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Passenger train consists as Open Data

Poggs

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Yesterday, it was announced that the rail industry have released passenger train consists (via WebGEMINI) as Open Data on the Rail Data Marketplace.

Expect sites other than RTT to have unit allocations and much more detail very soon :)
 
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Peter Mugridge

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Yesterday, it was announced that the rail industry have released passenger train consists (via WebGEMINI) as Open Data on the Rail Data Marketplace.

Expect sites other than RTT to have unit allocations and much more detail very soon :)
Would this also mean that those TOCs which have so far refused to join "Know your train" are now going to find their allocations released anyway?
 

Class 466

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Atherton, UK
Would this also mean that those TOCs which have so far refused to join "Know your train" are now going to find their allocations released anyway?
If so - this is fantastic news. Especially as some operators have been clear they’ll never join RTTs service unfortunately.
 

Tom

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Seeing as we've been explicitly called out here as not having it, I feel like I need to write a response. As Peter has said, the data has been released to the Rail Data Marketplace. I'm happy that it has now been released so given that a quest of the last 5 years has been persuading TOCs that it is not scary and that it is fine. Events have now overtaken the rest of the operators that were resistant for various reasons.

RTT up until now has not been signed up to the Rail Data Marketplace. I've had some quite extensive discussions with my team and people I trust in the industry over the last few weeks given we knew this was coming. We have registered it for it* today, against my better judgement, because ultimately it has been inhibitor of some stuff we've wanted to do and also we would not be doing right by our millions of users if we did not do so.

I normally stick quite firmly to my principles and beliefs. So here's what they are.

1.
Open Data should not have any form of gate keeping on it and it should be free and available to all. RDM has an approval process which, in the past, users have apparently been rejected from. That doesn't feel very "Open": Open Data should be accessible by all without limitation. There are various clauses in the licences around the platform that I'm uncomfortable with, albeit some of them have been smoothed out following my requests. It has an overarching overtly commercial approach to data that is almost all free.

2.
It's the wrong solution to the right problem. It has introduced a Single Point of Failure into many railway products and it appears to me that there is no realistic route to escalating them. It was suggested to me as a discovery platform but instead it is somewhat of an overengineered system that is all things to all people.

3.
And finally, it has the wrong custodian. When it was being rolled out I was being actively pushed to migrating my commercial clients over to it. RDM have told me that there is no commercial wall between RDM and the rest of RDG - which deeply concerns me. RDG are uniquely placed in this industry to co-ordinate and develop solutions to problems with privileged access. In my entire time in the industry, I have seen them do this multiple times with things I have done including very recently. That isn't necessarily problem once something is in the public domain - but why would you want to give them a head start? Why would I, or anyone else, want to give RDG indicators as to what we are up to? That would be seen as commercially sensitive anywhere else.

Last time I raised this as a significant concern, the response came back that I should stop being so cynical. That does not really bring me great trust if I'm going to put my eggs in one basket and rely on my livelihood from it.



* I'm sure they'll take their time approving it though.

(I should point out that I've said all this on public fora in the past, albeit with smaller audiences.)
 
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sad1e

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Hopefully there are plans to introduce this into websites such as Trasky , RTT and Railrecord quickly.

Very excited about this , will make it so much easier to tick off units of various classes that love to evade me ( 378138 I'm looking at you )
 

Intercity_225

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Hopefully there are plans to introduce this into websites such as Trasky , RTT and Railrecord quickly.

Very excited about this , will make it so much easier to tick off units of various classes that love to evade me ( 378138 I'm looking at you )
Sorry to burst your bubble but London Overground isn't included in this!
 

sad1e

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Sorry to burst your bubble but London Overground isn't included in this!
Any reason why , if other operators that have refused to give up their information to the Know your train scheme have had their passenger consists released why not LO ?
 

trainmania100

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Newhaven
Great work by Peter and partners to get this information available.

Having had a quick look, It is very strange data, I have been working so not had much time to look but here's a screen grab from another website , at first I thought it was just reversing moves that put "waypoints" in the feed, but it's not , it's very strange.
Seen a few like this. Where the same units are put into separated individual "runs" inside the same working.
 

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Tom

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Having had a quick look, It is very strange data, I have been working so not had much time to look but here's a screen grab from another website , at first I thought it was just reversing moves that put "waypoints" in the feed, but it's not , it's very strange.
Seen a few like this. Where the same units are put into separated individual "runs" inside the same working.
This is entirely normal behaviour for Gemini - depends on TOC and diagrams as to what locations get put in.
 

Robski

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Messages
333
Great work by Peter and partners to get this information available.

Having had a quick look, It is very strange data, I have been working so not had much time to look but here's a screen grab from another website , at first I thought it was just reversing moves that put "waypoints" in the feed, but it's not , it's very strange.
Seen a few like this. Where the same units are put into separated individual "runs" inside the same working.
I'm working on a fix to prevent it showing like that, should be live sometime tonight.
 

trainmania100

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I wonder if there’s a reason why Freight companies are never (GBRf excluded) willing to collaborate on this kind of thing?
Hopefully it will happen at some point given most TOPS data is already available "on demand". Eg through groups.io where various groups publish loco pool lists daily...
 

ainsworth74

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Well there's a spot of good news! It's been clear for ages that the final holdouts need to get with the program so glad to see they've now not been given a choice in the matter. I must admit, well expressed and valid concerns aside, that one of things I do think we do better than anyone else in Europe is the provision of data for third parties to make use of. I can't recall come across any other network that makes available the sort of data that we do to enable the really powerful information tools that we end up taking a bit for granted over here! The number of times I've been stood on a platform somewhere wishing for RTT, Traksy, OTT and similar is unmeasurable!

