Transdev Blazefield

[YorkRailFan]

Its been made permanent

That's fantastic news.

 

[billio]

Yesterday I was using the Transdev services between York and Thirsk. We had a timetable for these services, including the 30. Why do Transdev use different names for stops more or less opposite each other on the road. A specific example being Thormanby and Wentworth Avenue. A stranger such as I has no idea where Wentworth Avenue is, a further confusion being there is no bus stop sign for Wentworth Avenue. Living in Tadcaster and using the Coastliner service I have noticed similar different labelling of stops opposite each other and also the replacement of well known names with more obscure side streets. Why do this?

 

[Flange Squeal]

Yesterday I was using the Transdev services between York and Thirsk. We had a timetable for these services, including the 30. Why do Transdev use different names for stops more or less opposite each other on the road. A specific example being Thormanby and Wentworth Avenue. A stranger such as I has no idea where Wentworth Avenue is, a further confusion being there is no bus stop sign for Wentworth Avenue. Living in Tadcaster and using the Coastliner service I have noticed similar different labelling of stops opposite each other and also the replacement of well known names with more obscure side streets. Why do this?

Because that is the name of the stop on NaPTAN (National Public Transport Access Nodes), so Transdev using that as the timing point name in their timetables means it unites that with the likes of Google Maps and other services that use that information, rather than different things referring to the same stop with various different names. I think the choice of side roads over landmarks might be because sometimes things like pubs change names or close over time, where as the name of a side road is a more permanent thing.

 

[billio]

Because that is the name of the stop on NaPTAN (National Public Transport Access Nodes), so Transdev using that as the timing point name in their timetables means it unites that with the likes of Google Maps and other services that use that information, rather than different things referring to the same stop with various different names. I think the choice of side roads over landmarks might be because sometimes things like pubs change names or close over time, where as the name of a side road is a more permanent thing.

Thanks, I suspected it was something like that, but a feature not always useful for passengers.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Looks like 1513 has transferred from Flyer to Harrogate.

 

[Halish Railway]

Looks like 1513 has transferred from Flyer to Harrogate.

Possibly filling in for an E-Citaro that’s being used for familiarisation at Keighley or to replace the 7900Es?

 

[SCH117X]

The 7900Es will be in use until some time next month.

 

[John HG1]

More traffic problems in Harrogate this afternoon/evening. Emergency gas repairs have closed the A61 towards Leeds at South Drive roundabout leading to diversions via Oatlands Drive and Hookstone Road. I did see a Harrogate bound 36 coming south to Oatlands corner then turning left down Hookstone Road - don't know how it managed to get there and where it turned round.

 

[SCH117X]

The 7900Es will be in use until some time next month.

Scrub that - all now taken all of service yesterday according to Paul Tuner on Facebook. B7RLE 1860 is also to move to Starbeck from Idle with Versa 278 reinstated for the schools services at Idle

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Scrub that - all now taken all of service yesterday according to Paul Tuner on Facebook. B7RLE 1860 is also to move to Starbeck from Idle with Versa 278 reinstated for the schools services at Idle

A somewhat sudden and ignominuous, though not really unexpected, ending. The Harrogate fleet list is now looking somewhat homogeneous.

As for speculation about possible replacements are they really needed? The more modern e-buses are solidly reliable so additional back-ups could be somewhat extravagant. My guess is Transdev will be waiting to see the longer-term implications of West Yorkshire franchising before committing to further new vehicles in Yorkshire apart perhaps from York/Coastliner.

 

[Bwsbro]

A somewhat sudden and ignominuous, though not really unexpected, ending. The Harrogate fleet list is now looking somewhat homogeneous.

As for speculation about possible replacements are they really needed? The more modern e-buses are solidly reliable so additional back-ups could be somewhat extravagant. My guess is Transdev will be waiting to see the longer-term implications of West Yorkshire franchising before committing to further new vehicles in Yorkshire apart perhaps from York/Coastliner.

Harrogate should be unaffected in relation to West Yorkshire franchising, I’m guessing the 36 would still operate as per a permit system.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Harrogate should be unaffected in relation to West Yorkshire franchising, I’m guessing the 36 would still operate as per a permit system.

