Should we have a universal ID card?

[J663738]

Just been announced [edit: reported] that ID's will become compulsory. This is a long time overdue IMHO.

Lets hope the new system is not hackable??

Keir Starmer to announce plans for digital ID scheme

The prime minister believes a new scheme would help crack down on illegal working in the UK.

www.bbc.co.uk

Sir Keir Starmer is expected to announce plans for a compulsory UK-wide digital ID scheme in a speech on Friday.

The prime minister believes it would help crack down on illegal working and modernise the state, according to senior figures in government.

The practicalities of the scheme will be subject to a consultation, which will also look at how to make it work for those without a smartphone or passport.

The previous Labour government's attempt to introduce ID cards was ultimately blocked by the Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition.

 

[jfollows]

Actually, it hasn’t been announced, it’s been leaked or ‘briefed’ to the media in advance of the announcement.

 

[75A]

Just been announced that ID's will become compulsory. This is a long time overdue IMHO.

Lets hope the new system is not hackable??

Keir Starmer to announce plans for digital ID scheme

The prime minister believes a new scheme would help crack down on illegal working in the UK.

www.bbc.co.uk

Not hackable, 'You cannot be serious man' ask Jaguar Land Rover or the Kido Nursey Chain : - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c62ldyvpwv9o

 

[westv]

I have a passport and a driving licence. I see no need to have any further ID. I will not carry any with me on a day to day basis.

 

[DoubleLemon]

Would ID cards make it easier to control irregular migration?​

The absence of a national identity system is often cited as one of the pull factors attracting migrants to the UK. Advocates of a system claim that this would give rogue employers no excuse and ease labour market enforcement and so reduce the ability of people to work. But employers are already supposed to check right-to-work status of anyone they employ and it is not clear how far this would act as an additional barrier to illegal work. The government is already working with food delivery groups to try to crack down on illegal work by asylum seekers,13 but labour market enforcement in the UK has historically been very under-resourced. The government’s Employment Rights Bill will bring together three current enforcement agencies into a single Fair Work Agency.14

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainer/digital-id-cards

In a 2019 report, the ONS said: “By its very nature, it is extremely difficult to know the exact size of the illegally resident population and due to the challenges in making reliable estimates the government has not produced any official estimates since the mid-2000s.”

https://fullfact.org/immigration/uk-illegal-migrants-reform/

YouGov / Big Brother Watch Survey Results: https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/BBW_Digital_ID_250821_w_5fsFHeD.pdf

I hope I have the quoting ok for the links.

 

[brad465]

I have a passport and a driving licence. I see no need to have any further ID. I will not carry any with me on a day to day basis.

If a single Digital ID streamlined all other forms of ID (passport, driving licence, proof of address, medical access, visa, etc.), then this won't be further ID, but a more efficient system.

 

[westv]

If a single Digital ID streamlined all other forms of ID (passport, driving licence, proof of address, medical access, visa, etc.), then this won't be further ID, but a more efficient system.

That won't happen. You need a passport to travel abroad.

 

[HSTEd]

A digital ID card will enable the state an unprecedented level of control over the provision of goods and services, and the lives of citizens.

Since it will require central validation of all transactions, almost inherently to the concept, it would allow the state to monitor all ID checks and deny any ID check it wishes, at any time, for any person or group or person it chooses.

Buying too many energy drinks? DENIED
Considered by the NHS to be an alcoholic? NO PUB FOR YOU

And thats before we get to truly nefarious stuff now that the state has made it almost impossible to use much social media without linking it to an ID.
Or setting ID requirements to deny purchases of "luxuries" by people in receipt of government assistance.

Digital ID is about 99% of the cost of a full blown social credit scheme, and after the online safety act I can't see it as anything other than the first step in the introduction of such a system.

 

[signed]

A digital ID card will enable the state an unprecedented level of control over the provision of goods and services, and the lives of citizens.

What?

That's not what happens in every other country in Continental Europe where most of everybody some kind of central electronic ID, like in Belgium where eID has been in place for litterally more than 10 years now.

