Cross Country - Get Some Extra Carriges

[PhilipW]

There always seem to be lots of old ex-Virgin Mark III carriages standing outside Eastleigh works.
They obviously need money spent to bring them back into use. I always get the impression that there are carriages around if the train comapnies really want them.

 

[jopsuk]

What would you use to pull them on XC routes though? If set up with a 67 and a DVT, they'll be slower than Voyagers- both where 125mph running is permitted, and away from stops. it would also need extensive work to be done (as with the WSMR (now Chiltern) stock) to the carriages, DVT and even locos. With 47s they'd be even slower AND would have to be top and tailed.

 

[PhilipW]

What would you use to pull them on XC routes though? If set up with a 67 and a DVT, they'll be slower than Voyagers- both where 125mph running is permitted, and away from stops. it would also need extensive work to be done (as with the WSMR (now Chiltern) stock) to the carriages, DVT and even locos. With 47s they'd be even slower AND would have to be top and tailed.

Sure, there are practical difficulties, but most problems can be solved. Just to give the reply "wrong sort of carriages" like "wrong sort of snow" seems very defeatist.

There may be many ways of solving this problem. I'll give you one, perhaps there are better ones.
-- create a new train with some refurbished Mark IIIs and loco hauled (like Workington North shuttle) to use on some select XC services. Yes, I acknowledge it will be slower but it will give extra capacity which is what this thread was all about
-- that frees up some Voyagers which can then be used to double up on other services to create extra capacity there.

Sure, this is not a perfect solution. Hey, but it's a practical start to fix known problems now and not wait for any "yet to be ordered (if ever)" new trains.

 

[Minilad]

What would you use to pull them on XC routes though? If set up with a 67 and a DVT, they'll be slower than Voyagers- both where 125mph running is permitted, and away from stops. it would also need extensive work to be done (as with the WSMR (now Chiltern) stock) to the carriages, DVT and even locos. With 47s they'd be even slower AND would have to be top and tailed.

Don't forget all the retraining of train crew that would be required too.

 

[sulli_os]

Person 1: But what stock would you use?
Person 2: The stock ordered by the TOC.
Person 1: But the TOC didn't order any stock.
Person 2: Why not?
Person 1: Because it wasn't in the franchise specification.
Person 2: WHY NOT?

It really does come down to the inadequacy of the DfT at the last round of XC franchising.

In the mean time, could some HSTs not be "borrowed" from another franchise in exchange for some voyagers?

 

[sprinterguy]

Also there is the issue that the engines used on the Voyagers are no longer in production and I'm not sure if the jigs for the Voyagers still exist.

If Bombardier are offering "Project Thor" as a practical solution (I still can't work out the maths behind the proposed 123 new pantograph coaches and 21 converted existing carriages), then I presume that there is no barrier to building further coaches for the Voyagers. They've got enough grunt to handle the additional weight of an extra unpowered trailer anyway.

 

[DarloRich]

Yet again the Glasgow Central - Penzance was once again to capacity by the time it had reached Leeds which then had the usual people trying to force the doors open and board the already crowded train as the conductor tried to close them.

I know this capacity issue is discussed on here often but can someone please tell Cross Country that we are not Cows and deserve better in 2011 than being forced to stand for unacceptable durations on their sardine services.

Rant over.

Agreed, i really dislike Voayagers - but how do you suggest it is sorted out?

Voyagers are not suitable for the services they are run on - but how do you sort it out?

There are no extra vehicles, there is very little rolling stock unused that is suitable for XC services ( convert 504 units perhaps ) there are not many suitbale locos even if you could find the stock.

Much as I hate travelling on the bloody things and I try to avoid XC if i can, i just cant see a way to easily increase capacity, no matter who runs the service

 

[MCR247]

If Bombardier are offering "Project Thor" as a practical solution (I still can't work out the maths behind the proposed 123 new pantograph coaches and 21 converted existing carriages), then I presume that there is no barrier to building further coaches for the Voyagers. They've got enough grunt to handle the additional weight of an extra unpowered trailer anyway.

