Penalty fare notice stage 3 failure

[Danksy]

Hi all just found this forum after searching im at my wits end with the appeal i have had help from citizens advice but all 3 have been unsuccessful i will give you a brief overview of my journey.

I was travelling from Manchester Airport to Warrington central with my partner using my disabled persons railcard i had purchased tickets at a machine at Manchester Airport i asked the staff what train to board i was advised by the staff at the ticket gate to get the Blackpool North train and change at preston this was 7.30am shortly after leaving the station we had an inspector that checked the tickets and didn't say anything being early in the morning we was tired and had dozed off i woke up and heard the train was approaching Preston i quickly grabbed my thing's in panic for whatever reason i put the tickets in my backpack where they fell down into my clothes i have adhd and this is where things went wrong i looked around the station for the bathroom and couldn't find it as im unfamiliar with Preston this is when i was approached by a revenue protection he asked if i was ok and said he was doing an audit on where people are travelling from this is how he obtained my information he then asks for tickets i couldn't find them in my pockets i instantly started panicking i said i think i left them on the train and that i have a disabled railcard and may have left it as im clumsy with adhd and im not trying it on he then says they can check cctv ect or i can get bank records to prove my ticket i would just need to appeal as he is now issuing a penalty fare he done the same for my partner after leaving the station and sitting down to get my possessions out i seen them i went back to the station and was advised i would have to appeal online but they felt it should be accepted i quickly put a basic appeal in and got rejected they have argued that i didn't have a ticket ect back and forth i was advised i should have been given extra time to find the tickets under the equality act they had been notified they are now saying it was my partners responsibility to find the ticket and my disability is not relevant to the situation.

On the 3rd appeal my partners got accepted as they issued us different pricing despite being together.

I hope this clarifys my situation

Thanks in advance any help is appreciated im now lost where to go from here

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Sep 2025 ==

Hi all just found this forum after searching im at my wits end with the appeal i have had help from citizens advice but all 3 have been unsuccessful i will give you a brief overview of my journey.

I was travelling from Manchester Airport to Warrington central with my partner using my disabled persons railcard i had purchased tickets at a machine at Manchester Airport i asked the staff what train to board i was advised by the staff at the ticket gate to get the Blackpool North train and change at preston this was 7.30am shortly after leaving the station we had an inspector that checked the tickets and didn't say anything being early in the morning we was tired and had dozed off i woke up and heard the train was approaching Preston i quickly grabbed my thing's in panic for whatever reason i put the tickets in my backpack where they fell down into my clothes i have adhd and this is where things went wrong i looked around the station for the bathroom and couldn't find it as im unfamiliar with Preston this is when i was approached by a revenue protection he asked if i was ok and said he was doing an audit on where people are travelling from this is how he obtained my information he then asks for tickets i couldn't find them in my pockets i instantly started panicking i said i think i left them on the train and that i have a disabled railcard and may have left it as im clumsy with adhd and im not trying it on he then says they can check cctv ect or i can get bank records to prove my ticket i would just need to appeal as he is now issuing a penalty fare he done the same for my partner after leaving the station and sitting down to get my possessions out i seen them i went back to the station and was advised i would have to appeal online but they felt it should be accepted i quickly put a basic appeal in and got rejected they have argued that i didn't have a ticket ect back and forth i was advised i should have been given extra time to find the tickets under the equality act they had been notified they are now saying it was my partners responsibility to find the ticket and my disability is not relevant to the situation.

On the 3rd appeal my partners got accepted as they issued us different pricing despite being together.

I hope this clarifys my situation

Thanks in advance any help is appreciated im now lost where to go from here

I forgot to add all this happened within 10 minutes of me getting off the train at preston i dont feel like I was given enough time and pressured into the penalty fare

 

[GadgetMan]

Leaving aside whether your appeal should've been accepted or not.

You can't really argue you should've been given more time to present your ticket once you'd reached the conclusion and shared with the inspector that you must have left the tickets and railcard on previous train. As no amount of time was going to then allow your tickets to reappear. As you couldn't even produce the disabled railcard, the rpi had no way of confirming you genuinely do have a disabled person's railcard.

Add to that the context of you wondering around looking lost which may give the impression you are trying to avoid revenue protection and/or ticket barriers.

