First West Yorkshire & York discussion

[Deerfold]

Otley needs 2 Leeds-Otley routes. Via Bramhope, and also via Guiseley or populated areas would be left busless. And remember Leeds -Ilkley via Guiseley and Bradford Ilkley were busy bus routes now gone.

There's the 34 Leeds to Otley via Guiseley which is almost half hourly.

That used to be every 20 minutes (with every 20 minutes to Menston then Ilkley) (though they were 33 and 33A)

There also used to be the 733/4 and the 781.

Guiseley to Shipley had 7+ buses an hour when I used to go to school on those routes. The 655/755 was half hourly Leeds - Bradford (the remnant is the 27). Bradford to Ilkley 650/1 was 2+ bph, Bradford to Otley 652/3/4 2+ bph

 

[Andyh82]

This is funny

Anger at sale of Halifax bus garage

A Calderdale councillor has been expressing her anger that a Halifax bus garage and associated offices have been sold.

www.halifaxcourier.co.uk

A local councillor is “appalled” that Halifax bus depot is owned by FirstBus considering at one time it was owned by the Halifax corporation

“who the heck sold it to First Bus, and where has that money gone?” she asked. Coun Carter said a building like that so close to Halifax town centre should never have been sold and should have come back to the local authority, or at least money from its sale should.

Sounds like she needs the last 51 years of the bus industry explaining to her

 

[Mollman]

This is funny

Anger at sale of Halifax bus garage

A Calderdale councillor has been expressing her anger that a Halifax bus garage and associated offices have been sold.

www.halifaxcourier.co.uk

A local councillor is “appalled” that Halifax bus depot is owned by FirstBus considering at one time it was owned by the Halifax corporation

“who the heck sold it to First Bus, and where has that money gone?” she asked. Coun Carter said a building like that so close to Halifax town centre should never have been sold and should have come back to the local authority, or at least money from its sale should.

Sounds like she needs the last 51 years of the bus industry explaining to her

She could have done some research first, a lot of 'believes' in there. Technically no one sold it to First as it was part of Badgerline Group.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

This is funny

Anger at sale of Halifax bus garage

A Calderdale councillor has been expressing her anger that a Halifax bus garage and associated offices have been sold.

www.halifaxcourier.co.uk

A local councillor is “appalled” that Halifax bus depot is owned by FirstBus considering at one time it was owned by the Halifax corporation

“who the heck sold it to First Bus, and where has that money gone?” she asked. Coun Carter said a building like that so close to Halifax town centre should never have been sold and should have come back to the local authority, or at least money from its sale should.

Sounds like she needs the last 51 years of the bus industry explaining to her

Jesus wept - talk about uninformed wiffle.

Yorkshire Rider was sold to its management and employees (ESOP) for £20m (£75m in today's money) at the behest of (checks notes) the Conservative Government of Margaret Thatcher. Then sold to Badgerline Group, who then formed part of First Bus.

That's aside from the assets of Halifax Corporation Transport being part of West Yorkshire PTE since 1974.

 

[Whisky Papa]

This is funny

Anger at sale of Halifax bus garage

A Calderdale councillor has been expressing her anger that a Halifax bus garage and associated offices have been sold.

www.halifaxcourier.co.uk

A local councillor is “appalled” that Halifax bus depot is owned by FirstBus considering at one time it was owned by the Halifax corporation

“who the heck sold it to First Bus, and where has that money gone?” she asked. Coun Carter said a building like that so close to Halifax town centre should never have been sold and should have come back to the local authority, or at least money from its sale should.

Sounds like she needs the last 51 years of the bus industry explaining to her

That is indeed very funny, particularly given her status as a Conservative councillor .

However, her question of "where has the money gone?" set me thinking. The garage had been vested in Yorkshire Rider at deregulation (for a token sum I think), but in the autumn of 1989 YR was bought by its employees via an Employees Share Ownership Plan, of which I was a member having joined as a driver that July. Nominal 'shares' were allocated to staff each year - luckily for you readers I've recently ditched the paperwork as part of a clearout or I could give chapter and verse on this. At this point, the argument would be the garage was owned by the staff, I think?

