Huddersfield diversions indicating untapped demand for services

[TUC]

I commented several months ago on noticing that a late running peak time Sowerby Bridge-Leeds service had been changed to running non-stop between the two locations and, notwithstanding the time of day, had completed the journey in 23 minutes rather than the 40 minutes plus for the usual service.

Currently, due to the Huddersfield disruption, a number of TPE services are stopping at Sowerby Bridge. It was striking this morning how many passengers have cottoned on these offering quicker journeys than Northern ones, and let the 0732 Northern service leave unboarded, preferring to wait for the 0738 TPE service which they have realised arrives in Leeds earlier.

It does again indicate a demand for fast Calder Valley-Leeds services.

 

[The Planner]

I commented several months ago on noticing that a late running peak time Sowerby Bridge-Leeds service had been changed to running non-stop between the two locations and, notwithstanding the time of day, had completed the journey in 23 minutes rather than the 40 minutes plus for the usual service.

Currently, due to the Huddersfield disruption, a number of TPE services are stopping at Sowerby Bridge. It was striking this morning how many passengers have cottoned on these offering quicker journeys than Northern ones, and let the 0732 Northern service leave unboarded, preferring to wait for the 0738 TPE service which they have realised arrives in Leeds earlier.

It does again indicate a demand for fast Calder Valley-Leeds services.

Give any station a faster service to a big location and people will gravitate to it, ignoring the slower one. The demand will apply to a myriad of stations.

 

[childwallblues]

Maybe once Leeds to Huddersfield is electrified and there are any spare diesel units may allow services via the Calder Valley extra paths.

 

[D6130]

Maybe once Leeds to Huddersfield is electrified and there are any spare diesel units may allow services via the Calder Valley extra paths.

Yes, but to run fast between the Calder Valley and Leeds you need to find extra paths on the very busy - and soon to be even busier - Trans Pennine main line between Heaton Lodge Junction and Leeds.

 

[northernchris]

There's definitely some benefits to the temporary timetables, such as the direct link between Dewsbury, Halifax and Bradford or having 2 trains per hour between Brighouse and Bradford. TPE seem to be more reliable too!

 

[TUC]

Yes, but to run fast between the Calder Valley and Leeds you need to find extra paths on the very busy - and soon to be even busier - Trans Pennine main line between Heaton Lodge Junction and Leeds.

According to Rail magazine, the work will remove all conflicts between trains on the Calder Valley route and those on the Huddersfield-Dewsbury-Leeds route. Does that resolve the above?

 

[30907]

According to Rail magazine, the work will remove all conflicts between trains on the Calder Valley route and those on the Huddersfield-Dewsbury-Leeds route. Does that resolve the above?

Not really, as all the trains will be running via Dewsbury into Leeds.
It's the Calder Valley freights (which continue East via Wakefield) that will be kept clear of TPE etc.

 

[Spartacus]

I don't think they're making that choice base on speed if they're letting the Northern go in favour of the TPE, the TPE only gets to Leeds 2 minutes before the Northern, they'll be getting it because it's a 6 car 185 instead of a 3 car 195. I wonder if the result would be the same if the TPE was only a 3 car and the Northern a 4 car, though I reckon a lot will have cottoned on to the fact a lot of people from Manchester will be getting off the TPE at Brighouse, so if it was standing from Sowerby they'd have a very good chance of getting a seat from Brighouse.

The congestion point for running from Brighouse towards Dewsbury has never really been the section though Mirfield, it's the section from Ravensthorpe to Leeds, not least through Morley tunnel, that's the limiting factor, as it always has been.

That's not to say that maybe something couldn't be got in eventually, perhaps with bi-modes, maybe a semi-fast version of Wigan - Leeds, perhaps going over Copy Pit to Blackburn, Preston or Blackpool instead of Manchester & Wigan, but that's something for another forum...

 

[KNN]

Give any station a faster service to a big location and people will gravitate to it, ignoring the slower one. The demand will apply to a myriad of stations.

Yep, this. Give people a better service at a competitive price and the railway is a really popular way to travel, and travelling becomes more appealing.