...and if you wanted to add more than one, you can go through a length proccess so you end up with something like:

20 x 7 220 with 7 x QSK19
20 x 7 221 with 7 x new engine


etc etc

 

[Masbroughlad]

Sure, there are practical difficulties, but most problems can be solved. Just to give the reply "wrong sort of carriages" like "wrong sort of snow" seems very defeatist.

There may be many ways of solving this problem. I'll give you one, perhaps there are better ones.
-- create a new train with some refurbished Mark IIIs and loco hauled (like Workington North shuttle) to use on some select XC services. Yes, I acknowledge it will be slower but it will give extra capacity which is what this thread was all about
-- that frees up some Voyagers which can then be used to double up on other services to create extra capacity there.

Sure, this is not a perfect solution. Hey, but it's a practical start to fix known problems now and not wait for any "yet to be ordered (if ever)" new trains.

Sounds a good solution to me. Its the type of thing I was getting at but put far better by you!

Doubled up Voyagers on 'fast' XC services, slower Mk3s and locos on others.

There ARE ways around problems if people think differently. Not enough paths - look at inventive ways of finding them (better solution lay more track - lol).

I think our railways need a shift in thinking - more to service provision, not totally profit driven.

 

[Greenback]

I completely agree that there needs to be a shift in thinking, but I can't see it happening for a good while yet.

There are many problems now inherent in the XC franchise. It is true that the Voyagers are completely inadequate for the routes and markets they serve, but the proposed solutions oftne cause their own problems, most of whcih come down to money in the end in some way.

As an example, the idea of creating a fleet of LHCS to run slower services sounds good, but the slower speeds would probably require more crew diagrams to operate the same services, meaning higher costs, higher track access charges (higher costs), along with increased numbers of locomotives and carriages on hire (higher costs). Ina ddition to this the slower trains would use more track capacity, meaning that in some places less trains might be run.

 

[Masbroughlad]

I completely agree that there needs to be a shift in thinking, but I can't see it happening for a good while yet.

There are many problems now inherent in the XC franchise. It is true that the Voyagers are completely inadequate for the routes and markets they serve, but the proposed solutions oftne cause their own problems, most of whcih come down to money in the end in some way.

As an example, the idea of creating a fleet of LHCS to run slower services sounds good, but the slower speeds would probably require more crew diagrams to operate the same services, meaning higher costs, higher track access charges (higher costs), along with increased numbers of locomotives and carriages on hire (higher costs). Ina ddition to this the slower trains would use more track capacity, meaning that in some places less trains might be run.

On some routes (XC for example) would a train that carried three times as many people but ran every hour instead of half hourly be a bad thing? I wouldn't mind if I knew I was getting a (comfy) seat on a long journey.

 

[scarby]

It's all symptomatic of the appalling state that our railways are currently in, because could you imagine SNCF putting on a 4 car unit on a TGV route between Lyon and Marseilles?

Totally spot on.

Why is that when I go to Germany, I enjoy huge IC trains, loco-hauled, using ageing but well-maintained and comfortable stock that has all been retained rather than chucking it on the scrapheap?

 

[Greenback]

On some routes (XC for example) would a train that carried three times as many people but ran every hour instead of half hourly be a bad thing? I wouldn't mind if I knew I was getting a (comfy) seat on a long journey.

Personally, I agree. But many people were attracted to the train because of the higher service frequency offered by the new trains. A reduction to hourly would, I suggest lead to reduced passenger numbers and lower revenue.

Looking at the big picture, that is the opposite of what we should be doing opinion, which is to encourage modal shift towards rail. Although it would reduce overcrowding a lot, which would be very popular on here!

Totally spot on.

Why is that when I go to Germany, I enjoy huge IC trains, loco-hauled, using ageing but well-maintained and comfortable stock that has all been retained rather than chucking it on the scrapheap?

