Future of the 350/2s

[Bletchleyite]

Except that 350s won’t multi with anything else so as long as spares are available, why change it all out?

Commonality of parts? You could always MU two units with different PIS setups anyway, you'd just have to configure the two separately each time (which is hassle but hardly a total showstopper).

 

[The_Train]

I'd personally take a 350 over a 331 with their bone shaking ride quality. I'd also take one over a 323 too tbh, even though I like 323's, I mean they ride well and have comfortable seats but they are just too dated IMO.

Walking bare foot over broken glass is more comfortable than a 331

 

[Bletchleyite]

Walking bare foot over broken glass is more comfortable than a 331

I don't get this at all. I find them absolutely fine. They have the thicker cushion version of the ironing board which isn't rock hard, the legroom is decent, there are lots of tables (arguably too many) and so on. I don't overly like Northern's stark blue interiors, but the 350s will get those too if Northern take them.

 

[FrontSideBus]

Try sitting over one of the bogies, you can feel and hear it clattering about underneath as if something is broken!
The 397's are even worse as they run at higher speeds and you are often sat there with your head being thrown about left and right!

 

[bramling]

No, if it is too old, then it gets replaced rather than retrofitted. So clearly the 323s were not too old.

Another example: the 458s had their PIS screens replaced when around six years old, due to change of legislation. Did that make them too old?

It isn’t sensible to be scrapping rolling stock just because it needs some (relatively minor) modifications. It isn’t always the case that “let’s buy new” is the solution to all problems either - look at how many of the recent new fleets have proved very problematic.

One difficulty with having large standard fleets is that if they start running into problems some years down the line, it becomes a major issue. I have my doubts as to how well the IET fleets will hold up in the medium term, but we’ll see.

At least something like a 323 is a known quantity. As, to be fair, is the 350 fleet - though note the EMR Desiro fleet hasn’t covered itself in glory since introduction.

 

[skyhigh]

Except that 350s won’t multi with anything else so as long as spares are available, why change it all out?

Simply because it's easier to maintain and update 2 different types of PIS (Televic on the CAF units and TrainFX on the rest) without adding in a third type.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Simply because it's easier to maintain and update 2 different types of PIS (Televic on the CAF units and TrainFX on the rest) without adding in a third type.

That might well be an argument to go with Televic rather than TrainFX on the 350s given that both will likely be around long after all the 15x are scrapped.

 

[The_Train]

I don't get this at all. I find them absolutely fine. They have the thicker cushion version of the ironing board which isn't rock hard, the legroom is decent, there are lots of tables (arguably too many) and so on. I don't overly like Northern's stark blue interiors, but the 350s will get those too if Northern take them.

It's nothing to do with the seats and all to do with the actual ride quality of the units. They are shocking and going over points feels like the equivalent of hitting a massive pot hole in your car

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's nothing to do with the seats and all to do with the actual ride quality of the units. They are shocking and going over points feels like the equivalent of hitting a massive pot hole in your car

I'd agree the ride quality is bad but I don't find it a killer, certainly not compared to the terrible seats (you can feel the framework like a Sophia), lack of aircon and poor window view* in a 323 or the 3+2 seating in a 350/2.

* I don't understand why the window film on 323s causes so much visible distortion when it doesn't on other units.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

* I don't understand why the window film on 323s causes so much visible distortion when it doesn't on other units.

It's probably not applied properly; I've noticed the same on quite a few units in and around London - and often the next window along is perfectly fine.

 

[xotGD]

Walking bare foot over broken glass is more comfortable than a 331

I'd take a 331 ahead of a 333 any day of the week. Unfortunately, traveling with an advance doesn't give me that option!

Basically, when it comes to units I'll take anything 2+2 with tables ahead of anything 3+2.

 

[DJH1971]

Any more regarding if Northern are still interested in them?

 

[Peter0124]

Why else is it that the /2's are worse than the /1, /3, and /4 fleet other than the 3+2 seating?

 

[43102EMR]

Why else is it that the /2's are worse than the /1, /3, and /4 fleet other than the 3+2 seating?

Minus the seating layout, they aren’t even that bad - it’s just that they’re owned by Porterbrook and thus were deemed “too expensive” by WMT to lease compared to ordering the 730s (unlike the other 3 subclasses which are all owned by Angel Trains).

Sadly they’re now also worse from an internal condition perspective as they haven’t received the same refurbishment the other units had.

 

[Mamorin]

Any more regarding if Northern are still interested in them?

They are not.

The latest issue of Modern Railways has interview with Northern's Strategic Development Director and Northern's Director of New Rolling Stock Programmes.

The interview is about Northern's new trains tender and it says that the new trains will replace all but the CAF fleet.

So Northern are not taking the 350/2s.

The 323s do have to be gone by 2031 due to lack of ETCS, but again the 323s will be replaced by new trains.

 

[brad465]

The 323s do have to be gone by 2031 due to lack of ETCS, but again the 323s will be replaced by new trains.

Apologies if I've missed this - where on the Northern network will have ETCS from 2031, apart from ECML sections?

 

[Mamorin]

In the interview in Modern Railways, Northern's Director of New Rolling Stock Programmes mentions that the West Coast Main Line will get ETCS.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The interview is about Northern's new trains tender and it says that the new trains will replace all but the CAF fleet.

So Northern are not taking the 350/2s.

Not sure how you get between those sentences given that the new stock is AT LEAST five years off before it will turn a wheel in service, possibly longer.

 

[bluenoxid]

Apologies if I've missed this - where on the Northern network will have ETCS from 2031, apart from ECML sections?

I haven’t seen dates for Manchester-York via Huddersfield but TPE appear to be engaging an ETCS fitment programme for their 185 fleet.

 

[tfw756rider]

They are not.

