Lost Property - system not fit for purpose

[Mike395]

Why is the experience with losing property on the UK rail network so frustrating?

I left my keys on a southbound EMR service this morning. No problem, I thought, I’ll just see where it ends up looking at my AirTag and go collect. How wrong I was…

First of all contacted EMR; unfortunately by the time their (by own admission short staffed) colleague replied the train had finished its journey and carriage swept by the cleaners. Sure enough, I watched the AirTag and it didn’t leave on the train my inbound formed.

So off I went to St Pancras. Gateline staff confirmed that items removed by the cleaners are no longer considered in EMR’s control and will be handed over to Excess Baggage Co, St Pancras’ lost property agent. Nothing they can do EMR side and directed me downstairs…

….to find a sign stating no lost property queries can be handled at weekends?! The person on the desk confirmed this and all he could suggest was come back tomorrow.

So (having not found anything about LP being Mon-Fri only on the EMR or St Pancras site) I have wasted an afternoon due to, as far as I’m concerned, sheer incompetence on the railway’s part. Lost property should never be outsourced to a profit making third party without arrangements for urgent collection of items that someone knows and can prove are there, it’s just ridiculous.

Luckily I’ve got hold of someone else with a key, but for a while I was facing either a London hotel or a potential locksmith bill and I’ve also wasted time and money going to London this afternoon …. Surely the railway can do better in such scenarios?

 

[Potatopotato]

due to, as far as I’m concerned, sheer incompetence on the railway’s part

"the railway" might invite you consider whether leaving keys on a train really is sheer incompetence on the part of the railway?

 

[WirralLine]

I do agree with the OP to be fair. We all leave something behind at some point in our lives.

Where I work the lost property can be handed in at various locations depending on who finds it and where. It will then go to a central lost property hub at the opposite end of the country. They only get collected from each location once a week, so it may not get logged in the system for a week when it eventually goes down to the central hub, by which point you may have given up all hope assuming its not been handed in or been stolen!

 

[Mike395]

"the railway" might invite you consider whether leaving keys on a train really is sheer incompetence on the part of the railway?

No, sorry - I don’t buy that. Yes I was careless (and distracted by the actions of another passenger but that’s not EMRs fault!) leaving my jacket (containing my keys) in the luggage rack in the first instance, but that doesn’t excuse the process for collecting it being needlessly difficult, where I can prove the ownership and location of the item concerned.

It’s frustrating when I’ve gone to time and expense to collect something that’s mine, from a notionally open location (I have no problem with Excess Baggage Co not being 24/7 to be clear!), I’ve basically been given a shrug of the shoulders.

 

[Gloster]

Just how many people are going to turn up on a Sunday to collect items they mislaid? Should the railway keep a staffed office open for…how many hours…to satisfy people who have made a mistake?

I do agree with the point about lost property passing out of the railway’s hands so quickly. It should remain in the railway‘s hands at least for a sufficiently long time for reasonable efforts by the owner have resulted in the two being reunited.

However, you can’t cover every possibility and the railway should not be expected to be permanently prepared to pick up the pieces for others’ mistakes.

 

[trainophile]

My sympathies, but to look on the bright side they could have been in a black sack on its way to landfill, and completely unrecoverable.

I found a metal water bottle on a train once, and on handing it to the guard he said it would be binned as nobody is going to pay the £10 lost property retrieval fee when a new bottle is much cheaper. I hope you don't get too clobbered for getting your keys back, adding insult to injury.

 

[Mike395]

Just how many people are going to turn up on a Sunday to collect items they mislaid? Should the railway keep a staffed office open for…how many hours…to satisfy people who have made a mistake?

I do agree with the point about lost property passing out of the railway’s hands so quickly. It should remain in the railway‘s hands at least for a sufficiently long time for reasonable efforts by the owner have resulted in the two being reunited.

However, you can’t cover every possibility and the railway should not be expected to be permanently prepared to pick up the pieces for others’ mistakes.

I don’t disagree with most of this… the problem here is that at NR-managed stations it seems that lost items immediately are considered the responsibility of a contractor who will happily have a location open to make money storing items, but not be able to retrieve an item (was quite happy to pay for it!) in that same period…

 

[ainsworth74]

I don’t disagree with most of this… the problem here is that at NR-managed stations it seems that lost items immediately are considered the responsibility of a contractor who will happily have a location open to make money storing items, but not be able to retrieve an item (was quite happy to pay for it!) in that same period…

Quite, it would be one thing if the office was just shut over the weekend. But it isn't. The contractor just doesn't care to make the service available. It's quite a different situation.