Since it will require central validation of all transactions

What transaction, it ain't a bank card?

 

[DoubleLemon]

A digital ID card will enable the state an unprecedented level of control over the provision of goods and services, and the lives of citizens.

Since it will require central validation of all transactions, almost inherently to the concept, it would allow the state to monitor all ID checks and deny any ID check it wishes, at any time, for any person or group or person it chooses.

Buying too many energy drinks? DENIED
Considered by the NHS to be an alcoholic? NO PUB FOR YOU

And thats before we get to truly nefarious stuff now that the state has made it almost impossible to use much social media without linking it to an ID.
Or setting ID requirements to deny purchases of "luxuries" by people in receipt of government assistance.

Digital ID is about 99% of the cost of a full blown social credit scheme, and after the online safety act I can't see it as anything other than the first step in the introduction of such a system.

Oh my - you need to stop taking all those energy drinks as its pushing you down a rabbit hole. How would an ID card do this?
Buying too many energy drinks? DENIED
Considered by the NHS to be an alcoholic? NO PUB FOR YOU
You will have to explain how you think it would work as think you are just close to needing a tinfoil hat.
People seem to think the government track your bank card usage - this is illegal under EU law and is still illegal in the uk without a warrant in the courts. (this is why loyalty cards are a thing - you give permission for the store to track your spending as they can use the card to do so)
There are reasons where you may be asked to link your bank info to HMRC if you run a business - under making tax digital (this has been delayed many times) as its trying to reduce the rampant tax fraud in small businesses.
HMRC already get your PAYE information every period and lots of companies share it with experian and equifax - for example

We have partnered with Experian and Equifax to employees whose payrolls are processed by IRIS Payroll software for instant verification of income and employment status.

Traditionally, financial service providers ask for PDF payslips and other documents, to verify employees when considering the application for financial products, such as mortgages and personal loans.

We have integrated an Employee verification connector (EVC) into IRIS Payroll software to remove the manual processes.

"https://help.staffology.co.uk/payroll/additional/services/evc/about-evc.htm?tocpath=Additional information|Services and partnerships|Employee verification connector|_____

 

[dangie]

I don’t need an ID card to let me know who I am, a mirror will do for that, ‘yup… that’s me……’

However if an ID card will let other people know who I am, then bring it on.

 

[HSTEd]

What?

Sure that can happen. But that's not what happens in every other country in Continental Europe where most of everybody has a electronic ID, like in Belgium where eID has been in place for litterally more than 10 years now

If it can happen with an ID card, even if it has not happened everywhere such cards have been introduced, and it cannot happen without such a card, I do not wand such a card.

What transaction, it ain't a bank card?

The digital transaction that will occur when someone presents the ID at an ID check.

The card will authenticate its identity, via the device conducting the check, against the central government server. The government server will be provided with information about the nature of the check, for example to consider the different age limits for different activities/purchases.

Since the government knows the reason for the activity/purchase/check being performed, who is performing it and what ID is being checked, it can provide a positive or negative response based on information held on the central system. Anyone can have their ID configured, even without their knowledge, to be refused for categories of check simply by changing the data held by the central system.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Sep 2025 ==

Oh my - you need to stop taking all those energy drinks as its pushing you down a rabbit hole. How would an ID card do this?
Buying too many energy drinks? DENIED
Considered by the NHS to be an alcoholic? NO PUB FOR YOU
You will have to explain how you think it would work as think you are just close to needing a tinfoil hat.

The machine being used to check your ID would initiate a three way exchange with the card or ecard (on a device) and the government system.

The government system will inevitably have to be provided information about the check, for example its purpose and where it is. It is essentially inherent to this sort of system to protect against various bypass measures.

Given the government will know that 'A Bloggs' is at the Spa on Somewhere Street and is attempting to purchase an energy drink, it wil be entirely possible for the government system to deny people the purchase of energy drinks (or any other good and service) based on previous ID checks, as well as other government records such as social media, medical records, etc.