 

[D1537]

There's definitely some benefits to the temporary timetables, such as the direct link between Dewsbury, Halifax and Bradford or having 2 trains per hour between Brighouse and Bradford. TPE seem to be more reliable too!

Though the timekeeping does seem to be slipping by the time the services get past York during the day, especially around the late afternoon and evening. Around 10 northbound TPE services were 15 late or more today and one was cancelled. Yesterday wasn't so bad, but Tuesday was worse. The Redcars especially seem to be persistently 5-15 late if not worse.

 

[driverd]

Personally I feel there is a case for a Calder Valley fast service, perhaps running the York - Blackpool from Leeds calling Dewsbury/Brighouse/Hebden instead of trundling around Bradford, with an extension of the current York-Leeds stopper into a Hebden/Todmorden terminator (heck, even run it to Preston if the demand is there) in order to maintain the Calder Valley - York link.

I appreciate this does little for your Sowerby Bridge-Leeds fast link, but on the plus side you'd likely get an extra train per hour with the extended York stopper.

Whilst were on the subject of sorting out the Calder Valley, I'd also like to see a better solution to the Huddersfield-Bradford service, ideally extending the Hull-Halifax to Huddersfield (and binning the shuttle). Failing that, interworking the Penistone services and the Bradford shuttle would cater to a lot of markets and really grow connectivity, especially between Bradford and South Yorkshire/the East Midlands.

 

[The Planner]

Yep, this. Give people a better service at a competitive price and the railway is a really popular way to travel, and travelling becomes more appealing.

Yes, but everyone cannot have a fast service. That doesn't work.

 

[xotGD]

Presumably journey planners are instructing passengers to catch the TPE service, since it arrives into Leeds first?

 

[TUC]

I don't think they're making that choice base on speed if they're letting the Northern go in favour of the TPE, the TPE only gets to Leeds 2 minutes before the Northern,

It's a bigger time saving than that. The TPE services are around 30-33 minutes as opposed to 41-43 minutes for Northern.

 

[xotGD]

It's a bigger time saving than that. The TPE services are around 30-33 minutes as opposed to 41-43 minutes for Northern.

But if you have festered on the platform for 6 minutes waiting for the later train, that's half the saving gone.

Yes, some people will be able to arrive at the station 6 minutes later, but others will be constrained by bus/lift/drop-off times.

 

[TUC]

But if you have festered on the platform for 6 minutes waiting for the later train, that's half the saving gone.

Yes, some people will be able to arrive at the station 6 minutes later, but others will be constrained by bus/lift/drop-off times.

But at least the many people driving to the station can benefit.

 

[Whisky Papa]

I recall a similar enthusiasm emerged during a week-long Huddersfield block in the early 2010s - October half-term I think it was. To compensate for some thinning of Northern's services, a TPE called at Hebden Bridge in the morning peak, and if I recall correctly ran non-stop to Leeds, much to the delight of some regular commuters.

Personally I feel there is a case for a Calder Valley fast service, perhaps running the York - Blackpool from Leeds calling Dewsbury/Brighouse/Hebden instead of trundling around Bradford, with an extension of the current York-Leeds stopper into a Hebden/Todmorden terminator (heck, even run it to Preston if the demand is there) in order to maintain the Calder Valley - York link.

I appreciate this does little for your Sowerby Bridge-Leeds fast link, but on the plus side you'd likely get an extra train per hour with the extended York stopper.

From later experience working at Bradford Interchange, the Blackpool services did rather more than trundle round Bradford. As well as the obvious day-trip and short-break travel and people wanting to connect northbound at Preston, there was a significant level of travel between the East Lancashire towns and Bradford for educational and social travel, which I assume still survives.

Whilst were on the subject of sorting out the Calder Valley, I'd also like to see a better solution to the Huddersfield-Bradford service, ideally extending the Hull-Halifax to Huddersfield (and binning the shuttle). Failing that, interworking the Penistone services and the Bradford shuttle would cater to a lot of markets and really grow connectivity, especially between Bradford and South Yorkshire/the East Midlands.