I have to say it seems barmy to me that lost property, at least in the very short term, is outsourced at all. Seems like a recipe for poor customer service at high cost.

Companies can't be on the hook indefinitely, but handing it straight over to a third party is very poor in my view.

 

[Gloster]

It wouldn’t surprise me if the outsourcing is to avoid liability. If, say, someone collects their jacket and finds that the wallet in a zipped pocket has disappeared, the railway can say, “Nuffin’ to do wiv us, gov. Take it up with the other company.“

 

[357]

I have wasted an afternoon due to, as far as I’m concerned, sheer incompetence on the railway’s part.

I think you wasted an afternoon due to your inability to look after your belongings.

Please ensure you have all your belongings with you when you leave the train

 

[Mike395]

I think you wasted an afternoon due to your inability to look after your belongings.

Please ensure you have all your belongings with you when you leave the train

See #4

 

[Qwerty133]

First of all contacted EMR; unfortunately by the time their (by own admission short staffed) colleague replied the train had finished its journey and carriage swept by the cleaners. Sure enough, I watched the AirTag and it didn’t leave on the train my inbound formed.

If it's anything like most departments at EMR they are short staffed at weekends (and other undesirable times) simply because previous management permitted far too many flexible working requests that were incompatible with the needs of the business (to the point that some ticket offices regularly had more staff available than physical positions to work at during the popular hours to work).

 

[GuyGibsonVC]

With the increase in leisure travel at weekends, you would have thought they may have changed the times that Lost Property was open and had some service at a weekend.

I agree with your sentiment, though. I wonder how much they will charge you to return it?

 

[Adam Williams]

Hotels are much better at dealing with lost property than the rail industry, which remains in the stone age in this and other areas.

I've never been charged to retrieve an item I left behind, on the one occasion I did, I got an email with a photo of the item and was able to very easily schedule an appointment (at any time of day, on any day, I might add) when I was back up in Manchester and retrieve it free of charge. That system was done entirely in-house, and the customer experience was markedly better as a result. The room wasn't particularly cheap, and I expected the costs of services like this to be covered by the rate - much like the other amenities provided by the hotel. Much like the fares I find myself having to pay after even more recent above-inflation price hikes.

Yes, in these cases it is the passenger's mistake - but last I checked tickets were sold to humans (who can make mistakes!) rather than robots.

Once again, I feel the need to remind some folks here that rail has to compete against other modes of transport and "f**k you, it was your screw-up, where's your personal responsibility?" (which is an attitude we've also seen expressed towards stranded children and folks who end up low on battery) is a terrible way of trying to encourage more modal shift, revenue recovery and reduction in taxpayer subsidy.

Do I have any of this nonsense if I accidentally leave an item in my car and forget to take it with me? No.

 

[OscarH]

I do find the "personal responsibility" posts in this thread interesting given the tendency for this forum to defend the railway with "the workers are human and everyone makes mistakes", yet when the passenger makes a mistake then should simply not have.

Just how many people are going to turn up on a Sunday to collect items they mislaid?

While it would be unreasonable to expect 24/7, the poster suggested it is weekdays only - given the rather large amount of people who work a Mon-Fri 9-5 and where the lost property office may be a significant distance from them, weekends would seem quite a popular time for collection to me.

 

[Adam Williams]

While it would be unreasonable to expect 24/7, the poster suggested it is weekdays only - given the rather large amount of people who work a Mon-Fri 9-5 and where the lost property office may be a significant distance from them, weekends would seem quite a popular time for collection to me.

With more people travelling on weekends than ever, we’re adjusting the savings Super Off Peak fares offer on Saturdays and Sundays to better reflect changes in demand on some of our routes from Sunday 7th September.

Enough people travelling on weekends to justify a fare hike, but not to provide a basic service provision (retrieving lost property).

Make it make sense.

 

[43066]

Enough people travelling on weekends to justify a fare hike, but not to provide a basic service provision (retrieving lost property).

Make it make sense.

A fare hike reduces the burden on taxpayers, or at least stops it increasing quite so quickly. Paying for a gold plated lost property service doesn’t. Quite simple really!

 

[Mattplans]

the tendency for this forum to defend the railway with "the workers are human and everyone makes mistakes", yet when the passenger makes a mistake then should simply not have.

