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Guardian reporting potential NPR "formal revival"

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Grimsby town

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It could only escape the problems of HS2 if the entire scheme was scrapped and started from a clean sheet of paper though.
Otherwise the same failures of management and design will be present as were present in Phase 1.

Just standing up an alternative delivery apparatus would take many years. They definitely would not want anything to do with the existing apparatus in any form, given how badly it has failed.

Come on, there's clearly efficiencies to be made given the land is mainly purchased and there are designs in place. Phase 2a is far less complicated than Phase 1 so a lot of the issue phasing Phase 1 aren't relevant. There's far less scope for government changing scope. Also the mitigation measures might be able to be reduced without impacting the actual line. There's also scope for efficiency savings through reduced speeds (although that want be huge).

Plenty of HS2s issues arent engineering related too. Its obviously pretty easy to adopt a new procurement strategy and given a decent proportion of the land is owned by the government, ground surveys can be undertaken which de-risks the potential engineering challenges.
The last cost estimate we had for Phase 2A still had it cost £7bn or so. Starting from now I would be very surprirsed if it came in at under £10bn. And remember that Phase 1 outturn costs increased radically in price from the estimates at a similar stage of project development.

Without the full delta I can't see the price of a HS2 concession getting up that high.

The below link suggests £5bn without Euston and 2a and £20bn with it.

https://news.railbusinessdaily.com/...-projects-potential-concession-value-to-20bn/

However to increase the scope of the network to reach Euston and Crewe would incur a further capital cost of £11.5 billion, whilst raising the potential concession value to as much as £20 billion.
It is by Highspeed Rail Group so is lobbying but it will at least be prepared by somebody with more expertise on the matter than either of us.
The bond markets are jumpy enough as it is without attempting to hide a billion pounds a year or more of additional rail subsidy that the government will be committing future governments to for the forseable.
It's not going to be £1 billion a year in subsidy. Given that there's no immediate subsidy or government spending, the bond markets couldn't care less. France uses private finance to subsidise HSR and the world hasn't fallen in. The bond markets are worried about £10s billions a year, not £10s of millions.
 
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Halifaxlad

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Or, looking at it the other way, one of the biggest issues for NPR was trying to serve Bradford

Technically it was making Bradford a stop on the route between Leeds & Manchester despite the fact it didn't need to be.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The biggest issue with TRU as a replacement for NPR is that it leaves Bradford out in the cold with slow trains in all directions. I agree that a brand new trans-Pennine route is probably not a good use of scarce money, given the difficulty of the terrain it would have to deal with, but it would be good to see some ambition to improve speed and connectivity to Bradford.

I'm improving Bradford could easily be done on the back of TRU and this proposed new line from Huddersfield which is based basically the 'Potential Wider Network' option of the IRP.

But Bradford shouldn't alll be improving links to Manchester which already has a decent service. What would be a good idea would be to reinstate the Crigglestone Curve and give Bradford a direct service to Sheffield via Wakefield.

Skipton to Colne reopened and electrified all the way to Preston. BFS - Blackpool North.
 
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HSTEd

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Come on, there's clearly efficiencies to be made given the land is mainly purchased and there are designs in place. Phase 2a is far less complicated than Phase 1 so a lot of the issue phasing Phase 1 aren't relevant. There's far less scope for government changing scope. Also the mitigation measures might be able to be reduced without impacting the actual line. There's also scope for efficiency savings through reduced speeds (although that want be huge).

Plenty of HS2s issues arent engineering related too. Its obviously pretty easy to adopt a new procurement strategy and given a decent proportion of the land is owned by the government, ground surveys can be undertaken which de-risks the potential engineering challenges.
Ground surveys might de-risk the potential engienering challenges in that they make them obvious, but they don't make them go away.
If anything is found the project will have to redesign the whole section nearly from scratch.

And if you want to reduce speeds to save money on engineering..... then the designs will have to be redone to account for this!
The below link suggests £5bn without Euston and 2a and £20bn with it.

https://news.railbusinessdaily.com/...-projects-potential-concession-value-to-20bn/
It is by Highspeed Rail Group so is lobbying but it will at least be prepared by somebody with more expertise on the matter than either of us.
£15bn uplift is probably not much more than Phase 2A and Euston will cost even if things go relatively well from here on out....
The upside risk to the cost will be absolutely enormous.

It's not going to be £1 billion a year in subsidy. Given that there's no immediate subsidy or government spending, the bond markets couldn't care less. France uses private finance to subsidise HSR and the world hasn't fallen in. The bond markets are worried about £10s billions a year, not £10s of millions.
If the a private sector body is going to be spending £20bn on a concession they are going to want to extract something like £2bn from it every year after operating expenses are covered.
The world of near zero interest rates are well and truly gone.