 

[DoubleLemon]

If it can happen with an ID card, even if it has not happened everywhere such cards have been introduced, and it cannot happen without such a card, I do not wand such a card.


The digital transaction that will occur when someone presents the ID at an ID check.

The card will authenticate its identity, via the device conducting the check, against the central government server. The government server will be provided with information about the nature of the check, for example to consider the different age limits for different activities/purchases.

Since the government knows the reason for the activity/purchase/check being performed, who is performing it and what ID is being checked, it can provide a positive or negative response based on information held on the central system. Anyone can have their ID configured, even without their knowledge, to be refused for categories of check simply by changing the data held by the central system.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Sep 2025 ==



The machine being used to check your ID would initiate a three way exchange with the card or ecard (on a device) and the government system.

The government system will inevitably have to be provided information about the check, for example its purpose and where it is. It is essentially inherent to this sort of system to protect against various bypass measures.

Given the government will know that 'A Bloggs' is at the Spa on Somewhere Street and is attempting to purchase an energy drink, it wil be entirely possible for the government system to deny people the purchase of energy drinks (or any other good and service) based on previous ID checks, as well as other government records such as social media, medical records, etc.

WHY? Why would they not already be doing this when you need ID to buy beer in a supermarket? They have your info - what is stopping them asking for the licence and doing it RIGHT NOW? because its stupid.

 

[HSTEd]

WHY? Why would they not already be doing this when you need ID to buy beer in a supermarket? They have your info - what is stopping them asking for the licence and doing it RIGHT NOW? because its stupid.

Because you don't need ID to buy beer in a supermarket.

I haven't been ID'd for alcohol in a supermarket in almost a decade.
And drivers licences etc don't contain the hardware necessary to allow them to be remotely (fully or partially) revoked by the state at will.

Only "digital" ID can easily be provided with that capability

 

[signed]

The government system will inevitably have to be provided information about the check, for example its purpose and where it is. It is essentially inherent to this sort of system to protect against various bypass measures.

No? That would very likely be contrary to GDPR and a whole crap of other laws. Most eID (and straight authentication) middleware systems online just get the name of the website visited.

 

[HSTEd]

No? That would very likely be contrary to GDPR. Most eID middleware systems online just get the name of the website visited.

Allowing anyone to make an ID check without any legitimate purpose is likely to be more contrary to GDPR (especially as NFC integration is inevitable), so the state would have to know who is requesting the check to check they are permitted to request it.

And since different activities/restrictions have different age or residency requierments, the purpose of the check will have to be communicated to the system to allow the correct result to be transmitted.

Unless you think GDPR would like a shop checking for alcohol purchases being told about someone's immigration status.

 

[signed]

Allowing anyone to make an ID check without any legitimate purpose is likely to be more contrary to GDPR

Yes? But that doesn't change based on whether the ID is physical or not

 

[Bishopstone]

An idea whose time has come. Crack on with it, and ignore the inevitable special pleading from groups who believe they should be exempt.

 

[FinsburyPark]

What I dont get is why the leapfrog from physical ID card, which are also hated by many Brits to Digital ones. This 'leapfrog effect' is something no matter how hard i try, I can't 'make it make sense'.

For reference I am an dual national EU citizen and personally have no issues with physical ID cards, but absolutely cannot stand the idea of Digital ones.

 

[HSTEd]

Yes? But that doesn't change based on whether the ID is physical or not

So the state has to be told who is requestin gthe check, that inevitably tells them where the check is.
In order to prevent information being leaked for unrelated checks, it has to know the purpose of the check.

And obviously the state knows whos ID is being checked.

Therefore it has all the information necessary to tailor requests based on information held by the state

Currently the state has no way of telling if an ID check has been made, since the authenticity is provided by a physical token that cannot be easily replicated.
A digital ID, by its very nature, is perfectly replicable, therefore communications with a central authority is essential.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What I dont get is why the leapfrog from physical ID card, which are also hated by many Brits to Digital ones. This 'leapfrog effect' is something no matter how hard i try, I can't 'make it make sense'.