Extending Hull - Halifax to Huddersfield might be a good option, but even with the improved layout I suspect the Penistone line service is likely to be confined to its bay forever. It would be better if the train from Bradford / Halifax had decent connections with it, which I seem to remember being an issue at one time.

 

[30907]

It does again indicate a demand for fast Calder Valley-Leeds services.

It indicates an understandable preference for such a service.

Evidence of untapped demand would be shown by increased passenger numbers, though of course a month a short time to detect a trend.

 

[stevieinselby]

I commented several months ago on noticing that a late running peak time Sowerby Bridge-Leeds service had been changed to running non-stop between the two locations and, notwithstanding the time of day, had completed the journey in 23 minutes rather than the 40 minutes plus for the usual service.

Currently, due to the Huddersfield disruption, a number of TPE services are stopping at Sowerby Bridge. It was striking this morning how many passengers have cottoned on these offering quicker journeys than Northern ones, and let the 0732 Northern service leave unboarded, preferring to wait for the 0738 TPE service which they have realised arrives in Leeds earlier.

It does again indicate a demand for fast Calder Valley-Leeds services.

First, does it show more people travelling, or just people who were already travelling choosing the faster trains? If the latter then there is no evidence of untapped demand.

Second, if there is untapped demand that can be unlocked by faster services, and those faster services are achieved by running via Brighouse and Dewsbury rather than via Halifax and Bradford, it raises more questions than it answers. By far the biggest traffic generators on the route before you get to Rochdale are Bradford and Halifax. If your plan is to grow the 1m passengers from Sowerby, Mytholmroyd, Hebden Bridge and Todmorden at the expense of services to the 2.5m passengers from stations between Bramley and Halifax then it feels like your priorities are backwards.

 

[driverd]

First, does it show more people travelling, or just people who were already travelling choosing the faster trains? If the latter then there is no evidence of untapped demand.

Second, if there is untapped demand that can be unlocked by faster services, and those faster services are achieved by running via Brighouse and Dewsbury rather than via Halifax and Bradford, it raises more questions than it answers. By far the biggest traffic generators on the route before you get to Rochdale are Bradford and Halifax. If your plan is to grow the 1m passengers from Sowerby, Mytholmroyd, Hebden Bridge and Todmorden at the expense of services to the 2.5m passengers from stations between Bramley and Halifax then it feels like your priorities are backwards.

I think the two markets can co-exist. As I highlighted above, by inserting an additional train between, for arguements sake, Preston and York via Bradford (as an extension of the York-Leeds stopper) and diverting the existing Blackpool service via Brighouse to speed it up, you can continue to offer the same service level to the Bradford/Halifax area, whilst both speeding up the busiest trans-pennine flow on the route and offering a better, faster service to the outer WY stations. I would argue there is untapped demand across the Calder Valley as the trains are busy as they are, and road options to Leeds are pretty dismal. Decent journey time improvements can be achieved which would bode well for improving rails competitive advantage (especially if done whilst preserving a regular service frequency, albeit a slower train via Bradford should you miss the fast one).

I would suspect there would be capacity on the Dewsbury route for an additional fast train, mainly as these eat up a lot less capacity than a stopper. Happy to be proven wrong on that one though as I'm unsure what timetable ambitions look like post TRU, though I would strongly suspect a 3 min headway being the likely outcome, leaving capacity for 15tph (allowing for a performance buffer and notwithstanding the stopping services somewhat limiting that potential).

 

[TUC]

It indicates an understandable preference for such a service.

Evidence of untapped demand would be shown by increased passenger numbers, though of course a month a short time to detect a trend.

