Merseyrail 777 introduction

[meld3]

Unit Allox now showing on RTT

 

[Djgr]

The loop signalling has changed, fairly significantly, since it opened. It was originally designed to cater for a 36 trains per hour peak service which never materialised in practice (27 was as good as it got). The current arrangement permits 2-3 minute headways, just about.

I'm fairly sure these changes were made as part of the 1994 resignalling, which killed off the last remaining ex-Mersey Railway colour lights alongside the semaphores.

Above posts say that 1994 resignalling did not affect the Loop?

 

[MR-507508]

The plan originally was for 6 Southport, 2 Ormskirk and 2 Chester diagrams to be formed of 8 cars, no idea when (or if) that's likely to actually come in though.

Was this plan based on if the 'speculated' timetable recast went ahead following the introduction of the class 777s?

I believe the timetable recast was to bring about reduced journey times, especially on the longer routes such as Southport and Chester. Also it would have led to a reduction of a unit on some lines including Ormskirk, Southport and New Brighton/West Kirby, with the New Brighton and West Kirby lines interworking to save a unit. Thereby allowing for more 8 Cars and some extra workings on South Wirral and between Southport and Liverpool Central during the peaks.

Due to a different mode of operation following 777 introduction (not DOO) and I believe infrastructure improvements which would be required to see the benefits of the increased acceleration, I don't believe the timetable recast can go ahead?

 

[prod_pep]

Above posts say that 1994 resignalling did not affect the Loop?

Having checked, yes it did. A clear example is platform 1 at James Street which originally had a starting signal, as seen here in this 1979 photo. This signal is still present in early 1990s cab rides but is no longer there, illustrating the reduction in headway.

[Photo copyright: Tim Abbott]

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Anyone expain the logic of less services (so I am told by non rail relatives) , from east Liverpool (Cressington) to Southport instead of Ormskirk.

Or have I got it badly wrong ?

 

[WirralLine]

Anyone expain the logic of less services (so I am told by non rail relatives) , from east Liverpool (Cressington) to Southport instead of Ormskirk.

Or have I got it badly wrong ?

As i understand it its only "temporary" as they need 8 car running on Southport services, which cant call at Cressington as selective door opening (still) isnt setup and working. From whats been said on this thread its looking like Hunts Cross-Southport direct services wont be back until 2026.

The current workaround when they use 8 cars on Ormskirk-Hunts Cross for events is to just skip Cressington completely if the train is an 8car.

 

[baldyman26]

The top and bottom of it is the implementation of this project has been nothing short of a farce. Less trains bought, trains that just aren't reliable, trains too big for platforms, battery trains that fail regularly but constant talk of expanding the network using them and on the face of it nobody held accountable. The Merseyside public have had the wool pulled over their eyes, but in Liverpool, Labour and it's idiotic mayor is untouchable and free of any scrutiny so this farce just continues. Graffiti artists aren't your biggest problem Steve, but let's highlight it to take the heat away from you.

 

[Sam 76]

The top and bottom of it is the implementation of this project has been nothing short of a farce. Less trains bought, trains that just aren't reliable, trains too big for platforms, battery trains that fail regularly but constant talk of expanding the network using them and on the face of it nobody held accountable. The Merseyside public have had the wool pulled over their eyes, but in Liverpool, Labour and it's idiotic mayor is untouchable and free of any scrutiny so this farce just continues. Graffiti artists aren't your biggest problem Steve, but let's highlight it to take the heat away from you.

Does anyone know when the updated faults per mile stats are published?

Feels like there has been a significant improvements over the last 6 months so will be interesting to see if that comes out in the stats

 

[Ellis101]

I guess one issue with Sandhills is the turnback siding faces the wrong direction, otherwise they could run additional Liverpool Central - Moorfields - Sandhills extra services, but for that to work with the current layout those ECS moves will need to go towards Kirkdale depot area to reverse.

More trains will probably get ordered at some point I reckon, only to allow more services to run as 8 coaches, considering I've seen trains from Chester leaving folk behind at Hooton due to being stupidly overcrowded.

Merseyrail has quite the issue with leaving people behind... With another train not for 15 minutes there was multiple people on my Thursday morning commute at Aigburth, St Michaels and Brunswick who weren't very happy as it was impossible for them to get on the train despite needing to get to work on time.

I think it needs to be addressed ASAP before passenger numbers start falling as I can already imagine people are learning to drive to avoid the mess (including myself) It's not like they can just catch the earlier train as it gets full as well.

 

[jamesst]

The loop signalling has changed, fairly significantly, since it opened. It was originally designed to cater for a 36 trains per hour peak service which never materialised in practice (27 was as good as it got). The current arrangement permits 2-3 minute headways, just about.