That seems a perfectly reasonable assumption though Flyer, Keighley and Team Pennine are likely to be affected significantly. And given the CAs have said they intend to cooperate/coordinate where possible who knows what will happen on the Leeds-Wetherby routes with possible/likely extensions onwards into North Yorkshire.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Harrogate should be unaffected in relation to West Yorkshire franchising, I’m guessing the 36 would still operate as per a permit system.

The 7 could be affected but that's very much unclear for now.

 

[Ballyheigue]

Scrub that - all now taken all of service yesterday according to Paul Tuner on Facebook. B7RLE 1860 is also to move to Starbeck from Idle with Versa 278 reinstated for the schools services at Idle

What an expensive mistake. I'm sure beyond doubt that if you said to a child 'we're going to buy a number of expensive electric buses that haven't been proven yet, on top of that we're going to install lots of very complex charging points, then we'll charge the buses frequently, so much so that the batteries wear out, then we'll withdraw them after no more than 4 or 5 years' they'll turn round and tell you that doesn't sound right! Yes the technology at the time was still being developed, but that's just it, still being developed, not yet proven at the time to be long lasting and reliable, Alex should have been told straight up to wait until a product came along that was long lasting and reliable.

 

[Andyh82]

What an expensive mistake. I'm sure beyond doubt that if you said to a child 'we're going to buy a number of expensive electric buses that haven't been proven yet, on top of that we're going to install lots of very complex charging points, then we'll charge the buses frequently, so much so that the batteries wear out, then we'll withdraw them after no more than 4 or 5 years' they'll turn round and tell you that doesn't sound right! Yes the technology at the time was still being developed, but that's just it, still being developed, not yet proven at the time to be long lasting and reliable, Alex should have been told straight up to wait until a product came along that was long lasting and reliable.

Who would you expect to ‘prove’ the technology if nobody bought electric buses until they were ‘proven’?

 

[SCH117X]

What an expensive mistake. I'm sure beyond doubt that if you said to a child 'we're going to buy a number of expensive electric buses that haven't been proven yet, on top of that we're going to install lots of very complex charging points, then we'll charge the buses frequently, so much so that the batteries wear out, then we'll withdraw them after no more than 4 or 5 years' they'll turn round and tell you that doesn't sound right! Yes the technology at the time was still being developed, but that's just it, still being developed, not yet proven at the time to be long lasting and reliable, Alex should have been told straight up to wait until a product came along that was long lasting and reliable.

The original cost was grant aided.
The lease on them ended next month anyway along with the service contract. Obviously having them offered for sale must have attracted some interest to result in them being taken out of service a couple of weeks earlier than expected. 806 is photoed on Facebook as having been acquired by DM Motor Services of Tockwith !
The overhead chargers can be used by the ADL400Es
The same vehicles are used by Stagecoach in Kilmarnock and by Birmingham Airport.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Sep 2025 ==

A somewhat sudden and ignominuous, though not really unexpected, ending. The Harrogate fleet list is now looking somewhat homogeneous.

As for speculation about possible replacements are they really needed?

Yes - the three hybrids at Starbeck are meant to drift between depots as rqeuried and not be a permament allocation anywhere.

 

[Ashly_Jethro]

What an expensive mistake. I'm sure beyond doubt that if you said to a child 'we're going to buy a number of expensive electric buses that haven't been proven yet, on top of that we're going to install lots of very complex charging points, then we'll charge the buses frequently, so much so that the batteries wear out, then we'll withdraw them after no more than 4 or 5 years' they'll turn round and tell you that doesn't sound right! Yes the technology at the time was still being developed, but that's just it, still being developed, not yet proven at the time to be long lasting and reliable, Alex should have been told straight up to wait until a product came along that was long lasting and reliable.

7 years is pretty standard for fleet turn around, even Blackburns 2012 B7RLEs were withdrawn at the 7 year mark, whilst others last a bit longer or get touched up for service elsewhere in the network.

And with them only being on lease and as already said, the initial cost being largely grant funded, I doubt it’s been much of a loss for the company if any.

Had they been privately purchased that’d be a very different matter.