You've used up all 3 appeals allowed.

However post a copy of the penalty fares with personal information redacted and others may advise what other avenues you could explore.

 

[John R]

What do you mean they used different pricing for your partner?

It's not clear whether you did find your tickets and presented them with any appeal. It would be helpful if you could reproduce on here what you put in each of your appeals.

On the basis of what you've said though, you were stopped and failed to present a valid ticket, and a penalty fare is an appropriate sanction for that. You have three appeals, all of which have failed, and so unless you are able to appeal to the rail company's good nature, you have run out of options, and need to pay the penalty. As the "clock stops" during any appeal period, you may still be able to pay the lower sum, and if so, I would encourage you to do that if possible.

One thing does puzzle me though - I'm not from the region but that's a very odd routing to take to get from Manchester Airport to Warrington, which does make me wonder if there is any more to this story than we know so far.

 

[Haywain]

To add to the above comments, if you held a ticket from Manchester Airport to Warrington this would not have been a valid ticket at Preston in any case, and issuing a Penalty Fare is an appropriate remedy to such a situation.

 

[Danksy]

What do you mean they used different pricing for your partner?

It's not clear whether you did find your tickets and presented them with any appeal. It would be helpful if you could reproduce on here what you put in each of your appeals.

On the basis of what you've said though, you were stopped and failed to present a valid ticket, and a penalty fare is an appropriate sanction for that. You have three appeals, all of which have failed, and so unless you are able to appeal to the rail company's good nature, you have run out of options, and need to pay the penalty. As the "clock stops" during any appeal period, you may still be able to pay the lower sum, and if so, I would encourage you to do that if possible.

One thing does puzzle me though - I'm not from the region but that's a very odd routing to take to get from Manchester Airport to Warrington, which does make me wonder if there is any more to this story than we know so far.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Sep 2025 ==

Myself and my partner was together at the time but they had issued her penalty fare around £2 higher than mine despite listing the same journey details so seems they messed up on that one.

Tickets and a copy of the railcard was sent with the appeal within an hour of me getting the getting the penalty fare i was to shook up over it and decided to find somewhere to get something to eat and compose myself the officer was fairly pushy and i dont like confrontation resulting me leaving the station.


As regards to the routing i had made a complaint on the phone to Northern about the whole situation where they advised i had been given bad guidance as i should of changed at one of the Manchester stations to change over i just went with what the station staff said but i have now learnt they are transpennine owned so maybe unfamiliar with the routes themselves but yet the northern train ticket inspector didn't advise otherwise.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Sep 2025 ==

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Sep 2025 ==

Myself and my partner was together at the time but they had issued her penalty fare around £2 higher than mine despite listing the same journey details so seems they messed up on that one.

Tickets and a copy of the railcard was sent with the appeal within an hour of me getting the getting the penalty fare i was to shook up over it and decided to find somewhere to get something to eat and compose myself the officer was fairly pushy and i dont like confrontation resulting me leaving the station.


As regards to the routing i had made a complaint on the phone to Northern about the whole situation where they advised i had been given bad guidance as i should of changed at one of the Manchester stations to change over i just went with what the station staff said but i have now learnt they are transpennine owned so maybe unfamiliar with the routes themselves but yet the northern train ticket inspector didn't advise otherwise.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Sep 2025 ==

I will clarify further about the approach of the officer at no point did he ask for the railcard if he did i have a digital copy that i would have presented without issue after listening to his whole story about an audit i genuinely thought it was an audit i haven't seen or heard about the revenue protection officers before he was advised i was using a railcard as so was my partner he then he asked for tickets i then panicked as i couldn't find them in my coat or trouser pockets my partner couldn't find them he almost instantly issued the penalty fare because i said i maybe left them on the train im under the impression he wasn't interested in giving me time to try to find them as he already issued it.

Again all this happened within 10 minutes i had multiple bags from holiday the tickets could have been anywhere it was only when i was comfortable and given time to calm down that i could effectively find them

I will have to get to my computer to edit the letters and i will get back to you regarding them

 

[WesternLancer]

Leaving aside whether your appeal should've been accepted or not.

