for acceleration, with the gensets recharging them once up to speed (and the charge is also topped up with regernative braking, until the batteires are fully charged in which case the recovered energy has to be dumped).

Thanks for the detail, I meant the Ford engines are reliable in vans and pickups, but can see why they are not suitable for 230s.They are still not switching on and off in stations.
I am more used to lead acid batteries but now can see getting the charge/ discharge and temperature right on the more efficient Lithium Ion batteries is critical.
While we will see more battery trains, there is still a need to improve and sometimes use hybrid diesel/ battery operations.

I see on real-time website 230009 and 10 worked with a 197 yesterday. Hopefully the Birkenhead depot can get the other 3 230s sorted?

 

[Philip Roberts]

Thanks for the detail, I meant the Ford engines are reliable in vans and pickups, but can see why they are not suitable for 230s.They are still not switching on and off in stations.
I am more used to lead acid batteries but now can see getting the charge/ discharge and temperature right on the more efficient Lithium Ion batteries is critical.
While we will see more battery trains, there is still a need to improve and sometimes use hybrid diesel/ battery operations.

I see on real-time website 230009 and 10 worked with a 197 yesterday. Hopefully the Birkenhead depot can get the other 3 230s sorted?

006 is on today

 

[FrontSideBus]

The really should look at binning the batteries and couple the output of the generators direct to the traction motors... I bet that would improve reliability a lot as well as saving some weight!

 

[Invincible]

The really should look at binning the batteries and couple the output of the generators direct to the traction motors... I bet that would improve reliability a lot as well as saving some weight!

Hopefully 006 will be reliable.

The industry seems more moving towards more battery use with more fast charging points, and reducing the need for onboard diesels.

 

[DelW]

The really should look at binning the batteries and couple the output of the generators direct to the traction motors... I bet that would improve reliability a lot as well as saving some weight!

I think the power output is probably insufficient though. Per the current "Rolling Stock Review", both the LNR and TfW 230s have 789bhp total engine power. The LNR version worked as you suggest, but those only had two coaches, giving 394bhp per coach, roughly similar to second-generation DMUs. The TfW ones would only have 263bhp per coach, so I suspect they need the energy storage of the batteries to provide adequate peak power for acceleration and gradients. The Wrexham line is probably hillier than the Marston Vale too.

 

[tfw756rider]

I think the power output is probably insufficient though. Per the current "Rolling Stock Review", both the LNR and TfW 230s have 789bhp total engine power. The LNR version worked as you suggest, but those only had two coaches, giving 394bhp per coach, roughly similar to second-generation DMUs. The TfW ones would only have 263bhp per coach, so I suspect they need the energy storage of the batteries to provide adequate peak power for acceleration and gradients. The Wrexham line is probably hillier than the Marston Vale too.

263bhp per vehicle is in-between the 225bhp per vehicle of the (Cummins-re-engined) 142s/143s/144s/141113 and the 285bhp per vehicle of the 150s/153s/155s/156s,

while 394bhp per vehicle is in-between the 350bhp per vehicle of most 158s and the 422bhp per vehicle of the 170s (yes, there is a less common 400bhp 158 engine).

 

[Peter Sarf]

263bhp per vehicle is in-between the 210bhp per vehicle of the (Cummins-re-engined) 142s/143s/144s/141113 and the 285bhp per vehicle of the 150s/153s/155s/156s,

while 394bhp per vehicle is in-between the 350bhp per vehicle of most 158s and the 422bhp per vehicle of the 170s (yes, there is a less common 400bhp 158 engine).

If more power were needed then engine rafts could replace the battery rafts.
But that is not the point - the desire was to use Hybrid technology to achieve the power required for acceleration on the demanding Broderlands line with its low line speed coupled with many stops and gradients.

 

[Invincible]

If more power were needed then engine rafts could replace the battery rafts.
But that is not the point - the desire was to use Hybrid technology to achieve the power required for acceleration on the demanding Broderlands line with its low line speed coupled with many stops and gradients.