That £2bn will have to come out of the railway budget, because functionally HS2's only customer will be the state.

It is functionally signing the government up to £2bn in addtional spending every year for decades.
The bond markets will most certainly notice this, they are always alert for wheezes like this by desperate chancellors and will price accordingly.

In any case:

As to the design of Phase 2A...... given that we are apparently now actually doing NPR the environment has changed rather dramatically since the route was selected in 2009.

If, as it appears, a fast line will be between Liverpool and Manchester Airport, and a fast approach into Manchester from the Airport....... what is gained by going via Crewe?

The fastest route from London/Biormingham to Liverpool is likely to be to go to the Airport then along the east west line.
We would probably want a chord from the East West line to the WCML in any case to allow it to relieve the lines through Bolton, or it could certainly be added at comparatively low cost.

That means the fastest route to the northern WCML is probably going to be via Manchester Airport and joining the WCML near Warrington or wherever.

North Wales trains can't be fully electric so probably can't use HS2 in any case, and could always proceed to Handsacre regardless.
After that, most of the rationale for going to Crewe seems to just... fall away.

The route via Crewe imposes a significant dog leg and doesn't serve the primary urban areas between Manchester and Birmingham.
 

Greetlander

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I'm sorry if this is in the wrong thread - I'm not in the UK anymore so I may need a bit of background to assist my understanding.

The TPU means Leeds - Manchester (plus Newcastle/York, Liverpool) via Huddersfield is covered as a high speed option for cross pennine links? Therefore NPR is mainly about giving Bradford a better service. Why not just electrify the Calder Valley, put in a few four track sections and straighten out the odd bit? Has the double impact of fleshing out the electrified network and make the infill schemes easier?

Am I missing something?
 

YorkshireBear

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I'm sorry if this is in the wrong thread - I'm not in the UK anymore so I may need a bit of background to assist my understanding.

The TPU means Leeds - Manchester (plus Newcastle/York, Liverpool) via Huddersfield is covered as a high speed option for cross pennine links? Therefore NPR is mainly about giving Bradford a better service. Why not just electrify the Calder Valley, put in a few four track sections and straighten out the odd bit? Has the double impact of fleshing out the electrified network and make the infill schemes easier?

Am I missing something?
I would really not want to four track and straighten bits of Calder valley, new build would definitely be preferable to that.... It would be utter carnage.

Loads of residential properties near railway steep valleys, river Calder, lots of flooding.
 

Snow1964

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I'm sorry if this is in the wrong thread - I'm not in the UK anymore so I may need a bit of background to assist my understanding.

The TPU means Leeds - Manchester (plus Newcastle/York, Liverpool) via Huddersfield is covered as a high speed option for cross pennine links? Therefore NPR is mainly about giving Bradford a better service. Why not just electrify the Calder Valley, put in a few four track sections and straighten out the odd bit? Has the double impact of fleshing out the electrified network and make the infill schemes easier?

Am I missing something?
Politicians always like to stand up and look good, the Labour Party has an annual conference (which this year is in Liverpool, Sunday 28 September to Wednesday 1st October), just the sort of event where doing something locals want to hear is often done.

Therefore will almost certainly be some variation, or high profile (in name, if not actual train service) add on to Transpennine scheme, probably the Liverpool - Manchester new line section (half of which is a shared route with HS2), some improvements around Bradford, and Leeds, and possibly a newly announced bit of electrification where there are lots of marginal constituencies to help gain votes by being able to say our political party is investing to give improvements locally.

As for trains, for years there has been been talk (and they are on the DfT procurement spreadsheet) of 29 express trains about 210m long for Transpennine area, and lots of local trains, multi system and battery electric. None of which have ever become an actual order, meanwhile lots of diesel units from 1985-1990 continue with no replacements on order.
 

HSTEd

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The Calder VAlley line seems, based on aerial photography, to be almost as cocooned in development as the route via Huddersfield.

I can't see any serious realignment succeding without major demolitions or being so far off route as to be functionally a new line.
 

stevieinselby

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The Calder VAlley line seems, based on aerial photography, to be almost as cocooned in development as the route via Huddersfield.

I can't see any serious realignment succeding without major demolitions or being so far off route as to be functionally a new line.
The Calder Valley line is very much built-up along the railway corridor ... and very much, well, just "up" away from the railway corridor. Agree it is hard to see how the alignment could be upgraded without either a lot of demolition or rerouting much of it into new tunnels. However, there may be scope for additional passing loops to allow fast trains to pass stopping and freight trains. I don't know whether there is any realistic scope to increase the linespeed on the current alignment.