You can't really argue you should've been given more time to present your ticket once you'd reached the conclusion and shared with the inspector that you must have left the tickets and railcard on previous train. As no amount of time was going to then allow your tickets to reappear. As you couldn't even produce the disabled railcard, the rpi had no way of confirming you genuinely do have a disabled person's railcard.

Add to that the context of you wondering around looking lost which may give the impression you are trying to avoid revenue protection and/or ticket barriers.

You've used up all 3 appeals allowed.

However post a copy of the penalty fares with personal information redacted and others may advise what other avenues you could explore.

I think it may help if you uploaded a copy of each of your appeals stage one two and three and each response sent back to you.

Remove your personal details

But I’m not sure if there is anything you can do if you have used all three appeal stages. Experts here will know if any other options.

Do not miss the 50% discount for prompt payment now your three appeals have been exhausted.

This would be refunded if there was any further way to get the penalty fare overturned.

You have my sympathy over what has happened.

 

[AlterEgo]

Unfortunately the reality is you lost your ticket. And, regardless, from what you say the ticket wasn't valid there anyway.

You have exhausted all of your appeals, and the penalty fare must now be paid.

 

[Danksy]

I will get the responses that i sent to them from the pc later as i dont have them drafted on my phone

 

[John R]

As @AlterEgo puts very succinctly, you've exhausted your options here, and need to pay.

I note that you referred to your disability as a reason why your appeal should be accepted, but the Panel believed that your travelling companion (referred to as a carer, rather than your partner) should take responsibility for looking after the tickets for the two of you if your disability makes it likely that you will lose them. I don't think that's an unreasonable position for them to take, although others might disagree.

 

[WesternLancer]

As @AlterEgo puts very succinctly, you've exhausted your options here, and need to pay.

I note that you referred to your disability as a reason why your appeal should be accepted, but the Panel believed that your travelling companion (referred to as a carer, rather than your partner) should take responsibility for looking after the tickets for the two of you if your disability makes it likely that you will lose them. I don't think that's an unreasonable position for them to take, although others might disagree.

Is this part of the reason why that railcard permits discounts for an accompanying person perhaps.

 

[AlterEgo]

Is this part of the reason why that railcard permits discounts for an accompanying person perhaps.

It is part of the "political" reason, but anyone can accompany you. They don't have to be your carer and most Disabled Railcard holders will be able to travel independently.

 

[Danksy]

As @AlterEgo puts very succinctly, you've exhausted your options here, and need to pay.

I note that you referred to your disability as a reason why your appeal should be accepted, but the Panel believed that your travelling companion (referred to as a carer, rather than your partner) should take responsibility for looking after the tickets for the two of you if your disability makes it likely that you will lose them. I don't think that's an unreasonable position for them to take, although others might disagree.

If only we was given time to find them the inspector was pushy to say the least.

Its hard to believe we live in a world that you can get pulled over for no car insurance and the police can give x days to produce the document at a station without penalty but you cant provide a ticket an hour later for a train!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Sep 2025 ==

Its all abit flawed really there's alot of people use digital railcards and tickets so i guess if your battery died it would be the same outcome i was advised there was a note on the penalty fare guidelines about certain circumstances and not being liable to pay the fine its totally over the top because i miss laid a ticket by any chance do these officers have cash incentives for penalty fares issued?

 

[AlterEgo]

If only we was given time to find them the inspector was pushy to say the least.

Its hard to believe we live in a world that you can get pulled over for no car insurance and the police can give x days to produce the document at a station without penalty but you cant provide a ticket an hour later for a train!

A better analogy is that paper tickets are like banknotes. Unlike your car insurance, which is tied to you and your vehicle, a paper ticket can be used by anybody. That's why presenting a ticket later doesn't count for anything - someone else could have used it to actually travel, or you could just submit a friend's ticket later.

In any case, if you get pulled over for no insurance and cannot provide proof there and then your car gets impounded and you get made to get out and walk. They don't let you off that bit.

 

[30907]

by any chance do these officers have cash incentives for penalty fares issued?

AFAIK no. But in any case previous replies have explained that the PF was a correct response to your situation.

 

[Danksy]

A better analogy is that paper tickets are like banknotes. Unlike your car insurance, which is tied to you and your vehicle, a paper ticket can be used by anybody. That's why presenting a ticket later doesn't count for anything - someone else could have used it to actually travel, or you could just submit a friend's ticket later.