 

[SCH117X]

The loss to the company at times has been reputation as they have increasingly been unreliable. 803 was the last one I saw in use on Monday and rattling somewhat to the point I did a doubletake thinking it was 801. 805 which hasn't worked bar half a day since it failed in 2013 was the first to depart from Starbeck this week. Coincidently it was thr only named after a school that got closed.
Seems they have managed to fix B7RLE 1838 as that has tracked today for the first time since Aug 28. Hopefully they have tweaked its branding for Your Harrogate radio as the featured presenter is now on a York radio station.

 

[Mollman]

What an expensive mistake. I'm sure beyond doubt that if you said to a child 'we're going to buy a number of expensive electric buses that haven't been proven yet, on top of that we're going to install lots of very complex charging points, then we'll charge the buses frequently, so much so that the batteries wear out, then we'll withdraw them after no more than 4 or 5 years' they'll turn round and tell you that doesn't sound right! Yes the technology at the time was still being developed, but that's just it, still being developed, not yet proven at the time to be long lasting and reliable, Alex should have been told straight up to wait until a product came along that was long lasting and reliable.

They lasted longer than those induction charged Streetlites in Milton Keynes.

 

[Leedsbusman]

What an expensive mistake. I'm sure beyond doubt that if you said to a child 'we're going to buy a number of expensive electric buses that haven't been proven yet, on top of that we're going to install lots of very complex charging points, then we'll charge the buses frequently, so much so that the batteries wear out, then we'll withdraw them after no more than 4 or 5 years' they'll turn round and tell you that doesn't sound right! Yes the technology at the time was still being developed, but that's just it, still being developed, not yet proven at the time to be long lasting and reliable, Alex should have been told straight up to wait until a product came along that was long lasting and reliable.

That’s one way of looking at it. The other is buying buses from a market leading manufacturer using established technology in other parts of Europe. Specifying low capacity batteries which while rapid charging will reduce the life of are much cheaper to replace. Then successfully running them for six years.

Technology has advanced since then and many 2010s electric buses are having a short life or expensive retrofitting- First’s Versas at York being a case in point.

It seems like Transdev have managed to derisk this by taking these on a fixed lease so the residual value risk will be felt by the lease company.

The fixed infrastructure at the Bus Station has been repurposed for the E400EVs (pantographs) and eCitaros (plug in). Indeed it’s probably the E400EVs wouldn’t have happened if there wasn’t the opp charge infra already in place.

 

[RustySpoons]

7 years is pretty standard for fleet turn around, even Blackburns 2012 B7RLEs were withdrawn at the 7 year mark, whilst others last a bit longer or get touched up for service elsewhere in the network.

And with them only being on lease and as already said, the initial cost being largely grant funded, I doubt it’s been much of a loss for the company if any.

Had they been privately purchased that’d be a very different matter.

The difference being after the 7 years Blackburn's B7s went on to have a useful life elsewhere.

And regardless of where the money came from I'd say it's been an expensive mistake. That money would have been much better used buying more traditional powered vehicles that would still be earning their keep today.

Plus the environmental cost will be insane. Yes they've been quietly cruising round Harrogate for the past 7 years, but the environmental cost in building them and mining for the batteries and the subsequent scrapping of them won't have been recuperated. I do understand the batteries may be able to be repurposed, but even so a 7 year service life is not ideal at all.

Unlike the electric Versa, Solo, etc. these can't be refitted with an engine either. The entirely flat floor means there's nowhere for the engine to go.

Transdev might not have lost out on them financially as they clearly only signed up for a 7 year lease, but the tax-payer and the government certainly have in funding the grants used to pay for them.

 

[SCH117X]

The fact they have been pulled from service earlier than planned surely indicates the leasee has found buyers beyond 806

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The difference being after the 7 years Blackburn's B7s went on to have a useful life elsewhere.

And regardless of where the money came from I'd say it's been an expensive mistake. That money would have been much better used buying more traditional powered vehicles that would still be earning their keep today.

Plus the environmental cost will be insane. Yes they've been quietly cruising round Harrogate for the past 7 years, but the environmental cost in building them and mining for the batteries and the subsequent scrapping of them won't have been recuperated. I do understand the batteries may be able to be repurposed, but even so a 7 year service life is not ideal at all.