As mentioned previously, it's difficult to make an accurate and meaningful comparison with continental networks!

 

[Orange Box]

On some routes (XC for example) would a train that carried three times as many people but ran every hour instead of half hourly be a bad thing? I wouldn't mind if I knew I was getting a (comfy) seat on a long journey.

Its only the core that needs to be half hourly. Get some nice long rakes on them and then you have enough Voyagers to play with for the outlying bits, but then you'd loose out on ORCATS revenue which is the main reason Plymouth is half hourly in the first place.

 

[Zoe]

Its only the core that needs to be half hourly. Get some nice long rakes on them and then you have enough Voyagers to play with for the outlying bits, but then you'd loose out on ORCATS revenue which is the main reason Plymouth is half hourly in the first place.

Plymouth is not half hourly, it is hourly. Only the core network is currently half hourly.

 

[sprinterguy]

Sounds a good solution to me. Its the type of thing I was getting at but put far better by you!

Doubled up Voyagers on 'fast' XC services, slower Mk3s and locos on others.

There ARE ways around problems if people think differently. Not enough paths - look at inventive ways of finding them (better solution lay more track - lol).

The introduction of loco hauled services on Crosscountry would work best (if it would work at all) on the services with the least frequent stops. There isn't a huge amount of the XC network that is passed for 125mph operation, and if 125mph capable (Though currently 110mph limited) class 67s were used, the main aspect that loco hauled would lose out on compared to Voyagers would be acceleration: If the loco hauled formations were in use on limited stop services, while Voyagers cover the other services that make intermediate stops over the same sections of route, then they might be able to keep time. It would also be an idea to keep the loco hauled trains off the sections of XC that are passed for 125mph operation as much as possible.

As such, I would advocate the Newcastle to Southampton corridor as an ideal candidate, not least because that route is currently the dominant domain of four car 220s rather than five car 221s, and in an ideal world, but assuming no intentions to lengthen the Voyagers, I'd like to see the four car units running around doubled up as much as possible. The Small Heath - Banbury section of the route already has loco hauled workings that the XC loco hauled services would fit into the same timings as, and many trains terminate short at Reading and hence miss out the most regular stop section of route between there and Southampton where pathing the slower loco hauled formations would be a bigger problem.

Sooo....Does anyone know where I might be able to get hold of ten/eleven rakes of locos and stock (preferably about six carriages long) from? I think this is the stumbling block at which my plan really falls apart.

 

[MCR247]

Irish MK3s...?

 

[The Planner]

the main aspect that loco hauled would lose out on compared to Voyagers would be acceleration:

And dwells, you would need sliding doors that could match Voyager door cycles.

The Small Heath - Banbury section of the route already has loco hauled workings that the XC loco hauled services would fit into the same timings as

They sit in 168 times, they arent specifically timed as LHCS

 

[sprinterguy]

And dwells, you would need sliding doors that could match Voyager door cycles.

Good point, that's another reason why using loco hauled on services with as few stops as possible would be the best idea, short of fitting powered doors which would of course be more ideal.

They sit in 168 times, they arent specifically timed as LHCS

Ah, fair enough, I thought the loco hauled services might be timed differently to the 168s. Hopefully that would also mean that similar loco hauled formations being hypothetically used by Crosscountry would also sit neatly alongside the Chiltern timetable.

 

[TEW]

Plymouth is not half hourly, it is hourly. Only the core network is currently half hourly.

Plymouth was increased to 3 train per 2 hours under Operation Princess, but that was cut back to the current hourly level when Operation Princess didn't work.

 

[Failed Unit]

Princess was once described as the UKs biggest ORCATS raid. I remember a 2 hourly Dundee - Birmingham (and beyond service) via Leeds

Again hindsight is a wonderful thing but it was never going to work, the sets were too tightly diagrammed and the turnarounds were too small. The Dundee's only got as far as Edinburgh on many occasion.