In any case, if you get pulled over for no insurance and cannot provide proof there and then your car gets impounded and you get made to get out and walk. They don't let you off that bit.

Fair point with the bank notes and explanation on tickets however they was tied to my bank card and have a printed time of 7.30am before the inspection so there's no possibility of me printing them

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Sep 2025 ==

AFAIK no. But in any case previous replies have explained that the PF was a correct response to your situation.

From advice i have been given elsewhere i wasn't given reasonable time and no reasonable adjustments was made ie giving me time to calm down to find my tickets and the officer talked me into the "audit" does anyone here actually know the laws around the equality act because me mentioning the disability railcard done nothing for him he didn't even investigate if it would have been relivant to me miss placing the ticket one of top symptoms for adhd is miss placing items Northern trains accessibility policy makes out they are supporting and training staff about disabilities thats total **** maybe its because i wasn't of a physical disability so im assumed to be fully functioning.

Need i remind people that not all disabilities are physical and not every disability effects the same person in the same way to another its a nice world we live in that people make assumptions.

 

[furlong]

You should contact Transport Focus to see if they are willing to take up your case. (Contact details are in the 3rd response.) What you show here does not appear to be in the spirit of the Penalty Fares Appeals process and, if nothing else, it will help Transport Focus to campaign to get the system fixed (during the implementation of a recent ORR report). Had you discovered this forum earlier, I'd have suggested you reference one of the original debates about Penalty Fares in parliament where it was stated that someone losing a ticket was entitled to appeal trying to prove that they had paid. It sounds to me as though the inspector when speaking to you might have been more correct than the appeals panel!

 

[AlterEgo]

Fair point with the bank notes and explanation on tickets however they was tied to my bank card and have a printed time of 7.30am before the inspection so there's no possibility of me printing them

They aren't tied to your bank card. It's just that you bought them, it doesn't prove nobody else used it for travel. Like if you buy a concert ticket which isn't in anyone's name or linked to ID, and give it to me, I'm the one who gets to go watch the concert - they're completely transferable.

Need i remind people that not all disabilities are physical and not every disability effects the same person in the same way to another its a nice world we live in that people make assumptions.

I hold a Disabled Railcard. I think him giving you a few minutes (you mention ten?) to find the ticket was entirely reasonable; he did not have to do this, nor wait an unlimited time for you. The adjustments have to be reasonable and will not be bespoke to everyone and every disability. If someone takes, say, 20 minutes to calm down and produce their ticket, it is not reasonable to tie up a member of staff who has their own workload to manage. Nobody has made any assumptions as far as I can tell; they are working off the information you have provided.

But as it is, I am afraid you legally have to pay the penalty fare because none of your appeals have been successful; if you don't pay it promptly it will double, and they may eventually take court action to recover the sum. Had you come here at the outset, we could have helped you with your appeals to hopefully get a more favourable outcome or even a technical line of defence, but regrettably, you have already exhausted all of them. You have no further recourse within the appeals system, other than, as the letter explains, to contact Transport Focus. That's really about it I'm afraid.

 

[Danksy]

They aren't tied to your bank card. It's just that you bought them, it doesn't prove nobody else used it for travel. Like if you buy a concert ticket which isn't in anyone's name or linked to ID, and give it to me, I'm the one who gets to go watch the concert - they're completely transferable.


I hold a Disabled Railcard. I think him giving you a few minutes (you mention ten?) to find the ticket was entirely reasonable; he did not have to do this, nor wait an unlimited time for you. The adjustments have to be reasonable and will not be bespoke to everyone and every disability. If someone takes, say, 20 minutes to calm down and produce their ticket, it is not reasonable to tie up a member of staff who has their own workload to manage. Nobody has made any assumptions as far as I can tell; they are working off the information you have provided.

But as it is, I am afraid you legally have to pay the penalty fare because none of your appeals have been successful; if you don't pay it promptly it will double, and they may eventually take court action to recover the sum. Had you come here at the outset, we could have helped you with your appeals to hopefully get a more favourable outcome or even a technical line of defence, but regrettably, you have already exhausted all of them. You have no further recourse within the appeals system, other than, as the letter explains, to contact Transport Focus. That's really about it I'm afraid.