Agree completely! Some people seem eager to defend every shortcoming of the railway and pretend that everything is ran well.

 

[Sakuradori]

Should the railway keep a staffed office open for…how many hours…to satisfy people who have made a mistake?

If it's sub-contracted to a private company that makes a lot of money from handling lost property... yes! Not 24hrs, at all, but 7 days a week should be expected.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Hotels are much better at dealing with lost property than the rail industry, which remains in the stone age in this and other areas.

I've never been charged to retrieve an item I left behind, on the one occasion I did, I got an email with a photo of the item and was able to very easily schedule an appointment (at any time of day, on any day, I might add) when I was back up in Manchester and retrieve it free of charge. That system was done entirely in-house, and the customer experience was markedly better as a result. The room wasn't particularly cheap, and I expected the costs of services like this to be covered by the rate - much like the other amenities provided by the hotel. Much like the fares I find myself having to pay after even more recent above-inflation price hikes.

Yes, in these cases it is the passenger's mistake - but last I checked tickets were sold to humans (who can make mistakes!) rather than robots.

Once again, I feel the need to remind some folks here that rail has to compete against other modes of transport and "f**k you, it was your screw-up, where's your personal responsibility?" (which is an attitude we've also seen expressed towards stranded children and folks who end up low on battery) is a terrible way of trying to encourage more modal shift, revenue recovery and reduction in taxpayer subsidy.

Do I have any of this nonsense if I accidentally leave an item in my car and forget to take it with me? No.

Of course, the difference between a hotel and the railway is that a hotel very much remains in one place. It doesn't end up 100+ miles away, at a location operated by a third party, possibly even a location inaccessible to the public.

That's not to say that the railway lost property system can't be improved - it absolutely certainly can. But it's certainly a challenging task to coordinate lost property when things can end up hundreds of miles away from where they were lost and there can be so many different organisations involved.

 

[alistairlees]

I largely agree with what @Adam Williams is saying. I find the comments / attitudes of many quite astonishing, really.

However, here's a good new story (lost-property-wise)

In spring one of my team was travelling with her husband and two young sons (6 and 11) from London to Glasgow on the Caledonian Sleeper. The youngest child had a favourite cuddly toy with him - a lion or similar I think. Unfortunately they left it on the train and did not realise until they had got on a flight back to Poland.

The Caledonian Sleeper team found the cuddly toy, photographed it on the platform at Glasgow Central with the sleeper in the background, then in various other locations in the city, then added a story to social media about what a wonderful adventure the toy was having but finally, after all his adventures, he was longing to be back with his family, then posted him to Poland (free of charge).

The child was overjoyed and amazed.

Obviously it's easy to identify who a lost item belongs to on the Caledonian Sleeper, and to contact them but, putting that aside, that's how you deliver excellent customer service and connect with your customers emotionally.

Other TOCs: please read, no excuses. Thanks.

 

[Adam Williams]

In spring one of my team was travelling with her husband and two young sons (6 and 11) from London to Glasgow on the Caledonian Sleeper. The youngest child had a favourite cuddly toy with him - a lion or similar I think. Unfortunately they left it on the train and did not realise until they had got on a flight back to Poland.

The Caledonian Sleeper team found the cuddly toy, photographed it on the platform at Glasgow Central with the sleeper in the background, then in various other locations in the city, then added a story to social media about what a wonderful adventure the toy was having but finally, after all his adventures, he was longing to be back with his family, then posted him to Poland (free of charge).

The child was overjoyed and amazed.

Obviously it's easy to identify who a lost item belongs to on the Caledonian Sleeper, and to contact them but, putting that aside, that's how you deliver excellent customer service and connect with your customers emotionally.

Other TOCs: please read, no excuses. Thanks.

Aww, this is exactly how it should be done (and in a hotel that very much does not remain in one place! ) - and the sort of gesture that will leave a lasting impression on a whole family.

 

[jon0844]

Many TOCs have done similar things with items that might have huge sentimental value like a teddy bear over the years. That sounds like a particularly nice example!

Usually collecting from a station will be free if it hasn't gone off to central facilities (which means a delay in transit and being booked in, plus a retrieval fee).

The problem will be that someone on a train might hand the item in at any station (or even take it home and then bring to a main station the next time they travel, thinking they're doing a nice thing). Or an item remains on a train and goes all the way back to the origin station, or isn't seen and goes ECS to a depot.

Some stations might be operated by another TOC that uses another company for lost property instead of doing it in house.

