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Connexions Buses (Harrogate Coach Travel)

stevieinselby

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Would suggest if the X52 ceased its quite likely the extension of the 62 would occur again
I'm sure that Transdev would happily take over the Harrogate to Otley corridor and would reinstate a half-hourly service to Wetherby to cover the X70 if it disappeared ... but what about the X4, X12, 13, 64 and 412, which are wholly or partly commercial? It's hard to see any other operator taking those on without public subsidy – and given the difficulty Metro had in getting the Wharfedale contracts filled to the point where they have had to accept timetables that were built around Connexions' school buses, because no other operator was willing to run the service for a sensible subsidy level – I suspect that a fair number of their subsidy contracts are costing taxpayers a heck of a lot less than they would be otherwise as well.
 
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YorkRailFan

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I'm sure the 11, 13 & 64 would find new operators quickly. The real challenge lies with the X4, X12 and to a lesser extent the 412.

Regarding the Wharfeconnexions services, it'll be interesting to see how West Yorkshire Combined Authority would tender the services to avoid past problems with subsidies.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I'm sure the 11, 13 & 64 would find new operators quickly. The real challenge lies with the X4, X12 and to a lesser extent the 412.

Regarding the Wharfeconnexions services, it'll be interesting to see how West Yorkshire Combined Authority would tender the services to avoid past problems with subsidies.
The 11 and 64 (and the Wharfedales) will become part of the brave new Weavers world so we may only have 18-24 months before they have new operators!!

I do hope that Connexions and other small/medium enterprises (SMEs) get a place in which to develop, unlike the Bee Network where they've been eradicated.
 

YorkRailFan

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The 11 and 64 (and the Wharfedales) will become part of the brave new Weavers world so we may only have 18-24 months before they have new operators!!
Should've specified that I meant how will WYCA sort out previous problems with the Wharfeconnexions subsidising when it comes to franchising.
 

Leedsbusman

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Would suggest if the X52 ceased its quite likely the extension of the 62 would occur again
Do you reckon? Wouldn’t just replacing X52 with a 1 bus working from Harrogate be cheaper than a 2 bus extension of the 62 from Ilkley?
Or just letting it go to tender given that the A2 covers most of it.
 

Ballyheigue

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Do you reckon? Wouldn’t just replacing X52 with a 1 bus working from Harrogate be cheaper than a 2 bus extension of the 62 from Ilkley?
Or just letting it go to tender given that the A2 covers most of it.
What'll most likely happen is either wait for a tender to go out, or if they really want to keep the link between Otley and Harrogate going they could re-time the A2 and A3 to connect in Pool and advertise it as a connection in timetables.
 

SCH117X

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Connexions jumped in with the now cut back from Ilkley X52 and now withdrawn X53 as soon as First announced cutting the 653 which deterred anyone else from registering so saying its not commercially viable is making some assumptions. There is also the issue with a number of their services that the York and North Yorkshire Combined Authority have indicated they are looking at improving services. There was reference made to smaller buses for Harrogate with the implication that services woud expanded back towards the former Hoppa network which seemed to have a bus down virtually every through route. That would encompass the X4 and X12.
 

YorkRailFan

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City of York Council also trialed a 30 minute service on the 13 with Connexions, but Connexions struggled with working the service with their school services. The current every 45 minutes timetable on the 13 still relies on buses also running school services.

Reductions on the 412 in 2023 were so bad that North Yorkshire Council stepped in with a minibus providing a singular round trip between York & Wetherby on weekdays.
There was reference made to smaller buses for Harrogate with the implication that services woud expanded back towards the former Hoppa network which seemed to have a bus down virtually every through route. That would encompass the X4 and X12.
Obviously double deckers on the X4/X12 is excessive but I believe these vehicles often interwork with school services.
 

stevieinselby

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Connexions jumped in with the now cut back from Ilkley X52 and now withdrawn X53 as soon as First announced cutting the 653 which deterred anyone else from registering so saying its not commercially viable is making some assumptions. There is also the issue with a number of their services that the York and North Yorkshire Combined Authority have indicated they are looking at improving services. There was reference made to smaller buses for Harrogate with the implication that services woud expanded back towards the former Hoppa network which seemed to have a bus down virtually every through route. That would encompass the X4 and X12.
I have no doubt that Harrogate to Otley would be commercially viable for another operator. The fact that Connexions jumped in when First Bradford withdrew it is positive, but another operator could have done that. Transdev did try going head-to-head with them some years later but by then the X52 was well established and so passengers stuck with them. If YNYCA want to pay for more regular hoppa buses to places like Duchy Road, Wedderburn, Claro Road and any of the other neighbourhoods that have lost their service in the last 15 years then that would be great, and I'm sure even if Connexions don't get the contracts then they will hardly miss the income from their X4 and X12 journeys.
Reductions on the 412 in 2023 were so bad that North Yorkshire Council stepped in with a minibus providing a singular round trip between York & Wetherby on weekdays.