The tickets have a date time and transaction number my guessing is Northern would be able to access the purchases and see that it was purchased at Manchester Airport by myself at that time its hardly been used when i sent it to them within an hour of the penalty fare being issued!

Unfortunately i didn't search up beforehand and thought citizens advice would be suitable that with the advice i was given by staff on the appeal i thought it would be ok.

I will again clarify the "10 minutes" i worked this out from previous departures the train got in so let's start the clock at 10 minutes i didn't have to find my ticket i wasn't even aware i lost it i got off said train needed the bathroom got completely lost around Preston it has 6 8 10 platforms?... Again clock still ticking i walk onto another platform where boom he appears out of nowhere jargon about the audit then asks for the ticket so how much of that "10 minutes" i was given is very disputable maybe of they checked said cctv like he said they would see i was given what felt like a few seconds!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Sep 2025 ==

To be exact the train arrived in Preston at 9:00 slightly late the fare was issued at 9:11 including listening to his opening speech Preston is a big station to what i remember alot to do in 10/11 minutes

 

[AlterEgo]

The tickets have a date time and transaction number my guessing is Northern would be able to access the purchases and see that it was purchased at Manchester Airport by myself at that time its hardly been used when i sent it to them within an hour of the penalty fare being issued!

But the point is, it's not relevant to the matter at hand. I'm explaining to you why the appeal hasn't been allowed. If you buy a paper ticket you need to have it available to show. If you don't, the train company doesn't know if it was given to someone else on the train to use. Look at it this way. Me and my mum go out for a train ride from Milton Keynes to London. I hold a ticket, and she doesn't. She gets penalty fared. She submits my ticket and say "Oh I found it - well this one was bought with my bank card just before I stepped on the train, clearly this is my ticket" - the very nature of paper tickets mean they are extremely flexible, but they do work like banknotes. They aren't tied to anyone. It's not relevant if you got a £20 note out of an ATM and then can't find it when you're trying to pay for something - the value is realised only upon its production by you to pay for something. It's why I don't use paper tickets if I can avoid it, but e-tickets instead - but that is a personal choice.

Unfortunately i didn't search up beforehand and thought citizens advice would be suitable that with the advice i was given by staff on the appeal i thought it would be ok.

Unfortunately Citizens Advice have no idea about the penalty fares regulations which are set out in law and often require specific knowledge to construct a technical appeal, which it is likely you would need to do given you had no other grounds under the regulations for appeal. Even then there is no guarantee of success; it would need the penalty fare to be issued unlawfully, for example if it was completed with the wrong information.

I appreciate none of this is what you want to hear but it is what has happened to you and I can't stress enough the importance of paying it to avoid worse consequences. You're out of appeals. In future, a bit of life advice if I may - when someone says they need to penalise you there and then in any situation "but don't worry you'll get it overturned on appeal"...they aren't doing you a favour but instead trying to defuse any potential situation. Why would anyone issue a penalty fare if they knew it would be overturned on appeal (because it was unlawful!)? What would the point of that be? Do the police charge people and say "don't worry the court won't convict you"?

 

[Danksy]

But the point is, it's not relevant to the matter at hand. I'm explaining to you why the appeal hasn't been allowed. If you buy a paper ticket you need to have it available to show. If you don't, the train company doesn't know if it was given to someone else on the train to use. Look at it this way. Me and my mum go out for a train ride from Milton Keynes to London. I hold a ticket, and she doesn't. She gets penalty fared. She submits my ticket and say "Oh I found it - well this one was bought with my bank card just before I stepped on the train, clearly this is my ticket" - the very nature of paper tickets mean they are extremely flexible, but they do work like banknotes. They aren't tied to anyone. It's not relevant if you got a £20 note out of an ATM and then can't find it when you're trying to pay for something - the value is realised only upon its production by you to pay for something. It's why I don't use paper tickets if I can avoid it, but e-tickets instead - but that is a personal choice.


Unfortunately Citizens Advice have no idea about the penalty fares regulations which are set out in law and often require specific knowledge to construct a technical appeal, which it is likely you would need to do given you had no other grounds under the regulations for appeal. Even then there is no guarantee of success; it would need the penalty fare to be issued unlawfully, for example if it was completed with the wrong information.