I'm fairly sure these changes were made as part of the 1994 resignalling, which killed off the last remaining ex-Mersey Railway colour lights alongside the semaphores.

Nope the loop signalling hasn't really changed position at all since the loop was built.
The 36 trains per hour would of been achieved by running literally signal to signal. With the placement (&overlap) of some of those signals it would never be allowed under modern signalling standards.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Sep 2025 ==

Having checked, yes it did. A clear example is platform 1 at James Street which originally had a starting signal, as seen here in this 1979 photo. This signal is still present in early 1990s cab rides but is no longer there, illustrating the reduction in headway.

[Photo copyright: Tim Abbott]

There very much is still a starting signal at James St as at all underground platforms, I drive it often enough!!

 

[Phillipimo]

Merseyrail has quite the issue with leaving people behind... With another train not for 15 minutes there was multiple people on my Thursday morning commute at Aigburth, St Michaels and Brunswick who weren't very happy as it was impossible for them to get on the train despite needing to get to work on time.

I think it needs to be addressed ASAP before passenger numbers start falling as I can already imagine people are learning to drive to avoid the mess (including myself) It's not like they can just catch the earlier train as it gets full as well.

Were you on the 08:21 from Hunts Cross? On Thursday the train before was cancelled which would help to explain why it was so busy.

 

[RichardAsh1981]

Does anyone know when the updated faults per mile stats are published?

They come out every four weeks (railway periods). Roger Ford reports them in Modern Railways, the numbers are going up but the 777 remain stuck at the bottom of the table, below newer trains.

 

[Ribbleman]

Does anyone know the date upon which the option to order additional units from Stadler is due to expire? The study that was commissioned by the City Region into running units on battery power from Bidston to Wrexham and east from Ellesmere Port must surely have been completed by now. Any positive conclusions will require additional 777s or derivatives to be constructed.

 

[RichardAsh1981]

Does anyone know the date upon which the option to order additional units from Stadler is due to expire?

When the contract was awarded it was stated that options existed for the full life of the fleet (or maybe the duration of the maintenance deal with Stadler), but the costs (not public) will change. So unlike some other deal, there does not seem to be a "use it or loose it" cut-off date.

 

[WirralLine]

What ive also noticed is the internal PIS system still doesnt seem to work for "short" /adhoc journeys.

Rail replacement buses in place yesterday for engineering works so Chester and Ellesmere Port services only going as far as Rock Ferry. The external screens display this but the internal ones just show the Merseyrail logo with no audio announcements. Considering the likes of the TFW 197 can have new headcodes and calling patterns sent to them remotely if theres a short term change so the PIS is always correct, this seems like something that shouldnt even be a problem in the first place!

 

[Bletchleyite]

What ive also noticed is the internal PIS system still doesnt seem to work for "short" /adhoc journeys.

Rail replacement buses in place yesterday for engineering works so Chester and Ellesmere Port services only going as far as Rock Ferry. The external screens display this but the internal ones just show the Merseyrail logo with no audio announcements. Considering the likes of the TFW 197 can have new headcodes and calling patterns sent to them remotely if theres a short term change so the PIS is always correct, this seems like something that shouldnt even be a problem in the first place!

The PIS needs a wholesale rewrite, to be honest, it's rubbish. In particular the map screens are really hard to read with small font in yellow on black - compared to the really clear ones on the Lizzie and the likes it's night and day.

 

[TheSel]

What ive also noticed is the internal PIS system still doesnt seem to work for "short" /adhoc journeys.

Done the Liverpool Central - Hunts Cross section on an 8-car yet?

Quote from PIS: "This is Cressington. Please take care when stepping onto the platform." Yeah - especially as the train's passing through at about 40mph!!!

 

[jamesst]

What ive also noticed is the internal PIS system still doesnt seem to work for "short" /adhoc journeys.

Rail replacement buses in place yesterday for engineering works so Chester and Ellesmere Port services only going as far as Rock Ferry. The external screens display this but the internal ones just show the Merseyrail logo with no audio announcements. Considering the likes of the TFW 197 can have new headcodes and calling patterns sent to them remotely if theres a short term change so the PIS is always correct, this seems like something that shouldnt even be a problem in the first place!

There are short journey pis codes which display information (but not timings) both inside and out, that sounds more like the other option has been inputted which is external displays only.

 

[RichardAsh1981]

They come out every four weeks (railway periods). Roger Ford reports them in Modern Railways, the numbers are going up but the 777 remain stuck at the bottom of the table, below newer trains.

Having found the numbers for 2025/26 Period 3 (May 25th->June 21st), for the 53 class 777 units:
- 355,162 unit miles run
- 163 incidents
- 2,179 miles per incident
- Average over last 12 months: 1,312 miles per incident.
The next row above in the table is TfW Class 756, approximately double the miles per incident.