The other line in that area that could do with improvement is the Copy Pit line from Todmorden to Burnley, which has a linespeed of 40–45mph so trains crawl along there for about 10 miles despite no intermediate station.
 

nr758123

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The other line in that area that could do with improvement is the Copy Pit line from Todmorden to Burnley, which has a linespeed of 40–45mph so trains crawl along there for about 10 miles despite no intermediate station.
Doesn't the Copy Pit line have serious issues with ground conditions?
 

camflyer

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In the month of posting dormancy on this thread, have any positive clarifications been made by ministers?

BBC now reporting more delays

Plans to extend high-speed rail across the north of England have been delayed further and will not now be announced by the prime minister at the Labour Party conference next week.

The BBC understands concerns over the long-term costs of the line earmarked between Liverpool and Manchester have pushed back the revival of Northern Powerhouse Rail.

 

eldomtom2

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In the month of posting dormancy on this thread, have any positive clarifications been made by ministers?
The exact opposite, unfortunately. This just out from the BBC:
Plans to extend high-speed rail across the north of England have been delayed further and will not now be announced by the prime minister at the Labour Party conference next week.

The BBC understands concerns over the long-term costs of the line earmarked between Liverpool and Manchester have pushed back the revival of Northern Powerhouse Rail.

An announcement had been expected on multiple occasions in recent months, but insiders said an extended review process of the project was under way in a bid to avoid mistakes made with HS2, which has been dogged by problems and costly delays.
 

HSTEd

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Any line must be revenue positive or it requires the Treasury to sign off on an increase in operational subsidy that could easily dwarf the construction cost.
 

camflyer

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Any line must be revenue positive or it requires the Treasury to sign off on an increase in operational subsidy that could easily dwarf the construction cost.

Which is precisely why nothing gets built in this country.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I could believe a new feasibility study being commissioned, but there's no way an expensive and vaguely defined new TP line could be committed yet.
Tunnelling west and east (and possibly under) Manchester, plus a tunnelled route through Bradford. seems like fantasy to me, until we see a route and likely service levels (with impact on current routes).
But they could agree to upgrade/electrify current routes (eg Calder Valley, Leeds-Hull, CLC Liverpool-Manchester (and Stockport-Sheffield-Doncaster).
 
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Snow1964

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I could believe a new feasibility study being commissioned, but there's no way an expensive and vaguely defined new TP line could be committed yet.
Tunnelling west and east (and possibly under) Manchester, plus a tunnelled route route through Bradford. seems like fantasy to me, until we see a route and likely service levels (with impact on current routes).
But they could agree to upgrade/electrify current routes (eg Calder Valley, Leeds-Hull, CLC Liverpool-Manchester (and Stockport-Sheffield-Doncaster).
The whole feasibility study is part of the problem.

Employing a consultancy with hundreds of staff, racking up hundreds of thousands in fees then dithering doesn't get anything done.

The alternative is to say we need a trackbed from A to B onto C and basically ask all the big construction companies how much and how long, set a max price with penalties for excess time, pick one, and let them figure it out and do it as they have the expertise. If too expensive go for lower cost alternative, no point in killing it as already decided need something.

The Spanish, Italian, and many other countries use this method, might not be perfect but it does get things actually done, rather than talked about for years with not single spade in ground.
 

JonathanH

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Which is precisely why nothing gets built in this country.
It makes economic sense that what limited funding is available should be spent on things which will actually deliver a return on that funding.
 

HSTEd

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I could believe a new feasibility study being commissioned, but there's no way an expensive and vaguely defined new TP line could be committed yet.
Tunnelling west and east (and possibly under) Manchester, plus a tunnelled route route through Bradford. seems like fantasy to me, until we see a route and likely service levels (with impact on current routes).
But they could agree to upgrade/electrify current routes (eg Calder Valley, Leeds-Hull, CLC Liverpool-Manchester (and Stockport-Sheffield-Doncaster).
Unfortunately, going from PIccadilly to the Airport is one of the longest tunnel required to get out of the city in any direction.

Electrification and "upgrades" of existing routes that boost capacity are likely to have the same problem - because they will lead to more services that haemmorhage money.

I believe it would be possible to create a revenue positive fast service between Liverpool and Manchester, but it would require a new line on a direct-ish route. And probably reductions in operational subsidies for the existing routes, whether by service cuts or by Metrolink.
 