I appreciate none of this is what you want to hear but it is what has happened to you and I can't stress enough the importance of paying it to avoid worse consequences. You're out of appeals. In future, a bit of life advice if I may - when someone says they need to penalise you there and then in any situation "but don't worry you'll get it overturned on appeal"...they aren't doing you a favour but instead trying to defuse any potential situation. Why would anyone issue a penalty fare if they knew it would be overturned on appeal (because it was unlawful!)? What would the point of that be? Do the police charge people and say "don't worry the court won't convict you"?

I think i get the point treat it like cash or the ticket revenue protection mob get you my apologies taken me a while to get it due to my learning disability

 

[Tozinator]

I think i get the point treat it like cash or the ticket revenue protection mob get you my apologies taken me a while to get it due to my learning disability

I wouldn't even call them a mob. They are there to ensure that all passengers pay the correct fare which funds the service and improvements for all passengers.

There are times when, yes, they can be jobsworths - the same with every single person in the world. However, at the end of the day their job is to ensure that passengers are paying and not attempting to get discounted or free travel when everyone else has paid.

I'd personally take this as a teaching moment to ensure that you either have your tickets somewhere safe (such as the back of a phone case, a dedicated ticket wallet: Network Rail ticket offices should have blue ticket wallets you can ask for, etc) or have the person you're travelling with keep the tickets to prevent further incidents.

i was advised by the staff at the ticket gate to get the Blackpool North train and change at preston

I know this has been mentioned prior, however I just wanted to add some further information. Rail staff often do not have the full knowledge on routes across the network, given the number of different routes, ticket combinations, services, etc and as such this seems to be one of those mistakes as a result of either not knowing the route specifics or mixing up stations (e.g. Warrington Bank Quay). If your ticket says that it is valid to Warrington Central, ALWAYS change at Manchester Oxford Road or Piccadilly and then get either A) The xx:47 Northern Rail service to Liverpool Lime Street via Warrington Central, this arrives at Warrington Central at around 16 minutes past the hour B) East Midlands Railways Norwich to Liverpool Lime Street service calling at Piccadilly at xx:35 and Oxford Road at xx:39 before arriving into Warrington Central for xx:58 (I find that it usually has around 3-5 minutes delay and arrives around xx:03 to xx:05) C) TransPennine Express' Cleethorpes to Liverpool Lime Street service calling at Piccadilly at xx:05 and Oxford Road at xx:09 before arriving into Warrington Central for 31 minutes past the hour. There is also an additional peak time service from Oxford Road terminating at Warrington Central, however I won't go into full details of this.

I'm not fully aware of your ticket nor the restrictions on it. If your ticket was valid to Warrington Central/Bank Quay on the ticket, Preston should have been a permitted route with a change for the Avanti West Coast services calling at Bank Quay from Preston, however I can not be 100% sure, so please do not quote me on it.

In this situation, you've exhausted your 3 appeals and from reading the responses, I doubt they are going to change the outcome even if Transport Focus do take on your appeal. I'd take this as one of those situations you can't change and pay the reduced penalty before it increases.

If you really wanted to, you may be able to complain to TransPennine Express regarding the information given. However this would most likely not result in any action as you do not have proof of the interaction and also it would be (in my opinion) unreasonable towards the employee who seems to have just made a mistake.

 

[Danksy]

I wouldn't even call them a mob. They are there to ensure that all passengers pay the correct fare which funds the service and improvements for all passengers.

There are times when, yes, they can be jobsworths - the same with every single person in the world. However, at the end of the day their job is to ensure that passengers are paying and not attempting to get discounted or free travel when everyone else has paid.

I'd personally take this as a teaching moment to ensure that you either have your tickets somewhere safe (such as the back of a phone case, a dedicated ticket wallet: Network Rail ticket offices should have blue ticket wallets you can ask for, etc) or have the person you're travelling with keep the tickets to prevent further incidents.