 

[jopsuk]

...and if you wanted to add more than one, you can go through a length proccess so you end up with something like:

20 x 7 220 with 7 x QSK19
20 x 7 221 with 7 x new engine


etc etc

I'd even suggest that if heavy work is being done, and there's no plans to allow XC services to tilt, that the tilt equipment is removed from the 221s and the lighter bogies of the 220s fitted.

Plus- that Class 73 re-engine project is supposed to be using QSK19s. So presumably they're not entirely obsolete yet?

 

[button_boxer]

Why is that when I go to Germany, I enjoy huge IC trains, loco-hauled, using ageing but well-maintained and comfortable stock that has all been retained rather than chucking it on the scrapheap?

... and running maybe half a dozen services per day on a given route as opposed to two per hour on XC.

 

[tbtc]

I know this is a daft idea which will never happen, but if you electrified the MML you'd get 27x 222s plus a dozen HSTs...

 

[tom1649]

I know this is a daft idea which will never happen, but if you electrified the MML you'd get 27x 222s plus a dozen HSTs...

Surely it's only a matter of time until it is electrified. I read that it depends on what's going to happen with HS2. Even with HS2 it should be electrified eventually.

 

[87015]

... and running maybe half a dozen services per day on a given route as opposed to two per hour on XC.

Really? What routes between the main cities are those, timetables suggest a normal service hourly between nearly everywhere. Bet nowhere with the importance of Liverpool has no IC/EC/ICE services from anywhere but the capital either.

Anyway, it could easily be argued the whole idea of a crosscountry network should be to provide infrequent specific end-to-end services which come together to provide a more frequent service over the core bit.

 

[Smethwickian]

But many people were attracted to the train because of the higher service frequency offered by the new trains. A reduction to hourly would, I suggest lead to reduced passenger numbers and lower revenue.

But I for one rarely enjoy the luxury of a half-hourly frequency over any great distance simply because walk-up fares are too expensive. I generally have to book in advance which means I have precisely one train to choose from - the one I've booked. So whether that was part of an hourly service with longer trains or half-hourly with shorter is entirely immaterial.

 

[Greenback]

But I for one rarely enjoy the luxury of a half-hourly frequency over any great distance simply because walk-up fares are too expensive. I generally have to book in advance which means I have precisely one train to choose from - the one I've booked. So whether that was part of an hourly service with longer trains or half-hourly with shorter is entirely immaterial.

You have hit upon one of the problems of the XC network. It is a long distance service that is used by a great many short distance travellers, particularly within the central core.

The problem of the huge gulf between walk up and advance fares is not unique to XC, and is more of a national issue. However, it's worth saying that the more trains that run on a route the more choice someone has about which trains to use, price permitting.

 

[anthony263]

Sooo....Does anyone know where I might be able to get hold of ten/eleven rakes of locos and stock (preferably about six carriages long) from? I think this is the stumbling block at which my plan really falls apart.

Look in the back pages of the latest copy of modern railways, Irish rail are asking for offers for their 82 MK3 carriages.

Also in the latest issue of modern railways is a article about traxx loco's and refurbishing the Mk3 stock.

 

[sprinterguy]

Look in the back pages of the latest copy of modern railways, Irish rail are asking for offers for their 82 MK3 carriages.

Also in the latest issue of modern railways is a article about traxx loco's and refurbishing the Mk3 stock.

Well, I do hope that something becomes of the Irish mark 3s one way or another, as there seems to be endless speculation over how useful they would be if they were shipped over here. It would be nice to see an end to the uncertainty: While it's a complete no brainer on paper to employ them providing extra capacity in the UK, the reality offers a lot more hurdles to get round before they could be put into service.

If an idea hasn't been specified in a franchise agreement down to the last letter, I tend to hold out little hope of witnessing it taking place: The current system of privatisation really does nothing to encourage innovation or expansion: The sorts of things that the passengers would like to see in a time of travel demand growth!