It needs the normal kind of commercial judgment and risk that most successful business would take as a part of day to day life.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

As I understand it there's a lot of regular use between Bradford and Burnley/Blackburn on the Copy Pit Blackpool service, so you wouldn't want to divert that service to run via Dewsbury instead. I could see a case for a second (technically third, with the Tod curve train) service up the Copy Pit line, and maybe that could run via Dewsbury.
Though it wouldn't be possible during the interim period there may also be a case for a Huddersfield to Calder Valley service as far as Rochdale and using the former Oldham bay, but I'm not sure how strong a case that would be. There's the 900/901 bus between Huddersfield and Hebden Bridge, but I'm not sure there's ever been a regular Huddersfield to Rochdale bus. There certainly hasn't been one in the last 40 years. If timed appropriately with suitable connections, that service could take some smaller stops (Mytholmroyd, Walsden, Smithy Bridge) from the Leeds to Manchester trains.

 

[Topological]

This additional "fast" train seems to be taking on additional roles very quickly.

If the aim is to get people from the towns and villages along the Calder Valley into Leeds quicker then the logic would be a stopping service that was then only calling at Dewsbury between Brighouse and Leeds. The Western terminus for such a train is a bit more contentious, but is possibly Rochdale because of the bay. Burnley works from a market perspective, but there is no natural reversal point. Rose Grove would allow connections into the Colne trains, that may be easier to fit a reversal option to?

If the aim is faster services from Blackpool then that is a different case.

I suspect that the greater benefit is obtained by connecting parts of Yorkshire with their largest city.

 

[Bertie the bus]

But at least the many people driving to the station can benefit.

People being able to leave home 3 or 4 minutes later doesn't justify a fast non-stop service and your observation that people let the stopper go to catch the fast service definitely doesn't show there is demand for such a service if all it does it take passengers off the existing one.

 

[driverd]

This additional "fast" train seems to be taking on additional roles very quickly.

If the aim is to get people from the towns and villages along the Calder Valley into Leeds quicker then the logic would be a stopping service that was then only calling at Dewsbury between Brighouse and Leeds. The Western terminus for such a train is a bit more contentious, but is possibly Rochdale because of the bay. Burnley works from a market perspective, but there is no natural reversal point. Rose Grove would allow connections into the Colne trains, that may be easier to fit a reversal option to?

If the aim is faster services from Blackpool then that is a different case.

I suspect that the greater benefit is obtained by connecting parts of Yorkshire with their largest city.

To my mind its a 2 birds with one stone situation. An additional fast train has to go somewhere, and if you're making a faster than the current fastest train, it makes sense to speed up the 'express' on the route. Blackpool, especially in the summer months, is by a country mile the busiest Calder Valley service and is usually pretty full by Leeds. Aside from the time benefits, running that service via Dewsbury would thin out the Calder Valley commuter traffic on that service, allowing additional capacity for the outer stations and an improved journey time to all.

The secondary service (as I propose it) would be Preston-York (either in the existing path or as an extension to the Leeds-York stopper), thus maintaining the Calder Valley - York flows (as desired by WYCA), and also bringing almost all of the benefits offered by the existing Blackpool service. Heck, if there really is the demand there for Bradford/Halifax to Blackpool, why not make it a second Blackpool train (though, given how frequent Preston-Blackpool is, I'd be dubious just how strong that case is).

 

[Halifaxlad]

Personally I feel there is a case for a Calder Valley fast service, perhaps running the York - Blackpool from Leeds calling Dewsbury/Brighouse/Hebden instead of trundling around Bradford, with an extension of the current York-Leeds stopper into a Hebden/Todmorden terminator (heck, even run it to Preston if the demand is there) in order to maintain the Calder Valley - York link.

I appreciate this does little for your Sowerby Bridge-Leeds fast link, but on the plus side you'd likely get an extra train per hour with the extended York stopper.

Whilst were on the subject of sorting out the Calder Valley, I'd also like to see a better solution to the Huddersfield-Bradford service, ideally extending the Hull-Halifax to Huddersfield (and binning the shuttle). Failing that, interworking the Penistone services and the Bradford shuttle would cater to a lot of markets and really grow connectivity, especially between Bradford and South Yorkshire/the East Midlands.

I wouldn't bother terminating anything at Hebden or Todmorden, you might as well continue onto Rochdale and terminate there instead. No doubt such a suggestion will probably end up with someone insisting you continue it onto Manchester.

