Penalty fare notice stage 3 failure

[Fawkes Cat]

I know this won't be exactly what the OP wants to hear, but taking the OP's position alongside with their partner, overall it's not too bad a result.

That's because in the first place, as I understand it a penalty fare was issued to both OP and their partner.

By hard work, you've managed to overturn the penalty fare on the partner. Despite trying really hard, you haven't managed to overturn the one on the OP.

That's not the result you wanted - and you still lost. But you haven't lost as badly as if you hadn't tried to appeal.

It's a small victory having managed to win for your partner - but treat that as a success.

 

[John R]

I’d bet half a dollar they said “Take the Preston train and change at Manchester” but after the overnight flight you didn’t hear them properly.

 

[Danksy]

If you hold a ticket on a phone and you are unable to show it when requested, you will be in exactly the same situation of being liable to a Penalty Fare. It's very simple, you must be able to produce your ticket and, if relevant, railcard when requested to do so. the current regulations are hardly fitting with the current state of technology there's a clear reform needed if your phone dies when getting onto a national express coach they can find it from your booking name and card why is the railway so special?

 

[John R]

Unfortunately adhd is part of being unorganised and forgetful especially when you are unmedicated due to shortages on the nhs by any chance do you know anyone that lives with adhd ask them your brains like a sieve

You are not addressing the point though that part of the reason for the companion discount is so that they can assist you and compensate for any reduced ability.

 

[Danksy]

I’d bet half a dollar they said “Take the Preston train and change at Manchester” but after the overnight flight you didn’t hear them properly.

Maybe we didn't hear them properly but what about the ticket inspector on the train that said nothing after seeing our tickets? the only reason we was in Preston is because of poor advice from the staff

 

[John R]

the current regulations are hardly fitting with the current state of technology there's a clear reform needed if your phone dies when getting onto a national express coach they can find it from your booking name and card why is the railway so special?

Because a one-off ticket check as you board a coach with around 50 people is somewhat different to the rail network where a ticket check can occur at any point in the journey, and often hundreds of tickets are being checked in a very short period.

 

[Haywain]

the only reason we was in Preston is because of poor advice from the staff

And if you had produced your ticket when requested you might be able to use that argument. If you had arrived at Warrington and failed to produce your ticket the situation would be no different.

 

[John R]

Maybe we didn't hear them properly but what about the ticket inspector on the train that said nothing after seeing our tickets? the only reason we was in Preston is because of poor advice from the staff

Because from this comment

this was 7.30am shortly after leaving the station we had an inspector that checked the tickets

you were still on the right train, having not got as far as Manchester.

 

[Danksy]

You are not addressing the point though that part of the reason for the companion discount is so that they can assist you and compensate for any reduced ability.

Again my fault for not reading pages of jargon on a railcard that i use less than 20 times a year its all just passing the blame around they gave me bad advice it turned into a series of unfortunate events where i ended up in an unfamiliar place im not going to explain myself regarding my disability or mental health you wasn't there and you dont know me ill post on a disability forum might get some more respect around there

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Sep 2025 ==

Because a one-off ticket check as you board a coach with around 50 people is somewhat different to the rail network where a ticket check can occur at any point in the journey, and often hundreds of tickets are being checked in a very short period.

Its the same principal sometimes changing over at stations and getting onto another coach they both have wheels and an engine what's the difference

 

[WesternLancer]

Transport focus have taken on the case under the grounds of part D ill follow up the mp

Thanks - glad you have done this, - do keep us posted on how things work out.

I have sympathy for the staff who have to deal with fares enforcement (there are so many genuine evaders out there it must be a difficult job) - but it does sound like you could have been given more discretion over what happened. But obv I was not there at the time to see it from the other point of view.

Have you paid the Penalty fare to prevent it escalating / increasing in cost to you?

That would be refunded if Transport Focus can achieve a positive outcome for you so in my view there is no reason not to pay it now.