When Badgerline bought out the Yorkshire Rider ESOP, a cash lump sum of around £1,000 and a considerable number of Badgerline shares (something like 1900 I think?) were distributed to staff members. Unlike the nominal ESOP shares, these were fully-functioning tradeable shares, which many of my colleagues sold immediately. I hung on to mine until after the creation of Firstgroup, by which time their value had rocketed, and I then sold odd batches when a cash injection was needed. One lot paid for a new kitchen, some for holidays and I also sold some to invest in other shares to spread the risk (admittedly with mixed results!). I should say I'm not a Conservative voter, I didn't approve of deregulation nor the subsequent loss of local authority assetts for nominal sums. However, I am a pragmatist, and made the best of the situation as it was presented to me to keep my family fed and watered (see also: driving for Bee Line Buzz Company and UK North!).

So, I would argue 'the money' went largely to the YR staff, or at least those there by summer 1989. I would have thought this would have been exactly the sort of outcome Mrs Thatcher might have had in mind?

Apologies for duplicating parts of #1804 that beat me to it!

 

[noddingdonkey]

First Huddersfield seem to have started work on making the PIS work on the 72 plate Streetlites it got from new a few years ago. I was on 63443 yesterday and it had the screen working but audio announcements that it was service 382 to whatever the next stop was rather than the final destination.

Obviously totally missed the deadline for these improvements, but nice to see a little action on their part.

 

[grdc]

First Huddersfield seem to have started work on making the PIS work on the 72 plate Streetlites it got from new a few years ago. I was on 63443 yesterday and it had the screen working but audio announcements that it was service 382 to whatever the next stop was rather than the final destination.

Obviously totally missed the deadline for these improvements, but nice to see a little action on their part.

Ha. First are truly hopeless. This is exactly how the software is set up on Bramley's Streetdeck Electroliners (Leeds' newest buses).

The data is plainly there, as it is showing correctly on the screens, but the code for the voice synthesizer has been written pointing at the wrong field.

There is no way they don't know about this issue, I just assume they just don't care.

 

[mattb7tl]

Ha. First are truly hopeless. This is exactly how the software is set up on Bramley's Streetdeck Electroliners (Leeds' newest buses).

The data is plainly there, as it is showing correctly on the screens, but the code for the voice synthesizer has been written pointing at the wrong field.

There is no way they don't know about this issue, I just assume they just don't care.

I contacted them a while ago about announcements. It is interesting they cannot get announcements working after three actual real life years. I think we must remember they are 'The Best for West Yorkshire' according to... themselves.

Just two more years left...

 

[grdc]

I contacted them a while ago about announcements. It is interesting they cannot get announcements working after three actual real life years. I think we must remember they are 'The Best for West Yorkshire' according to... themselves.

Just two more years left...

Yes, I am 100% on the same page, and I say this an ex-employee of First Leeds, I cannot wait until they are no longer in control of who gets what bus and at what time.

They have just got worse and worse, and since Covid seem to have given up all together.

I live in Churwell, and we have gone from 8 buses an hour on the 51/52 after the takeover of Black Prince (when they promised the moon to get the deal over the line), to 4 buses an hour now.

What other First innovations have we experienced?

How about completely crazy nonsensical times that don't follow any pattern at all? Check.

Maybe they could have the post-6PM evening buses have completely different times past the hour on Weekdays versus Saturdays versus Sundays? Check.

And obviously the evening service despite being two busses an hour, lets make sure they are spaced out at 34/26 apart or something equally stupid? Check.

Earlier and earlier final busses from both ends at each "minor timetable change?" Check.

Bus severed in Leeds, for dubious reasons, making travel to/from the North of the city centre harder? Check.

Promised through tickets for the 38/39 would be available, but the drivers look at you as if you've got two heads if you ask for one? Check.

Different time final buses Weekdays/Saturdays/Sundays? Check.