I know this has been mentioned prior, however I just wanted to add some further information. Rail staff often do not have the full knowledge on routes across the network, given the number of different routes, ticket combinations, services, etc and as such this seems to be one of those mistakes as a result of either not knowing the route specifics or mixing up stations (e.g. Warrington Bank Quay). If your ticket says that it is valid to Warrington Central, ALWAYS change at Manchester Oxford Road or Piccadilly and then get either A) The xx:47 Northern Rail service to Liverpool Lime Street via Warrington Central, this arrives at Warrington Central at around 16 minutes past the hour B) East Midlands Railways Norwich to Liverpool Lime Street service calling at Piccadilly at xx:35 and Oxford Road at xx:39 before arriving into Warrington Central for xx:58 (I find that it usually has around 3-5 minutes delay and arrives around xx:03 to xx:05) C) TransPennine Express' Cleethorpes to Liverpool Lime Street service calling at Piccadilly at xx:05 and Oxford Road at xx:09 before arriving into Warrington Central for 31 minutes past the hour. There is also an additional peak time service from Oxford Road terminating at Warrington Central, however I won't go into full details of this.

I'm not fully aware of your ticket nor the restrictions on it. If your ticket was valid to Warrington Central/Bank Quay on the ticket, Preston should have been a permitted route with a change for the Avanti West Coast services calling at Bank Quay from Preston, however I can not be 100% sure, so please do not quote me on it.

In this situation, you've exhausted your 3 appeals and from reading the responses, I doubt they are going to change the outcome even if Transport Focus do take on your appeal. I'd take this as one of those situations you can't change and pay the reduced penalty before it increases.

If you really wanted to, you may be able to complain to TransPennine Express regarding the information given. However this would most likely not result in any action as you do not have proof of the interaction and also it would be (in my opinion) unreasonable towards the employee who seems to have just made a mistake.

Ultimately i see 3 people dressed in black approaching me as a mob im unfortunate of avoiding confrontation and just swiftly gave in to the officer the jargon about the cctv and bank details and appeal was clearly fabricated to lure me in and i fell for it as i felt it was easier at the time

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Sep 2025 ==

As regards to my partner or carer having to look after the tickets is just obscene im an independent person and did what i thought at the time was the right thing in all its just passing the blame around i explained to them that i felt guilty about me misplacing them causing my partner to get the penalty fare there response was its her responsibility.

The grounds on which an appeal under this regulation may be made are that—

(a)the penalty fare was not charged in accordance with the requirements of these Regulations;

(b)the appellant is not the person liable for the payment of the penalty fare;

(c)the appellant owns a season ticket valid for the journey in question but was not in possession of the season ticket at the time the penalty fare was charged; or

(d)there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, the appellant should not be liable to pay the penalty fare.

As per regulations but yet option d didn't seem considered as an appeal
Dare your phone die or you lose it with the ticket lets not hope your paper ticket gets wet while you are waiting for your delayed northern service and they can't scan the barcode....

The whole regulation is a farce

 

[Statto]

A Manchester Airport - Warrington ticket is not valid via Preston, you must change at Manchester Piccadilly or Manchester Oxford Road, then head to Warrington on the direct service from there.

 

[WesternLancer]

Ultimately i see 3 people dressed in black approaching me as a mob im unfortunate of avoiding confrontation and just swiftly gave in to the officer the jargon about the cctv and bank details and appeal was clearly fabricated to lure me in and i fell for it as i felt it was easier at the time

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Sep 2025 ==

As regards to my partner or carer having to look after the tickets is just obscene im an independent person and did what i thought at the time was the right thing in all its just passing the blame around i explained to them that i felt guilty about me misplacing them causing my partner to get the penalty fare there response was its her responsibility.

The grounds on which an appeal under this regulation may be made are that—

(a)the penalty fare was not charged in accordance with the requirements of these Regulations;

(b)the appellant is not the person liable for the payment of the penalty fare;

(c)the appellant owns a season ticket valid for the journey in question but was not in possession of the season ticket at the time the penalty fare was charged; or

(d)there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, the appellant should not be liable to pay the penalty fare.

As per regulations but yet option d didn't seem considered as an appeal
Dare your phone die or you lose it with the ticket lets not hope your paper ticket gets wet while you are waiting for your delayed northern service and they can't scan the barcode....

The whole regulation is a farce

I think you should do two things now:

1) pay the Penalty fare to stop the costs to you increasing. This is important.