Obviously double deckers on the X4/X12 is excessive but I believe these vehicles often interwork with school services.
To be specific, the service no longer offered a commuter journey to Wetherby. This was actually as far back as November 2018 and coincided with when Connexions withdrew the X70 from Tadcaster and at the same time dropped the commuter journey from York to Wetherby, even when the 412 was still 2-hourly during the daytime and interworked with the X70, and that NYCC journey has remained unchanged ever since. To be fair, Connexions had been running the service commercially and so at no cost to the council, which previous operators had not been willing to do, so for them to put on one minibus journey which then goes on to work other services for the rest of the day is small beer in comparison to what they would have been paying out in subsidy over the last 10 years for anyone else to run it.

Yes, a lot of their services interwork with school journeys, that's why they run double deckers on minor routes like the 412 and 923 where passenger numbers don't merit anything much bigger than a Transit!
 

YorkRailFan

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To be specific, the service no longer offered a commuter journey to Wetherby
The North Yorkshire Council journeys now provide the only bus service into Knapton Village.
even when the 412 was still 2-hourly during the daytime and interworked with the X70,
It still does interwork with the X70, the vehicle on the 412 does a round trip on the X70 between 412 workings on an afternoon.
 

Deerfold

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I have no doubt that Harrogate to Otley would be commercially viable for another operator. The fact that Connexions jumped in when First Bradford withdrew it is positive, but another operator could have done that. Transdev did try going head-to-head with them some years later but by then the X52 was well established and so passengers stuck with them. If YNYCA want to pay for more regular hoppa buses to places like Duchy Road, Wedderburn, Claro Road and any of the other neighbourhoods that have lost their service in the last 15 years then that would be great, and I'm sure even if Connexions don't get the contracts then they will hardly miss the income from their X4 and X12 journeys.

To be specific, the service no longer offered a commuter journey to Wetherby. This was actually as far back as November 2018 and coincided with when Connexions withdrew the X70 from Tadcaster and at the same time dropped the commuter journey from York to Wetherby, even when the 412 was still 2-hourly during the daytime and interworked with the X70, and that NYCC journey has remained unchanged ever since. To be fair, Connexions had been running the service commercially and so at no cost to the council, which previous operators had not been willing to do, so for them to put on one minibus journey which then goes on to work other services for the rest of the day is small beer in comparison to what they would have been paying out in subsidy over the last 10 years for anyone else to run it.
Connexions ran the X52 two-hourly to Ilkley and the X52 two-hourly to Guiseley.
Connections at Ilkley to the 62 worked well.
Then Transdev extended the 62 to Harrogate and Connexions withdrew the X53 and timed the X52 to be 5 minutes before the 62 every hour.

After a bit of messing around the 62 extension was withdrawn but the changes meant the connection at Ilkley was broken with the X52 leaving as the 62 arrived.

With the shortening of the X52, it's much quicker from Keighley to get the train via Leeds to Harrogate than to go by bus.
 

Leedsbusman

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City of York Council also trialed a 30 minute service on the 13 with Connexions, but Connexions struggled with working the service with their school services. The current every 45 minutes timetable on the 13 still relies on buses also running school services.

Reductions on the 412 in 2023 were so bad that North Yorkshire Council stepped in with a minibus providing a singular round trip between York & Wetherby on weekdays.

Obviously double deckers on the X4/X12 is excessive but I believe these vehicles often interwork with school services.
The 13 was commercially a half hourly service from when Connexions took it over - CYC propped it up post Covid but I believe no longer fund it hence the reduction.
 

YorkRailFan

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The 13 was commercially a half hourly service from when Connexions took it over - CYC propped it up post Covid but I believe no longer fund it hence the reduction.
Even when CYC propped it up, the 13 was a bit of a mess at half-hourly thanks to vehicles needing to interwork with school services. Even now at every 45 minutes, it's not uncommon to have to change buses at Askham Bar Tesco, with 1 vehicle still used to work a Tadcaster Grammar service.
 

Andyh82

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Even when CYC propped it up, the 13 was a bit of a mess at half-hourly thanks to vehicles needing to interwork with school services. Even now at every 45 minutes, it's not uncommon to have to change buses at Askham Bar Tesco, with 1 vehicle still used to work a Tadcaster Grammar service.
All I can see from the workings on bus times is 3/4 of a round trip missing in the afternoon when the bus does school run

Everything else seems to be a straight forward operation using 3 vehicles
 

tigerdoyen

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Connexions ran the X52 two-hourly to Ilkley and the X52 two-hourly to Guiseley.
Connections at Ilkley to the 62 worked well.
Then Transdev extended the 62 to Harrogate and Connexions withdrew the X53 and timed the X52 to be 5 minutes before the 62 every hour.

After a bit of messing around the 62 extension was withdrawn but the changes meant the connection at Ilkley was broken with the X52 leaving as the 62 arrived.

With the shortening of the X52, it's much quicker from Keighley to get the train via Leeds to Harrogate than to go by bus.
The reason we cut the X52 at Otley was nothing to do with the 62 -- it was when First retimed the X84 and it ran at the same time as ours when it went to a 20 min service. For a period, until the fare cap, we offered through tickets transferring onto X84 and First offered through transferring from X84 to X52- but that was at a time when First was run by people who were bus people!
 