Crazy inconsistencies with distribution between 51/52? ie: All buses go to Tingley as a 52 on Sunday, including half-hourly all night. But Monday-Saturday only every other bus is a 52 at night, so hourly? Check.

Crappy old buses brought in from elsewhere? Check.

Now on this last point, I know some enthusiasts and maybe some drivers might well prefer an 07/08 Volvo Eclipse to a Streetdeck, but I can assure you that normal passengers can tell the difference and would prefer the newer bus. We had the route change overnight from being mostly Bramley's Electroliners to Hunslet's oldest vehicles available, after their newer busses have been allocated to Headingley Lane and the 2/3/12/13s. The tatty old eclipses with "HX connect" on the sides, are the piece-de-la-resistance. It's very hard to not feel as if we're being treated with contempt.

It was always the case that Leeds (perfectly logically) made the most profit in West Yorkshire (indeed I think in the whole of First) so generally they would hand their buses onto Huddersfield/Halifax or Norwich or wherever. For Leeds now to be receiving Huddersfield/Halifax hand me downs, and indeed from all over the country, it's hard not to see this as an intentional insult. I remember the fanfare when the green Streetdecks arrived, with first boasting about their "investment in Leeds" in response to Metro's concerns about the off-the-charts particulate-matter polution in varioius parts of the city centre. But now there are "Leeds Green" Streetdecks operating elsewhere, and we are riding on 17 year old cast-offs.

My apologies for focussing on the buses that pass my house, as I'm sure everyone has similar experiences, but I am more able to witness and document the deterioration in the service I receive than that no-doubt happening elsewhere.

My belief is that after extracting the maximum amount possible from Leeds over the years, they are now deliberately running the operation into the ground ahead of franchising, and for that reason I hope that they receive as little work as possible under the new setup. I hope also that once Metro own the busses and depots, and control the timetables and routes, it doesn't take too long for them to realise that they really don't need First and their greedy management involved at all, and that the profits made by this organisation could be better invested back into the network by running it yourself. Seems to work pretty well for the current "Bus operator of the year" in Edinburgh.

 

[noddingdonkey]

I agree with much of that. Since COVID the strategy has been to keep cutting the timetable in response to lower usage then appear surprised when that leads to even lower numbers as it becomes less convenient.

It certainly does feel like a token effort in preparation for franchising ending their license to print money.

 

[AndyHudds]

I agree with much of that. Since COVID the strategy has been to keep cutting the timetable in response to lower usage then appear surprised when that leads to even lower numbers as it becomes less convenient.

It certainly does feel like a token effort in preparation for franchising ending their license to print money.

Why did it never occur to try and drive up usage? Seems an obvious thing to do.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Why did it never occur to try and drive up usage? Seems an obvious thing to do.

Because First Group has always been more concerned with trying to drive up the share price. When the money is easy First does quite well but when the going gets tough they seem more inclined to simply give up. See the the pre-franchising decline of First Manchester or the outright capitulation in Northampton or Southampton. Once upon a time Stagecoach was seen as a rogue operator but they are now easily the best of the big groups. If First and Arriva were both to disappear I doubt there would be many tears shed.

 

[noddingdonkey]

It feels like having spent the last decade slowly chipping away at the timetables to the extent that it was really a service designed as a bare minimum to be tolerated by people who had no other choice but to use it (rather than an attractive alternative to the car) they were caught unawares when after COVID a lot of people suddenly had a choice and preferred to work from home rather than put up with the poor service.

Rather than up their game, they went into a self fulfilling downward spiral of cuts that each led to lower usage as the service became unusable for more people, particularly as the threadbare off peak services combine with a hub and spoke model requiring a long wait to change bus to get anywhere other than the town/city centre, making a lot of leisure journies unviable.

 

[mattb7tl]

I agree with much of that. Since COVID the strategy has been to keep cutting the timetable in response to lower usage then appear surprised when that leads to even lower numbers as it becomes less convenient.

It certainly does feel like a token effort in preparation for franchising ending their license to print money.