Xavi

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The whole feasibility study is part of the problem.

Employing a consultancy with hundreds of staff, racking up hundreds of thousands in fees then dithering doesn't get anything done.

The alternative is to say we need a trackbed from A to B onto C and basically ask all the big construction companies how much and how long, set a max price with penalties for excess time, pick one, and let them figure it out and do it as they have the expertise. If too expensive go for lower cost alternative, no point in killing it as already decided need something.

The Spanish, Italian, and many other countries use this method, might not be perfect but it does get things actually done, rather than talked about for years with not single spade in ground.
The problem is not the consultancies -contractors wouldn’t know where to start without professional services. Designs (by consultants) in Italy and Spain are much more mature before budget numbers are published. The real problem is the UK Treasury’s obsession with a flawed BCR process.
 

Technologist

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Which is precisely why nothing gets built in this country.

Well quite, if you want to do something cheaply you need to be good at doing it and adopt the best techniques.

To both acquire the best techniques and be proficient you need to both practice and experiment which means that you also need to risk failure (relative failure, you might actually be quicker and cheaper than doing things with waterfall risk management).

Ergo for high speed rail what you should do is 1-2 £1-2bn projects to get to the point where your delivery organisation has the capability to actually build something like phase 1 of HS2 and build it at a sensible price.

However those projects being islands of new build high speed rail away from a tier 1 city wouldn’t pass a treasury business case so wouldn’t happen.

Treasury brain doesn’t do incrementalism.
 

eldomtom2

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The problem is not the consultancies -contractors wouldn’t know where to start without professional services. Designs (by consultants) in Italy and Spain are much more mature before budget numbers are published.
Though the UK does seem to be more reliant on consultants than other European countries and a lack of in-house capacity keeps coming in studies as a cause of high infrastructure costs.
 

chris2

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Unfortunately, going from PIccadilly to the Airport is one of the longest tunnel required to get out of the city in any direction.

Looks like the govt might be thinking along the same lines…

A particular issue is whether the Treasury believes that connecting Manchester Airport to the centre of Manchester, a part of Northern Powerhouse Rail which overlapped with part of the cancelled HS2 Phase 2, represents value for money.
- BBC article quoted above
 

Xavi

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Though the UK does seem to be more reliant on consultants than other European countries
Yes, the planning process is more demanding in the UK requiring greater inputs from consultancies. For design services there’s little difference between the UK and the rest of Europe.
 

camflyer

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It makes economic sense that what limited funding is available should be spent on things which will actually deliver a return on that funding.

Lots of infrastructure projects don't directly make money but they enable growth in the wider economy. Whether or not a new trans-Pennine would be profitable is certainly a factor in the decision but it also needs to take into account the wider benefits. Nobody asks whether new motorways or hospitals make a profit.
 

camflyer

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Though the UK does seem to be more reliant on consultants than other European countries and a lack of in-house capacity keeps coming in studies as a cause of high infrastructure costs.

These transport and infrastructure consultancies have a great business model getting paid to produce shiny looking reports, budgets and videos before being told that it is unaffordable and being paid to do it again. There is no incentive to them to simplify the process.
 

Yew

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Just standing up an alternative delivery apparatus would take many years. They definitely would not want anything to do with the existing apparatus in any form, given how badly it has failed.
Perhaps not, if they've got into the swing of things, it could be worthwhile keeping that operation going

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

It makes economic sense that what limited funding is available should be spent on things which will actually deliver a return on that funding.
Yes, but we have to remember that the returns don't stop at the fare box, the project will stimulate economic growth directly through spending, as well as through longer term macroeconomic effects. The midlands, north and many other regions haven't been firing on all cylinders for 40 years, and there is a great deal of potential, if the government signals that it is taking investing in them seriously.
 
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Grimsby town

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These transport and infrastructure consultancies have a great business model getting paid to produce shiny looking reports, budgets and videos before being told that it is unaffordable and being paid to do it again. There is no incentive to them to simplify the process.
Of course people who've chosen to work in transport famously don't want to improve transport. Most consultants don't want to be working on endless feasibility studies, they want to work on things that get built. It's a very competitive industry too, so if you're ripping off the tax payer, you'll struggle to get more work.

I worked on NPR 5 years ago and it frustrates me massively that so little has been achieved. A plan needs to be made and it needs to be stuck to. The north needs more capacity and between Liverpool and Manchester that should probably be in the form of a new line. Significant upgrades to capacity isn't really possible on the existing lines and there aren't sufficient diversionary lines to close lines for upgrades unlike Manchester to York.
 
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