How about extending the York - Leeds stopper as a fast to Sowerby then continue it as a stopper to Rochdale ?

I do quite like the idea of extending the Hull to Halifax to Huddersfield.

 

[Topological]

I wouldn't bother terminating anything at Hebden or Todmorden, you might as well continue onto Rochdale and terminate there instead. No doubt such a suggestion will probably end up with someone insisting you continue it onto Manchester.

How about extending the York - Leeds stopper as a fast to Sowerby then continue it as a stopper to Rochdale ?

I do quite like the idea of extending the Hull to Halifax to Huddersfield.

That makes a lot of sense, though the York-Leeds stopper can go to EMU soon.

This discussion makes me think of Thameslink. This proposed Rochdale - Leeds is like Bedford to London, stops everywhere in the first part of its journey and then goes fast (as the Bedfords do from St Albans). The proposals are not to form the equivalent of the Midland Mainline to Nottingham.

In the North, there are not many trains which act as stoppers and then run fast to their respective centres. The closest is probably the way that some Northern services are fast from Stockport to Manchester, or Bolton to Salford Crescent.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

This additional "fast" train seems to be taking on additional roles very quickly.

If the aim is to get people from the towns and villages along the Calder Valley into Leeds quicker then the logic would be a stopping service that was then only calling at Dewsbury between Brighouse and Leeds. The Western terminus for such a train is a bit more contentious, but is possibly Rochdale because of the bay. Burnley works from a market perspective, but there is no natural reversal point. Rose Grove would allow connections into the Colne trains, that may be easier to fit a reversal option to?

If the aim is faster services from Blackpool then that is a different case.

I suspect that the greater benefit is obtained by connecting parts of Yorkshire with their largest city.

To be fair the title of this thread is fairly open-ended. Insofar as the OPs desire for an additional faster service from the upper Calder Valley which replicates the current services provided by diverted TPEs, there are a number of ways this could be done. If there's a path for an entirely new service then there's no need to mess about with the stopping patterns of the existing trains outside of any minor tweaks to make that additional path work. However if there isn't, then you have to be a bit more creative. One option could be to simply remove stops from the current 'via Brighouse' service from Wigan... but then you need something else to pick up those stops.
Personally I'd rather have a second train from Batley to Huddersfield, than the current split between Huddersfield and Wigan- but that can't happen for another few years while Huddersfield is being rebuilt. It's the stops between Brighouse and Leeds you'd be wanting to drop if your aim is a faster train for the upper Calder Valley. While Huddersfield is in the "interim" state perhaps the best way to achieve that would be with an additional all-stops "loop" service from Leeds to Halifax to Leeds? The Wigan train can then call only at Dewsbury and Brighouse (or indeed be first stop Brighouse). With good same-platform connections at Brighouse between the accelerated Wigan service and the Halifax looper, nobody would be hugely disadvantaged.

Edit: for clarity, the Halifax "looper" would run Leeds, Cottingley/White Rose, Morley, Batley, Dewsbury, Ravensthorpe, Mirfield, Brighouse, Halifax, Low Moor, Bradford Interchange, New Pudsey, Bramley, Leeds and v/v.

Leaving aside the current limitations at Huddersfield, I'd suggested previously that merging the orphaned Huddersfield to Bradford shuttle with the Hull to Halifax but this was shot down for reasons I can't recall (crewing issues possibly?). Though Huddersfield to Hull via Halifax and Bradford does bring back memories of the Wakefield to Selby via everywhere "Grand Tour" service! That's largely academic for the time being of course, as Huddersfield is unable to accommodate anything terminating from the Deighton direction anyway

 

[KNN]

Yes, but everyone cannot have a fast service. That doesn't work.

I wasn't really suggesting that they could. But I do think we shouldn't primarily use current usage levels to extrapolate potential demand, if you have a decent and fast service which doesn't cost a fortune the appetite exists everywhere, not just Huddersfield.

 

[Spartacus]

It's a bigger time saving than that. The TPE services are around 30-33 minutes as opposed to 41-43 minutes for Northern.

It's not it you're letting the first one go and waiting for the second.