The funny part about this is that a while back their representative walked into a transport committee meeting. She bragged about patronage growth in Leeds (8% IIRC) then in the same month they proceeded to cut services in Leeds. They had data right in front of them showing a positive trajectory and they decided that cuts were the best way to respond.

The more you look for reasons why these cuts happen the less they make sense. Finances? Extremely healthy. Shortage? Better than other companies. Demand? The worst performing depot (Bradford) carries more passengers per PVR than ANY depot owned by Arriva Yorkshire. The only options that remain are retaliation or incompetence.

 

[tbtc]

Why did it never occur to try and drive up usage? Seems an obvious thing to do.

Seems obvious but taking a risk to potentially build markets requires short term losses in the expectation of medium/ longer term gains

With the Weaver network round the corner, businesses aren't going to speculate like that; they'd not be able to 'accumulate'

Also, how does a bus company simply drive up usage? Even the significant price reduction (and simplicity of) the £2 fares has barely affected any areas positively (beyond a tiny number of tourist routes like Coastliner) - pensioner numbers have dropped significantly despite them being 'free'

(and any plans to throw more vehicles at PVRs needs to be seen in the context of ongoing staffing problems across the industry)

 

[noddingdonkey]

They drive usage by providing a useful service, not slashing the timetable at the first sign of a drop in usage. Yes, some trips may have been underused, but cynically removing them ignores the big picture. If withdrawing that evening trip means that somebody's return journey isn't possible, you lose their custom in the morning too as they find alternative means of getting to work. The same with weekend services, if somebody's social life now means that they have to get a car because they can't make the journey they need by bus, you've lost them in the week for their commute too.

The thing about the £2 fares is that FWY were previously offering a £2 single fare on their app, so whatever they received in subsidy for that initiative would have been pure profit.

 

[TUC]

This is funny

Anger at sale of Halifax bus garage

A Calderdale councillor has been expressing her anger that a Halifax bus garage and associated offices have been sold.

www.halifaxcourier.co.uk

A local councillor is “appalled” that Halifax bus depot is owned by FirstBus considering at one time it was owned by the Halifax corporation

“who the heck sold it to First Bus, and where has that money gone?” she asked. Coun Carter said a building like that so close to Halifax town centre should never have been sold and should have come back to the local authority, or at least money from its sale should.

Sounds like she needs the last 51 years of the bus industry explaining to her

I was at the council meeting where this came up. She seemed to think the sale had been some unannounced transaction in recent years as opposed to be part of the sale of Yorkshire Rider 35 years ago.

A classic example of doing basic research before opening your mouth in public.

 

[mattb7tl]

Seems obvious but taking a risk to potentially build markets requires short term losses in the expectation of medium/ longer term gains

With the Weaver network round the corner, businesses aren't going to speculate like that; they'd not be able to 'accumulate'

Also, how does a bus company simply drive up usage? Even the significant price reduction (and simplicity of) the £2 fares has barely affected any areas positively (beyond a tiny number of tourist routes like Coastliner) - pensioner numbers have dropped significantly despite them being 'free'

(and any plans to throw more vehicles at PVRs needs to be seen in the context of ongoing staffing problems across the industry)

Never is the keyword. They did not attempt to drive up usage when the future was a certainty. A large majority of improvements in the past and present were the idea of the authority.

First are professional victims. They paint the picture like the decline is out of their hands and deflect the blame onto the authority with bus priority. A narrative a scary amount of people believe despite the fact they have no examples of generating growth and preventing decline on routes which have priority.

The success stories on bus companies driving up usage are largely to do with service levels, passenger experience, and a change in planning. A lot of bus companies wait for demand which is idiotic and not a single network outside of the deregulated world runs a network in this way because it only heads in one direction.

GAG moved away from this approach and the results are seen with the m1 & m2 in Bournemouth. A service intentionally overly frequent with vehicles larger than demand as mentioned in the "Britain's Buses at their Best" documentary. It grows year on year and demand has been catching up with the frequency and capacity.