Unlike the electric Versa, Solo, etc. these can't be refitted with an engine either. The entirely flat floor means there's nowhere for the engine to go.

Transdev might not have lost out on them financially as they clearly only signed up for a 7 year lease, but the tax-payer and the government certainly have in funding the grants used to pay for them.

However, as mentioned above, this is not something that is confined to Transdev. Think of the First Versas that are on their third set of batteries (IIRC) or the various hybrids for that matter. East Yorkshire repowered their e400Hs. First Bath after they'd been stood for two years out of use after their batteries began expiring after 5 years; First Glasgow's were parked up and quietly depreciated. Stagecoach's e300Hs were owned and were disposed of after just 10 years. Not certain on First examples (leased or owned?) but they went after 10 years too as did their 7900Hs.

Surely the best ones were First Bristol with their diesel-electric geofenced e400s that were new in 2016, disposed of in 2019 after very intermittently working and went to Reaseheath College for apprentices to work on. Even more embarrassing, we have Merseyside 20 Hydrogen e400s of which 8/10 from Arriva haven't done a thing for a year (and are now hidden in ADL's yard in Anston) or Stagecoach's that have never turned a wheel in nearly 3 years.

Therefore, it's not the first instance or most egregious example of public money being employed in supporting relatively new and untested technology that has then been found to have been "sub-optimal". Perhaps there's some other reason why this is example has garnered more attention than others?

 

[SCH117X]

Q - why this is example has garnered more attention than others? Probably because a) its Transdev doing something badly in some peoples eyes irrelevant of whats happended elsewhere and b) they were hyped by Alex Hornby

 

[RustySpoons]

For me this example garnered my interest because I regularly use the company that operated them. I have zero knowledge of any Frist , Arriva, Stagecoach subsidiaries or whoever else operates them, I can only offer my opinion on what I've experienced myself.

Regardless of who hyped them my opinion would be the same. I don't believe BEVs are a suitable replacement for the internal combustion engine.

 

[YorkRailFan]

East Yorkshire repowered their e400Hs

To add to your point, East Yorkshire is also repowering former Go North East B5 Hybrids.

First’s Versas at York being a case in point.

First would've most likely ditched the Versas if it wasn't for the low bridge on Leeman Road prohibiting the use of the Kites.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I have zero knowledge of any Frist , Arriva, Stagecoach subsidiaries or whoever else operates them, I can only offer my opinion on what I've experienced myself.

Yet you would acknowledge that these are simply examples in Transdev's orbit? I'm sure that you recognise that there are many other examples of early technologies in the bus industry monies have been invested and lost to "the tax-payer and the government" from "funding the grants used to pay for them".

As I pointed out, these are far from the worst examples from across the industry.

As for diesel vs. BEV, I'm sure the same sentiments were probably espoused when diesel first began replacing steam on the railways.

To add to your point, East Yorkshire is also repowering former Go North East B5 Hybrids.

First would've most likely ditched the Versas if it wasn't for the low bridge on Leeman Road prohibiting the use of the Kites.

I'd forgotten about EY doing the B5s.

Very probably regarding the Versas. The other aspect is that a) battery technology has come a long way since those days and b) the financial position has changed so leasing of batteries has become more prevalent.

 

[Ashly_Jethro]

The difference being after the 7 years Blackburn's B7s went on to have a useful life elsewhere.

And regardless of where the money came from I'd say it's been an expensive mistake. That money would have been much better used buying more traditional powered vehicles that would still be earning their keep today.

Plus the environmental cost will be insane. Yes they've been quietly cruising round Harrogate for the past 7 years, but the environmental cost in building them and mining for the batteries and the subsequent scrapping of them won't have been recuperated. I do understand the batteries may be able to be repurposed, but even so a 7 year service life is not ideal at all.

Unlike the electric Versa, Solo, etc. these can't be refitted with an engine either. The entirely flat floor means there's nowhere for the engine to go.

Transdev might not have lost out on them financially as they clearly only signed up for a 7 year lease, but the tax-payer and the government certainly have in funding the grants used to pay for them.