Deerfold

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The reason we cut the X52 at Otley was nothing to do with the 62 -- it was when First retimed the X84 and it ran at the same time as ours when it went to a 20 min service. For a period, until the fare cap, we offered through tickets transferring onto X84 and First offered through transferring from X84 to X52- but that was at a time when First was run by people who were bus people!
I didn't say why you cut the X52.
I just explained the effect it had.

Sadly Ilkley to Otley has gone from 5 buses an hour to 2 (occasionally 3) but not evenly spaced and taking different routes.
 

John HG1

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I didn't say why you cut the X52.
I just explained the effect it had.

Sadly Ilkley to Otley has gone from 5 buses an hour to 2 (occasionally 3) but not evenly spaced and taking different routes.

The reason we cut the X52 at Otley was nothing to do with the 62 -- it was when First retimed the X84 and it ran at the same time as ours when it went to a 20 min service. For a period, until the fare cap, we offered through tickets transferring onto X84 and First offered through transferring from X84 to X52- but that was at a time when First was run by people who were bus people!
Not directly relevant but I note you timetable leaflet for the X52 on display at Harrogate still refers to buses that run on to Ilkley. As far as I can tell this no longer applies.
 

Deerfold

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Not directly relevant but I note you timetable leaflet for the X52 on display at Harrogate still refers to buses that run on to Ilkley. As far as I can tell this no longer applies.
The last timetable change was in 2022.

Edit: just picked up an X52 timetable in Harrogate.

The times at Ilkley are on the connecting off-peak 962.
 
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SCH117X

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Given Hulleys are returning in the form of Hulleys by High Peak Buses as per the images in this thread
I would suggest its time the branding on Enviro 200 YX12DNH was removed.
 

Teapot42

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I would suggest its time the branding on Enviro 200 YX12DNH was removed.
Livery appears considerably different, 'Hulleys by High Peak' differs from 'Hulleys of Baslow', and I rather doubt High Peak are planning on extending quite that far north.
 

SCH117X

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Livery appears considerably different, 'Hulleys by High Peak' differs from 'Hulleys of Baslow', and I rather doubt High Peak are planning on extending quite that far north.
True but is pretty meaningless to passengers, unlike having a vehicle painted in a local heritage livery, and no doubt makes many think Connexions are short of vehicles and have this on loan.
 

John HG1

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The last timetable change was in 2022.

Edit: just picked up an X52 timetable in Harrogate.

The times at Ilkley are on the connecting off-peak 962.
Only just returned from a holiday, but to continue this, the times on the leaflet for the 962 don't reflect the times on Connexions online 962 timetable. Looking back on Bustimes, I can see no evidence of a vehicle running through as a 962. The timetable clearly says "showing through journeys to/from Ilkley".
 

Ballyheigue

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Only just returned from a holiday, but to continue this, the times on the leaflet for the 962 don't reflect the times on Connexions online 962 timetable. Looking back on Bustimes, I can see no evidence of a vehicle running through as a 962. The timetable clearly says "showing through journeys to/from Ilkley".
I must admit if I were Craig I'd be pulling the plug on a lot of the stuff he's having to do so I could allow myself time to focus on missed details like the above timetable. I know he does a lot of the driving such as on the X4 and X12, maybe he needs to cut back on routes so he isn't driving as much. Running a large network with all the expectations from the public as well as regulations meaning he has a lot of hours to put in, it's no wonder stuff like the above get missed.
 

Mollman

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I must admit if I were Craig I'd be pulling the plug on a lot of the stuff he's having to do so I could allow myself time to focus on missed details like the above timetable. I know he does a lot of the driving such as on the X4 and X12, maybe he needs to cut back on routes so he isn't driving as much. Running a large network with all the expectations from the public as well as regulations meaning he has a lot of hours to put in, it's no wonder stuff like the above get missed.
Or he could hire someone on a temporary basis to sort it out. There seems to be a few people on this forum who sound like they know what needs doing.
 

Deerfold

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Only just returned from a holiday, but to continue this, the times on the leaflet for the 962 don't reflect the times on Connexions online 962 timetable. Looking back on Bustimes, I can see no evidence of a vehicle running through as a 962. The timetable clearly says "showing through journeys to/from Ilkley".
The one I got matches the times of the 962 on their website exactly.
 

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John HG1

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The one I got matches the times of the 962 on their website exactly.
Yes, my mistake regarding the 962. Nevertheless, I can see no evidence of through journeys despite what the X52 timetable says.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The one I got matches the times of the 962 on their website exactly.
Further thought. Perhaps the leaflet should say "showing connecting journeys to Ilkley. Through journeys suggests no need to change vehicles.
 
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YorkRailFan

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Connexions now allows the purchase of All York tickets through the Mytrip app:
You can now purchase your All York tickets direct from us through the mytrip app.
You can buy the following:
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