06 and 10 230s with a 197 out today.
There is an ongoing debate on hybrid cars using small ICE engines as "range extenders", which could also apply to hybrid trains?

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/hybrid/are-range-extenders-next-big-thing

 

[Peter Sarf]

06 and 10 230s with a 197 out today.
There is an ongoing debate on hybrid cars using small ICE engines as "range extenders", which could also apply to hybrid trains?

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/hybrid/are-range-extenders-next-big-thing

Indeed. Hybrid theoretically increases the range by reducing the reliance on charging - especially mid journey. On the railway the ability to supplement the batteries with a small diesel is quite tempting (not least as a rescue capability). Then to recharge the batteries with braking energy, supplemented by the engine where necessary. On the railway there is a lot more steady speed achieved with a lot less rolling resistance than in the case of a car - almost coasting. So more time with the engine off than is possible on a higher friction road (except when stuck in a queue - Larger towns).

 

[Zontar]

More cancellations today as units batteries not charged in time for service.

 

[Invincible]

More cancellations today as units batteries not charged in time for service.

Looking quickly at realtime trains the 06:47 was cancelled due to a problem at the depot (presumably they lost the 13 amp mains extension lead?).
But later 7 and 9 ran services with a 197.
Today units 6 and 9 are running services with a 197.
So recently 4 230s have run, with the exception of unit 8.

So if they can get unit 8 working, should be able to rotate 5 units, so 3 can run each day, assuming they can keep the batteries charged? We shall see?

 

[sd0733]

So if they can get unit 8 working, should be able to rotate 5 units, so 3 can run each day, assuming they can keep the batteries charged? We shall see?

The set yesterday was taking charge extremely slowly thats why its wasn't sent out.

230008 is at Crewe awaiting the wheel lathe I believe, theyre not cleared to any other lathe so it won't be back until thats done.
There's only currently 2 diagrams, the 3rd is a 197 and comes from and finishes at Chester so while thats the case

 

[9143180]

At what point do TFW just cut their losses and accept that this was a stupid idea from the beginning, electrify the line, and order some proper trains?

 

[WirralLine]

At what point do TFW just cut their losses and accept that this was a stupid idea from the beginning, electrify the line, and order some proper trains?

One things for certain, there won't be any electrification of the line! I think realistically the 230s will be blagged along until IPEMU 777/1s can take over the line. Of course, this wont be any time soon.

 

[Zontar]

At what point do TFW just cut their losses and accept that this was a stupid idea from the beginning, electrify the line, and order some proper trains?

There is nothing they can do, since they bought them to stop viva rail going bust....who then went bust.

Absolute white elephant for them. As other posters have stated, they will crawl with them until they can be replaced with something better permanently, more 197s in the mix I'm sure

 

[Invincible]

One things for certain, there won't be any electrification of the line! I think realistically the 230s will be blagged along until IPEMU 777/1s can take over the line. Of course, this wont be any time soon.

Are the battery 777s now reliably being charged by 3rd rail to work to Headbolt Lane? The 777s seem to have had a lot of teething issues?.
But guess the hybrid 230s (and 484s in Island line) have at least another 10 years life left if GWR run 23001 abs can help supply parts?
Edit: From the D78:,wiki
"The stock started being replaced by S Stock in 2016.[6] It was replaced about 15 years short of its intended lifespan,"
Then stored, so presume the 230s and 484s have at least 10 years life left?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Oct 2025 ==

From May https://www.gov.wales/metro-go-network-north-wales
Which does seem to suggest the 5 230s will last till 2035. Then replaced by new trains, which might be battery powered 777s, or another type of new train?.

increase train services between Wrexham and Bidston to 2 trains per hour within the next three years, ahead of the introduction of 4 trains per hour that will run direct between Wrexham and Liverpool by 2035.
The existing Borderlands Line will also be renamed the Wrexham – Liverpool line.