 

[TUC]

First Huddersfield seem to have started work on making the PIS work on the 72 plate Streetlites it got from new a few years ago. I was on 63443 yesterday and it had the screen working but audio announcements that it was service 382 to whatever the next stop was rather than the final destination.

Obviously totally missed the deadline for these improvements, but nice to see a little action on their part.

Just in terms of accessibility for visually impaired passengers, allowing such incorrect information to go out is appalling.

 

[Deerfold]

Never is the keyword. They did not attempt to drive up usage when the future was a certainty. A large majority of improvements in the past and present were the idea of the authority.

First are professional victims. They paint the picture like the decline is out of their hands and deflect the blame onto the authority with bus priority. A narrative a scary amount of people believe despite the fact they have no examples of generating growth and preventing decline on routes which have priority.

The success stories on bus companies driving up usage are largely to do with service levels, passenger experience, and a change in planning. A lot of bus companies wait for demand which is idiotic and not a single network outside of the deregulated world runs a network in this way because it only heads in one direction.

GAG moved away from this approach and the results are seen with the m1 & m2 in Bournemouth. A service intentionally overly frequent with vehicles larger than demand as mentioned in the "Britain's Buses at their Best" documentary. It grows year on year and demand has been catching up with the frequency and capacity.

They removed a couple of routes I used regularly that had an hourly service with extras in the peaks. They went from that to no service at all, having made only minor changes for a dozen years before that which came as a bit of a shock to many people who were left with few alternatives.
I understand the service as a whole may not have been profitable, but if they were putting extra buses on in the peak, presumably some of the trips were.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Looks like repowers 71030 and 70101 are back at York on a more permanent basis.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Looks like repowers 71030 and 70101 are back at York on a more permanent basis.

Loans for Freshers' Week for UoY

 

[NorthernSpirit]

This is funny

Anger at sale of Halifax bus garage

A Calderdale councillor has been expressing her anger that a Halifax bus garage and associated offices have been sold.

www.halifaxcourier.co.uk

A local councillor is “appalled” that Halifax bus depot is owned by FirstBus considering at one time it was owned by the Halifax corporation

“who the heck sold it to First Bus, and where has that money gone?” she asked. Coun Carter said a building like that so close to Halifax town centre should never have been sold and should have come back to the local authority, or at least money from its sale should.

Sounds like she needs the last 51 years of the bus industry explaining to her

Jesus wept - talk about uninformed wiffle.

Yorkshire Rider was sold to its management and employees (ESOP) for £20m (£75m in today's money) at the behest of (checks notes) the Conservative Government of Margaret Thatcher. Then sold to Badgerline Group, who then formed part of First Bus.

That's aside from the assets of Halifax Corporation Transport being part of West Yorkshire PTE since 1974.

Where's the money gone? Erm... wages, replenishment of fleet, consumables such as fuel, oil and coolant, shareholders and paint to name a few. I think the councillor should focus on more pressing issues such as to why Halifax, Calderdale's main town centre, doesn't have a swimming pool rather than what's happened to the proceeds of a private bus operator selling off their own land.

From what I've read a Lidl and a Costa Coffee is to be built on the former Skircoat Road site.

 

[YorkRailFan]

West Yorkshire service changes from 26 October:

Halifax

Service	Change
576	Minor timetable changes to improve punctuality and reliability.

Huddersfield

Service	Change
328	Minor timetable changes to improve punctuality and reliability. As well as earlier morning and later evening journeys added.
370/371	Minor timetable changes to improve punctuality and reliability. As well as earlier morning journeys added. Reintroduction of evening services on service 371, which will run hourly.

Leeds

Service	Change
15	Rerouted, outbound services to Old Farnley will go around Gamble Hill Drive, following the same route as inbound services.
876	Service withdrawn, in line with the end of the summer operating period.

26th October service changes

We're making some changes to our services across West Yorkshire from Sunday 26th October to improve punctuality and help you get where you need to be. You can find a summary of the changes, including timetables, below: Halifax Service Change Timetable 576

www.firstbus.co.uk

Early morning and later evening journeys being added is certainly a positive!