For me this example garnered my interest because I regularly use the company that operated them. I have zero knowledge of any Frist , Arriva, Stagecoach subsidiaries or whoever else operates them, I can only offer my opinion on what I've experienced myself.

Regardless of who hyped them my opinion would be the same. I don't believe BEVs are a suitable replacement for the internal combustion engine.

My comments are responding to Transdev wasting their money on them. I don’t disagree with you, as a commodity they were a waste, and completely agree the concept of BEVs is flawed. All they serve to do it export emissions to the countries of manufacture and disposal, and when they’re as short lived as these, probably at a far greater scale than what a conventional diesel would produce in the same period.

Everyone has jumped on the BEV bandwagon without fairly weighing up the alternatives, if as much government or indeed private sector spending when into developing hydrogen storage and transportation, it would make a far better alternative.

 

[GWVillager]

It isn't Transdev's concern whether or not the grant that funded the 7900Es was worth it. That is a matter for the government and, considering it was a small order to test a technology that we were (and are) keen to develop, I think the choice was perfectly reasonable. There are questions about whether battery degradation will significantly shorten the lifespan of e-buses in the future, but I expect that we have passed a tipping point in the technology, and if you look at, say, the Yutong E10s in Leeds, which are just 2 years more recent than the Volvos, there are no signs of unanticipated ageing that I am aware of - indeed, they are proving themselves to have quite impressive availability.

We must acknowledge that we need non-internal combustion buses. We now seem to be at the stage where the battery bus is the alternative we are most confident in, but it is only so because of the knowledge gained and funding provided by early adopters such as Harrogate. If it took effectively one generation of mediocre buses to get the technology to a point at which its orders are outnumbering diesels, then clearly the decisions made can't have been that bad.

 

[Dwarfer1979]

My comments are responding to Transdev wasting their money on them. I don’t disagree with you, as a commodity they were a waste, and completely agree the concept of BEVs is flawed. All they serve to do it export emissions to the countries of manufacture and disposal, and when they’re as short lived as these, probably at a far greater scale than what a conventional diesel would produce in the same period.

Everyone has jumped on the BEV bandwagon without fairly weighing up the alternatives, if as much government or indeed private sector spending when into developing hydrogen storage and transportation, it would make a far better alternative.

But did Transdev actually waste their money on them since they are leased and have just been returned at the end of their lease term? It's not like Transdev haven't done this with diesel buses if they no longer have a need for a batch of buses at the end of a lease term they return them. No one expects batteries to last the life of the bus so replacement of the batteries was always going to be planned for, if Transdev had decided to retain these buses the batteries would have been replaced but they have a reduced requirement for buses since they ordered their latest electrics and have spares so don't need that many buses. Even with the latest battery options you are looking at changing the batteries at least once and probably twice during the life of the vehicle, however we have worked out that the running cost savings from running a battery bus (particularly maintenance costs) is on path to cover the cost of the batteries at the point we are expecting to replace them. We have already got to the point in the battery technology where the range offered is sufficient for possibly 90% of operators to cover all their work with only minor changes to their workings (so the late trips aren't on the same bus working as the earliest trips to even out the mileage) whilst over a similar period of time hydrogen doesn't seem to have moved a lot at all.

What has been shown generally is that opportunity charging, which is more common in Europe and was at one point being pushed hard by a number of manufacturers, is not as necessary as we can get decent ranges with modern battery chemistry options to do a full day. We do need to find a solution to longer distance bus routes, which Transdev are now trialling with the 36 using infrastructure built on the investment for these Volvos to see if opportunity charging can offer a solution here, and coaches otherwise we need Hydrogen to be sorted and at the moment there are still significant issues with general reliability (only Metrobus have their fleets running really reliably though Aberdeen may also be working but I am less familiar with that part of the country), fuel supply and planning restrictions around fuel stations (operators won't want to drive to, and rely on, 3rd party sites and a number of operators have depots in locations which may run in to similar issues that Metrobus had around proximity to a local school) mean it doesn't look viable to operators at the moment. Bus operators now understand batteries and what they can do and how to manage them but hydrogen is still an unknown that needs to be tried (just as batteries and opportunity charging were when Transdev bought their Volvos).