One example might be leaving something on a Cambridge train from King's Cross. If found by the cleaners at Cambridge, it will be Greater Anglia you need to check with and they outsource lost property where GTR doesn't.

Maybe GB Railways will standardise all of this?

 

[Hadders]

So EMR contact out lost property to the Excess Baggage company at St Pancras. Excess Baggage company at St Pancras is open 7-days a week from 07:00 until 23:00 but they only deal with lost property on weekdays.

This seems ridiculous.

 

[nanstallon]

I do find the "personal responsibility" posts in this thread interesting given the tendency for this forum to defend the railway with "the workers are human and everyone makes mistakes", yet when the passenger makes a mistake then should simply not have.



While it would be unreasonable to expect 24/7, the poster suggested it is weekdays only - given the rather large amount of people who work a Mon-Fri 9-5 and where the lost property office may be a significant distance from them, weekends would seem quite a popular time for collection to me.

Agreed - the railways are typical of the British attitude to customer service. They want the customer to be perfect; certainly keeping his/her phone fully charged and not being inconvenient in any way.

Hotels are far better - once on a train expedition in the Far North, I stayed the night in a B&B in Lairg. I left some shaving gear behind and got a taxi to the station. I hadn't realised that I had left anything behind, but a few minutes before the Wick train arrived, the same taxi came back - the B&B proprietor had seen my razor etc and asked the taxi to take it up for me. He wouldn't accept any reimbursement for the journey (and din't say anything about having been already paid by the B&B!)- a far cry from outsourcing lost property to some outfit which no doubt saw a chance to make some money.

I am lucky enough not to have left anything on a train, except once. Some years ago, I was on an Ipswich to Lowestoft train and realising that a steam special was going to cross at Halesworth, I asked the conductor if it was safe to get out of the train to photograph the steam special, and then get back on. Being assured that it was, I left my rucsac on the train and took my photo, only to not be able to get back on the Lowestoft train; the conductor was smirking and saying 'you're too late'. I studied the local timetables, and worked out that the train might then go to Norwich and then come back to Lowestoft. Arriving at Lowestoft on the next train, I got on the train arriving from Norwich to find my rucsac still there!

 

[Mike395]

So EMR contact out lost property to the Excess Baggage company at St Pancras. Excess Baggage company at St Pancras is open 7-days a week from 07:00 until 23:00 but they only deal with lost property on weekdays.

This seems ridiculous.

What's more ridiculous is this is only limited to their railway locations. Seemingly airports (eg Gatwick) that use Excess Baggage Co for Lost Property handling are more competent at contract negotiation and have negotiated lost property handling at all times the unit is open.

 

[nwales58]

The bad bit, for the customer, is contracting out to Excess Baggage or some other company.

Did the keys actually go into their St Pancras place or some warehouse operation? Manchester airport seems to send everything off-site.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

If you think that's bad - you try dealing with Missing X com, which some parts of the railway use as their contractor... For starters, if you did a journey where the item could have potentially been lost on one of three different operators, you simply cannot detail that on the claim. You can only do one operator per claim... they say if you open a separate claim for a second operator, you can link the two claims together - but you can't. They also clearly do not read any communications and respond only with standard copy and pasted text.

 

[Vexed]

If you think that's bad - you try dealing with Missing X com, which some parts of the railway use as their contractor... For starters, if you did a journey where the item could have potentially been lost on one of three different operators, you simply cannot detail that on the claim. You can only do one operator per claim... they say if you open a separate claim for a second operator, you can link the two claims together - but you can't. They also clearly do not read any communications and respond only with standard copy and pasted text.

It's not been great to use. I left some running shoes behind in the overhead racks on an XC terminating at Bournemouth and between SWR and XC I think I've given up hope of getting them back!

In contrast a couple years ago I left a rucksack behind (in the overheads again!) on a southbound Thameslink service (getting off at Haywards Heath) and the Twitter team helpfully got someone to check when it went northbound again through Three Bridges, and they retrieved it and I collected it that evening on my way back.

 

[Steddenm]

Aww, this is exactly how it should be done (and in a hotel that very much does not remain in one place! ) - and the sort of gesture that will leave a lasting impression on a whole family.

Virgin Trains used to have luggage tags you could attach to your teddy and it had space to write the teddy's name and the owners name and a contact number, with the hashtag #TeddyTracker and if somebody found it it had instructions on how to track the user or post it on social media.