 

[AndyHudds]

West Yorkshire service changes from 26 October:

26th October service changes

We're making some changes to our services across West Yorkshire from Sunday 26th October to improve punctuality and help you get where you need to be. You can find a summary of the changes, including timetables, below: Halifax Service Change Timetable 576

www.firstbus.co.uk

Early morning and later evening journeys being added is certainly a positive!

I find all this adding of late services a bit mystifying as that's something they've been degrading for years now, so why re-instate them now?

 

[mattb7tl]

I find all this adding of late services a bit mystifying as that's something they've been degrading for years now, so why re-instate them now?

I don't know what you mean!

This has always been a company defined by the tireless ambition to grow, nurture, and appropriately cross-subsidise the network. Cuts? Decay? Decline? Those words have never existed in their vocabulary. For the past decade they’ve been laser focused on expanding hours, boosting frequencies, and working hand in glove with the authority.

And let’s not forget the fleet. It has always been nothing but eco friendly marvels, straight from the factory floor. Never once did they limp along with twenty year old museum pieces donated from elsewhere, no, that would just be a ridiculous myth people invent. Investment has always been their proud tradition.

This is, of course, a high quality operator, with no ulterior motives whatsoever. Any suggestion that a sudden flurry of “improvements” might be linked to franchising bidding opening? Pure conspiracy theory. They’ve always operated at this standard, consistent innovators, paragons of the industry. Truly, it would be unfair, almost slanderous, to think otherwise

 

[Ballyheigue]

I find all this adding of late services a bit mystifying as that's something they've been degrading for years now, so why re-instate them now?

It could simply be that the driver shortage easing and they've managed to retain enough drivers so additional early/late journeys can be put in. This isn't a racist thing but I have noticed generally there seems to be a lot of African's willing to do late shifts, so maybe as more immigrants are allowed to legally settle and find work, they're the ones who are going for such jobs involving late/early shifts?

 

[Deerfold]

West Yorkshire service changes from 26 October:

26th October service changes

We're making some changes to our services across West Yorkshire from Sunday 26th October to improve punctuality and help you get where you need to be. You can find a summary of the changes, including timetables, below: Halifax Service Change Timetable 576

www.firstbus.co.uk

Early morning and later evening journeys being added is certainly a positive!

They only look to be a few minutes earlier or later (there have aleady been some improvements to earlier and later services).

They do now leave at slightly different times past the hour each hour in the evening. Still not back to the pre-pandemic half hourly evening service that they seem to have abandoned on dozens of routes.

I wonder if they'll ever reinstate the 539 or put the 587 back to hourly after the "temporary" changes due to the driver shortage.

 

[Steve440]

They only look to be a few minutes earlier or later (there have aleady been some improvements to earlier and later services).

They do now leave at slightly different times past the hour each hour in the evening. Still not back to the pre-pandemic half hourly evening service that they seem to have abandoned on dozens of routes.

I wonder if they'll ever reinstate the 539 or put the 587 back to hourly after the "temporary" changes due to the driver shortage.

We can only hope that franchising improves the situation. Where I live (Golcar), the last bus from Huddersfield is now 22:20 which is frankly useless and just providing work for taxi companies. First don't seem to realise that if people can't get a bus home after a night out, they are not going to use it to get to town either.

 

[mattb7tl]

It could simply be that the driver shortage easing and they've managed to retain enough drivers so additional early/late journeys can be put in. This isn't a racist thing but I have noticed generally there seems to be a lot of African's willing to do late shifts, so maybe as more immigrants are allowed to legally settle and find work, they're the ones who are going for such jobs involving late/early shifts?

In the past when the company has worked in partnership with the authority they would refuse to make any improvements to the usability of a service without indefinite funding from the taxpayer. It pre-dates the shortage and the pandemic.

If they did not make these improvements in the past in essentially a perfect environment compared to the present with higher usage, higher profits, and a partnership without their business at risk, why would they make these improvements now? It is performative to look good on paper for franchising.