So also a well done and thank you to everyone that has helped make things like this happen and then put all that information to such good use!
 

CR165022

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Hopefully there are plans to introduce this into websites such as Trasky , RTT and Railrecord quickly.

Very excited about this , will make it so much easier to tick off units of various classes that love to evade me ( 378138 I'm looking at you )
A way to find LO units I've found is that the signaller sometimes inputs what unit is in that berth in a depot. So whilst it doesn't exactly help what diagram the unit will be on, it at least shows where it would be working out of.
 

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Class15

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A way to find LO units I've found is that the signaller sometimes inputs what unit is in that berth in a depot. So whilst it doesn't exactly help what diagram the unit will be on, it at least shows where it would be working out of.
This is normally the case at Wembley and New Cross Gate. Of course, a /1 is very likely to stable at NXG, so the lack of this practice at Willesden is not an issue really!
 

Park47515

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Messages
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Seeing as we've been explicitly called out here as not having it, I feel like I need to write a response. As Peter has said, the data has been released to the Rail Data Marketplace. I'm happy that it has now been released so given that a quest of the last 5 years has been persuading TOCs that it is not scary and that it is fine. Events have now overtaken the rest of the operators that were resistant for various reasons.

RTT up until now has not been signed up to the Rail Data Marketplace. I've had some quite extensive discussions with my team and people I trust in the industry over the last few weeks given we knew this was coming. We have registered it for it* today, against my better judgement, because ultimately it has been inhibitor of some stuff we've wanted to do and also we would not be doing right by our millions of users if we did not do so.

I normally stick quite firmly to my principles and beliefs. So here's what they are.

1.
Open Data should not have any form of gate keeping on it and it should be free and available to all. RDM has an approval process which, in the past, users have apparently been rejected from. That doesn't feel very "Open": Open Data should be accessible by all without limitation. There are various clauses in the licences around the platform that I'm uncomfortable with, albeit some of them have been smoothed out following my requests. It has an overarching overtly commercial approach to data that is almost all free.

2.
It's the wrong solution to the right problem. It has introduced a Single Point of Failure into many railway products and it appears to me that there is no realistic route to escalating them. It was suggested to me as a discovery platform but instead it is somewhat of an overengineered system that is all things to all people.

3.
And finally, it has the wrong custodian. When it was being rolled out I was being actively pushed to migrating my commercial clients over to it. RDM have told me that there is no commercial wall between RDM and the rest of RDG - which deeply concerns me. RDG are uniquely placed in this industry to co-ordinate and develop solutions to problems with privileged access. In my entire time in the industry, I have seen them do this multiple times with things I have done including very recently. That isn't necessarily problem once something is in the public domain - but why would you want to give them a head start? Why would I, or anyone else, want to give RDG indicators as to what we are up to? That would be seen as commercially sensitive anywhere else.

Last time I raised this as a significant concern, the response came back that I should stop being so cynical. That does not really bring me great trust if I'm going to put my eggs in one basket and rely on my livelihood from it.



* I'm sure they'll take their time approving it though.

(I should point out that I've said all this on public fora in the past, albeit with smaller audiences.)
Point three fundamentally sounds like it could impact things if RDG don't change things...
 

JonathanH

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Kite159

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London Bridge is looking totally different this morning with most of the trains showing how many coaches they have.

Although no doubt there will be someone within a particular operator annoyed with this as they didn't like RTT showing allocations.
 

Tony2

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Messages
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Superb to see the vast majority of unit allocations available now, having more information available to customers can only benefit the TOCs.

As well as London Overground not showing, Tyne and Wear metro aren’t as well.
 

bnsf734

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Thank you Realtime Trains for the quick work in showing the allocations for Merseyrail, South Eastern, Thameslink, Great Northern and Southern. All showing this morning. Also now showing up are the Elizabeth Line unit numbers.
 
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1D54

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I can't thank all those involved with these updates enough. It is so much appreciated.
 

Tony2

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Messages
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And Sheffield supertram and London underground.
Sheffield is a third as the timings already show on RTT, but do any London Underground timings show anywhere at present? Can’t even find the locations of LU such as Epping Forest, unless I’m missing something.
 

Class15

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Sheffield is a third as the timings already show on RTT, but do any London Underground timings show anywhere at present? Can’t even find the locations of LU such as Epping Forest, unless I’m missing something.
Gunnersbury to Richmond and Queens Park to Harrow spring to mind.
 

Freightmaster

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Gunnersbury to Richmond and Queens Park to Harrow spring to mind.

Bakerloo line example:

District line example:


Interestingly, District line trains between Wimbledon and East Putney don't show on RTT,
despite running on Network Rail metals.



MARK
 

Poggs

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Seeing as we've been explicitly called out here as not having it, I feel like I need to write a response
It feels like you think I'm calling RTT out for not subscribing to the feed. If so, that's not correct - I was saying that now *everyone* can access the data.
 

JonathanH

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Messages
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Bakerloo line example:

District line example:
Those don't show allocations, unless I am missing something.
Interestingly, District line trains between Wimbledon and East Putney don't show on RTT,
despite running on Network Rail metals.



MARK
There was a time when they did show, although at a different Wimbledon station. I seem to remember that they were either 1Ixx or 2Ixx depending on whether they were Edgware Road or 'City' services.
 

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