For reference I am an dual national EU citizen and personally have no issues with physical ID cards, but absolutely cannot stand the idea of Digital ones.

I would like a physical one with passport biometrics so I can travel on it.

 

[signed]

This 'leapfrog effect' is something no matter how hard i try, I can't 'make it make sense'.

That's how every system work when you skip a step.

African countries have had mobile payments democratised LONG before we did as they skipped checks and credit cards.

 

[DoubleLemon]

Because you don't need ID to buy beer in a supermarket.

I haven't been ID'd for alcohol in a supermarket in almost a decade.
And drivers licences etc don't contain the hardware necessary to allow them to be remotely (fully or partially) revoked by the state at will.

Only "digital" ID can easily be provided with that capability

The government could pass a law to make it mandatory for all purchases. If they wanted to implement your "scheme"£

 

[HSTEd]

The government could pass a law to make it mandatory for all purchases. If they wanted to implement your "scheme"£

Which wouldn't achieve what digital ID can achieve, because they have no way to remotely make drivers licences invalid.
They have no control mechanism, at absolute best they might be able to monitor but drivers licences aren't even easily machine readable.

 

[njamescouk]

no.

function creep will go like this:

immigrants have their spending controlled.

the unemployed have their spending controlled.

everyone has their spending controlled.

 

[FinsburyPark]

I would like a physical one with passport biometrics so I can travel on it.

Thats definately one of the major selling points for physical ID cards, at least within the EU.

I can fly from Greece to France on it and from Portugal to Finland.

Not to mention French routes like Réunion-Paris-Cayenne.

 

[DoubleLemon]

So the state has to be told who is requestin gthe check, that inevitably tells them where the check is.
In order to prevent information being leaked for unrelated checks, it has to know the purpose of the check.

And obviously the state knows whos ID is being checked.

Therefore it has all the information necessary to tailor requests based on information held by the state

Currently the state has no way of telling if an ID check has been made, since the authenticity is provided by a physical token that cannot be easily replicated.
A digital ID, by its very nature, is perfectly replicable, therefore communications with a central authority is essential.

You do know this is a solved problem and you as I said they could easily require id to be presented in your fictional future and do the draconian things you think is going to happen. Its simple. They can make the laws to make it a requirement and then they would have to do everything you are claiming above.
If there was any, any desire to do this, it would have been simple to do with the systems we have in place at the moment.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Sep 2025 ==

no.

function creep will go like this:

immigrants have their spending controlled.

the unemployed have their spending controlled.

everyone has their spending controlled.

HOW? Again, if they wanted to do this we could - link the bank cards to the "big control system" and for those that pay by cash. Require ID (passport or licence) to pay.

 

[Iskra]

no.

function creep will go like this:

immigrants have their spending controlled.

the unemployed have their spending controlled.

everyone has their spending controlled.

Why would the government want to stop people spending when it takes at least 20% everytime?

 

[HSTEd]

You do know this is a solved problem and you as I said they could easily require id to be presented in your fictional future and do the draconian things you think is going to happen. Its simple. They can make the laws to make it a requirement and then they would have to do everything you are claiming above.
If there was any, any desire to do this, it would have been simple to do with the systems we have in place at the moment.

Attempting to build a system to work with existing ID cards would cost many many times what this will cost.

By far the cheapest way to do this is to implement a digital ID scheme.
You know, exactly like what is being proposed here.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Sep 2025 ==

Why would the government want to stop people spending when it takes at least 20% everytime?

Because it will want it to be spent on things that align with government policy.
It gets 20% or so whatever happens, the extra is just gravy.

 

[DoubleLemon]

Which wouldn't achieve what digital ID can achieve, because they have no way to remotely make drivers licences invalid.
They have no control mechanism, at absolute best they might be able to monitor but drivers licences aren't even easily machine readable.

Yes they can - its all digital - how do you think the ANPR system knows people have been disqualified. You may not be aware of these systems, so you can be forgiven but we can make drivers licences invalid. We could then alert petrol stations and they would not be allowed to let them fuel.