2) write to Transport Focus and ask them if they will pursue your case for you.

as part of (2) send a copy of what you send to Transport Focus to your MP and ask your MP if they will 'support your case in any way they feel they may be able to do'

It's bad luck you didn't know about this forum earlier on, as going to the CAB was a perfectly good idea but it's unlikely the CAB staff or volunteers would have had the level of specialist Penalty Fare and railway ticketing expertise to help and advise you that you will find on this forum, but of course that is water under the bridge now.

 

[MotCO]

As regards to my partner or carer having to look after the tickets is just obscene im an independent person and did what i thought at the time was the right thing in all its just passing the blame around i explained to them that i felt guilty about me misplacing them causing my partner to get the penalty fare there response was its her responsibility.

Everyone wants to be independent, but sometimes pragmatism is called for. I think there are two options:

1. Identify somewhere where you always put your tickets, and stick to it. You probably have a favourite place where you keep your keys or phone; just add a place for your tickets; or
2. Compromise and let your friend be responsible for the tickets.

 

[Haywain]

Dare your phone die or you lose it with the ticket lets not hope your paper ticket gets wet while you are waiting for your delayed northern service and they can't scan the barcode

If you hold a ticket on a phone and you are unable to show it when requested, you will be in exactly the same situation of being liable to a Penalty Fare. It's very simple, you must be able to produce your ticket and, if relevant, railcard when requested to do so.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The whole regulation is a farce

It's not really. It is your obligation to have your ticket with you and present it when requested. You didn't.

Your partner also gets a 33% discount when travelling with you, and in exchange for that discount they are expected to help you navigate the railway system.

It's bad luck you didn't know about this forum earlier on, as going to the CAB was a perfectly good idea but it's unlikely the CAB staff or volunteers would have had the level of specialist Penalty Fare and railway ticketing expertise to help and advise you that you will find on this forum, but of course that is water under the bridge now.

In this case it looks as though the CAB adviser will have advised the OP to make the arguments that they did. The only real ground for appeal was (d), and the independent panel have explained why they don't think (d) applied in this particular situation.

I also don't think their comments about the partner were particularly unreasonable in this context. A companion travelling with the holder of a Disabled Person's Railcard also gets a 33% discount precisely because they are there to assist the Railcard holder in navigating the railway system. So I don't think the independent panel are unreasonable in stating that the partner should have been looking after the tickets: that is primarily why they also get a discount.

 

[Danksy]

A Manchester Airport - Warrington ticket is not valid via Preston, you must change at Manchester Piccadilly or Manchester Oxford Road, then head to Warrington on the direct service from there.

My deepest apologies for listening to the advice of railway staff i have since learned that stations are run by different companies neither of us knew the routes and its early in the morning after a 3 hour flight ill be sure to study the rail network before i decide to get on a train again

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Sep 2025 ==

I think you should do two things now:

1) pay the Penalty fare to stop the costs to you increasing. This is important.

2) write to Transport Focus and ask them if they will pursue your case for you.

as part of (2) send a copy of what you send to Transport Focus to your MP and ask your MP if they will 'support your case in any way they feel they may be able to do'

It's bad luck you didn't know about this forum earlier on, as going to the CAB was a perfectly good idea but it's unlikely the CAB staff or volunteers would have had the level of specialist Penalty Fare and railway ticketing expertise to help and advise you that you will find on this forum, but of course that is water under the bridge now.

Transport focus have taken on the case under the grounds of part D ill follow up the mp

 

[Haywain]

My deepest apologies for listening to the advice of railway staff i have since learned that stations are run by different companies neither of us knew the routes and its early in the morning after a 3 hour flight ill be sure to study the rail network before i decide to get on a train again

Sarcasm really doesn't help. The validity of the ticket via Preston is neither here nor there as you were unable to produce it at the time you needed to.

 

[Danksy]

Everyone wants to be independent, but sometimes pragmatism is called for. I think there are two options:

1. Identify somewhere where you always put your tickets, and stick to it. You probably have a favourite place where you keep your keys or phone; just add a place for your tickets; or
2. Compromise and let your friend be responsible for the tickets.

Unfortunately adhd is part of being unorganised and forgetful especially when you are unmedicated due to shortages on the nhs by any chance do you know anyone that lives with adhd ask them your brains like a sieve