The latest issue of Modern Railways has interview with Northern's Strategic Development Director and Northern's Director of New Rolling Stock Programmes.

The interview is about Northern's new trains tender and it says that the new trains will replace all but the CAF fleet.

So Northern are not taking the 350/2s.

The 323s do have to be gone by 2031 due to lack of ETCS, but again the 323s will be replaced by new trains.

Not sure how you get between those sentences given that the new stock is AT LEAST five years off before it will turn a wheel in service, possibly longer.

Exactly @Bletchleyite - no disrepect to @Mamorin, but Northern could still take the 350/2s as a temporary replacement for the 323s until the new trains enter service (similar to how when the Transport for Wales 158s are available, they could temporarily replace some of the oldest Northern 150s).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exactly @Bletchleyite - no disrepect to @Mamorin, but Northern could still take the 350/2s as a temporary replacement for the 323s until the new trains enter service (similar to how when the Transport for Wales 158s are available, they could temporarily replace some of the oldest Northern 150s).

Indeed so. I would be entirely unsurprised to see either the 350/2s or the TfW 158s at Northern (or both) as a short term measure (the 158s might be easier due to not being an entirely new type, though the ETCS would need to be removed or the vehicles used to lengthen existing units to 3 car rather than running alone), and that isn't incompatible with the new order which is 5-10 years off being in service (nearer 10 in the case of the DMUs).

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I'd take a 331 ahead of a 333 any day of the week. Unfortunately, traveling with an advance doesn't give me that option!

Basically, when it comes to units I'll take anything 2+2 with tables ahead of anything 3+2.

Agreed wholeheartedly.

 

[Mamorin]

My apologies @Bletchleyite and @tfw756rider, it was really late when I made my post.

The 350/2s are not mentioned in the interview, however I agree that we could see the 350/2s with Northern as a temporary measure.

After all Northern's new fleet could get delayed and with a hard deadline of 2031 for the 323s to be replaced its easy to see Northern taking on the 350/2s.

The hard deadline of 2031 helps explain the trials on the Glossop Line.

I now think the trials are being done to make sure the 350/2s can operate on the Northern network, just in case the 350/2s are still available in 2031 and Northern needs them.

 

[jonnyfan]

Latest I've heard is that the trials of the 350/2s on the Glossop line showed they could not keep up to timings so will not be suitable. The timings are very tight on this line, and the 323s remain superior for acceleration on a line with stations very close together.
Network Rail are apparently willing to move the signal on the bay platform of Stoke-on-Trent, so that a 350/2 can still give the driver a clear view of the signal.

So it's a mixed bag in terms of 350/2 suitability. I cannot see Northern taking on a few whilst keeping some 323s as well, it's not going to happen, it's another layer of complexity into an already complex operation.

The 2031 deadline is for ETCS on the WCML North. So by then 323s will not be able to be used on routes controlled by WCML signalling. Lines such as the Glossop line will be fine still for 323s past 2031, until the 323s are replaced by new rolling stock.

 

[Mamorin]

Shame the 350/2s are not fit for use on the Glossop line, as that to me means Northern are 100% not taking them.

Network Rail moving the signal in the bay at Stoke would be quite nice, as while 4 cars on Stoke stoppers at off peak times would be over kill it would be nice to see 4 cars on all peak time services to Stoke.

Northern will need a plan B though in case the new fleet is delayed, shame the 350/2s may not be that back up plan.

 

[Brubulus]

Shame the 350/2s are not fit for use on the Glossop line, as that to me means Northern are 100% not taking them.

Network Rail moving the signal in the bay at Stoke would be quite nice, as while 4 cars on Stoke stoppers at off peak times would be over kill it would be nice to see 4 cars on all peak time services to Stoke.

Northern will need a plan B though in case the new fleet is delayed, shame the 350/2s may not be that back up plan.

3 car 331s are suitable for the Glossop line. The 350/2s are the perfect 323 replacement, though this obviously depends on finances. If new trains are cheaper to lease than the 350/2s, taking into account costs of maintenance and refurbishment, then the 350/2 will continue to be unused.

 

[Bletchleyite]

3 car 331s are suitable for the Glossop line. The 350/2s are the perfect 323 replacement, though this obviously depends on finances. If new trains are cheaper to lease than the 350/2s, taking into account costs of maintenance and refurbishment, then the 350/2 will continue to be unused.

I can't imagine Porterbrook not changing the figures substantially to be honest. Better to get some money than none.

 

[Mamorin]

3 car 331s are suitable for the Glossop line. The 350/2s are the perfect 323 replacement, though this obviously depends on finances. If new trains are cheaper to lease than the 350/2s, taking into account costs of maintenance and refurbishment, then the 350/2 will continue to be unused.

Northern wants new trains to replace all but its CAF fleet as it would bring down the number of unit types.

2031 is the hard deadline for the whole 323 fleet so we will have to see what happens.

Though I can see Porterbrook trying to get Northern to trade the 323 s for some 350/2s, however I don't think Porterbrook will be successful.

 

[sad1e]

Shame the 350/2s are not fit for use on the Glossop line, as that to me means Northern are 100% not taking them.

Network Rail moving the signal in the bay at Stoke would be quite nice, as while 4 cars on Stoke stoppers at off peak times would be over kill it would be nice to see 4 cars on all peak time services to Stoke.

Northern will need a plan B though in case the new fleet is delayed, shame the 350/2s may not be that back up plan.

So now are we just looking at a 350/2 long term store until somebody wants them. Or will they follow in the 321's footsteps to Newport sims ?

 

[Mamorin]

Yep that appears to be the case.

Can't say how long Porterbrook will keep the 350/2s in storage though.

Only other operator that may want them is Southern but that would require shoe gear and Southern wanting to restore its full pre-covid timetable.