The indication is that the fleet is getting more reliable (because the last period figure is higher than the last 12 months average), but that progress is painfully slow, even compare to other Stadler fleets.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Does anyone know the date upon which the option to order additional units from Stadler is due to expire? The study that was commissioned by the City Region into running units on battery power from Bidston to Wrexham and east from Ellesmere Port must surely have been completed by now. Any positive conclusions will require additional 777s or derivatives to be constructed.

I seem to recall reading somewhere the option existed for the life of the Merseyrail concession which would make it 2028 even though the trains are not owned by them. I guess that this is because it takes into consideration that the government could remove the granting of the concession to Merseytravel and replace it with another organisation as unlikely as it sounds.

 

[Skie]

I seem to recall reading somewhere the option existed for the life of the Merseyrail concession which would make it 2028 even though the trains are not owned by them. I guess that this is because it takes into consideration that the government could remove the granting of the concession to Merseytravel and replace it with another organisation as unlikely as it sounds.

Yep, at least that’s how Modern Railways have reported it https://www.modernrailways.com/article/stadler-build-new-merseyrail-fleet

 

[Sam 76]

Having found the numbers for 2025/26 Period 3 (May 25th->June 21st), for the 53 class 777 units:
- 355,162 unit miles run
- 163 incidents
- 2,179 miles per incident
- Average over last 12 months: 1,312 miles per incident.
The next row above in the table is TfW Class 756, approximately double the miles per incident.

The indication is that the fleet is getting more reliable (because the last period figure is higher than the last 12 months average), but that progress is painfully slow, even compare to other Stadler fleets.

Thanks for this. Good to see improvement but as mentioned a long way to go

 

[MR-507508]

Services operating Southport to Hunts Cross today due to engineering work on the Ormskirk line.

 

[FrontSideBus]

Anyone else find the switching of the main lights annoying? Would it have really been that hard to implement a slow fade in and fade out?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Noticed yesterday that while the units don't have bodyside indicator lights they do seem to have a multicolour panel above the door which shows red when departing and white just as the doors are released but is otherwise off. Perhaps would make sense to make it show orange when the doors are released? It is an odd omission.

 

[WirralLine]

Anyone else find the switching of the main lights annoying? Would it have really been that hard to implement a slow fade in and fade out?

Extremely annoying especially if the brightness outside is so borderline the lights are constantly on and off every minute. I also noticed a lot of the interior light units are failing completely .

 

[FrontSideBus]

Extremely annoying especially if the brightness outside is so borderline the lights are constantly on and off every minute. I also noticed a lot of the interior light units are failing completely .

I've noticed a while ago that the lights are starting to fail. There are dozens of LED modules failing which leaves dark spots in the diffusers and sometimes entire segments are dimmed out!

 

[Ellis101]

Anyone else find the switching of the main lights annoying? Would it have really been that hard to implement a slow fade in and fade out?

Yes it is very annoying as my phone keeps dimming its self then putting the brightness up every few moments.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Playing on the network this week.

One thing I've noticed is that the drivers are still taking absolutely ages to release the doors at stations in a way that doesn't happen at more established DOO TOCs nor those with driver release guard close. I did originally think it was just while they were getting used to driving DOO, but it hasn't improved. Is it malicious compliance or something? It is mentioned upthread that a tactic to avoid wrong side releases is a habit of pausing to think before instinctively pressing, but the delay is sometimes as much as five seconds, far longer than it would take to do a guard release even with the "step out and check to see if the platform has been stolen first" bit.

Plenty of faults observed with the units by the way including PIS failures and the LED failures noted above. Not usual Stadler quality!

 

[irish_rail]

Playing on the network this week.

One thing I've noticed is that the drivers are still taking absolutely ages to release the doors at stations in a way that doesn't happen at more established DOO TOCs nor those with driver release guard close. I did originally think it was just while they were getting used to driving DOO, but it hasn't improved. Is it malicious compliance or something? It is mentioned upthread that a tactic to avoid wrong side releases is a habit of pausing to think before instinctively pressing, but the delay is sometimes as much as five seconds, far longer than it would take to do a guard release even with the "step out and check to see if the platform has been stolen first" bit.

Plenty of faults observed with the units by the way including PIS failures and the LED failures noted above. Not usual Stadler quality!

Almost certainly an instruction from managers not to release the doors too quickly as this can lead to wrong side release. It is certainly a big deal on GWR where we are expected to wait a few seconds on coming to a stand before releasing the doors to prevent accidentally opening the doors on the wrong side. I guess on Merseyrail, places like Sandhills are a particular risk.