 

[AlterEgo]

The companion on a Disabled railcard is not necessarily expected to assist the holder or act as their carer. You can travel with anyone.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Again my fault for not reading pages of jargon on a railcard that i use less than 20 times a year its all just passing the blame around they gave me bad advice it turned into a series of unfortunate events where i ended up in an unfamiliar place im not going to explain myself regarding my disability or mental health you wasn't there and you dont know me ill post on a disability forum might get some more respect around there

This forum is the most respectful I have ever encountered and is heavily moderated to keep it so. With respect, you have been given good, accurate, informed advice and the members here have taken at face value and in good faith everything you have said happened and your circumstances. You may well get more people agreeing with your grievances and sympathising with you on another forum, but it won't give you better advice in how to handle this or deliver bad news to you more respectfully.

You admit you may have misheard/misunderstood the staff advice, and then been checked on a valid portion of your route; if so it's not the staff's fault either. Penalty fares are not prosecutions and are intended for honest mistakes, one of which sadly you made. This forum indeed goes to great lengths to help people who have made very much not honest mistakes, let alone truly unfortunate cases like yours, but there's only so much we can do after three appeals have already been exhausted. If you think this forum is packed with apologists for the railway, that is far from the truth.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The companion on a Disabled railcard is not necessarily expected to assist the holder or act as their carer. You can travel with anyone.

The rationale for extending the discount to the companion- whoever it may be- is that the companion is there to support the disabled person.

That's not to say the companion should be expected to be responsible for the disabled person and act as their carer. They're a companion, not a guardian.

But I do think it is reasonable, in the circumstances, for the Tribunal to consider whether the presence of a companion affects whether there are "compelling reasons" why the Disabled Person should not be liable for the Penalty Fare. "I misplaced my ticket due to ADHD" is less of a compelling reason when there is someone sitting next to them receiving a significant discount because they are a companion.

That's not to say I don't have sympathy with the OP, and I am somewhat surprised that the independent panel didn't simply file "holding a Disabled Persons Railcard" as sufficient to demonstrate compelling reasons.

 

[Danksy]

I think its very unlikely that both myself and my partner misheard them its just getting insulting at this point im to blame my partners to blame anything but the broken laws of the railway that's apparently there to stop fare evaders but yet it traps innocent people for one mistake and not understanding the rules of the railway the media is full of it its shocking its clearly a cash machine.

Once i was abroad i forgot to tap off the tram this invalidated my ticket ultimately the staff sorted it because they realised it was a genuine mistake because i didn't understand the system but yet here in uk you are assumed a criminal if your ticket got wet in the rain ? Great picture for British tourism accidentally get on a northern train when you was booked on a transpennine only service and your English isn't the best it was a genuine mistake but wait was it lets hope they get some discretion such a situation arise.

Im contacting penalty fares today to ask how much is left on the "clock" as of course i intend to pay at the very last moment i will be asking them for an exact deadline as its not stated anywhere how long i have left of that 21 days to pay but i guess i may have to calculate that myself as well.

Hopefully they put the money into staff training and actually getting services running instead of replacement taxis im not shamed to say that Northern are a joke

 

[Fawkes Cat]

i intend to pay at the very last moment

I understand why you would want to do this - but (in my opinion anyhow) it would be better to swallow your pride on that point, and pay as soon as possible: if it turns out that you get it wrong, you may find yourself facing the £100 penalty instead of the £50 'prompt payment' version (in both cases, plus the train fare). Just think how angry you will be if they end up chasing you for an extra £50 when the whole experience hasn't been good.

 

[WesternLancer]

Im contacting penalty fares today to ask how much is left on the "clock" as of course i intend to pay at the very last moment i will be asking them for an exact deadline as its not stated anywhere how long i have left of that 21 days to pay but i guess i may have to calculate that myself as well.

Do not do this IMHO - we see cases on here where systems go down or payments won't go through from the payee's bank due to some glitch or other and then you miss the payment deadline - you will have loads of hassle to sort it out and if the problem was your end (eg with your bank or payment card) then they will cut you no slack.

Northern are run by the government - ie they are nationalised - they have more resources than you do when it comes to enforcing payment via court action etc.

Pay it not later then 3 days before your deadline, or before that.

 

[Mag_seven]

@Danksy I suggest you have been given all the information you need to decide how to proceed with your issue.

Please contact us when you have an outcome and we can reopen the thread for an update.