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Thoughts on the Trump presidency

AlterEgo

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There will be a very strong response from Trump now. Kirk was a personal friend of his.

The shooter is, allegedly - and unconfirmed - a balding white man in his 60s or so, who shot him as he was taking a question on gun control. (Edit: this man was apparently taken into custody on a separate matter. No details on the shooter yet)
 
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kristiang85

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With the stabbing of Iryna Zarutska coming out this week, and now the assassination of Charlie Kirk, the American right wingers have a lot of anger, and it's going to be quite febrile going forward. One hopes Trump will moderate his rhetoric, but I can't see that happening.
 

AlterEgo

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Whoever has shot Kirk knew what they were doing. It was a single shot from distance. It is likely to be someone with a lot of experience with guns. They also appeared to choose their moment, by doing so during a question on gun control.
 

Megafuss

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With the stabbing of Iryna Zarutska coming out this week, and now the assassination of Charlie Kirk, the American right wingers have a lot of anger, and it's going to be quite febrile going forward. One hopes Trump will moderate his rhetoric, but I can't see that happening.
The rabble rousers on the far right are already labeling Democrats as terrorists and they are at "war".

That is before the shooter has even been named and a motive given

Since the bombing of the Alfred P Murrah building, the far right have been waiting for something like this. It's going to get a lot worse very fast.
 

styles

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A sad day for US democracy. I feel for his wife and children.

I am betting there is no recognition from the Trump administration on the need for greater gun control, just as there was none after Trump was shot.
 

sad1e

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I am betting there is no recognition from the Trump administration on the need for greater gun control, just as there was none after Trump was shot.
Charlie Kirk was on the topic of gun control in his debate before he got shot advocating against it , ironic that the same thing that could have saved him he advocated against.

Is it just me or in general has this week seemed awfully eventful. Just this week there has been : Trump Epstein Letter released , Charlie Kirk Assassinated , Russia sending drones into Poland , Nepali government being overthrown , Prime minister of France stepping down and political tensions rising there , and probably a few other things I'm forgetting.
 

Cloud Strife

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I am betting there is no recognition from the Trump administration on the need for greater gun control, just as there was none after Trump was shot.

There's absolute silence. They are so deep in gun obsession that they have nothing to say, although plenty of left-leaning people are having a field day by pointing out all his statements about guns.

The fascinating thing for me is that they haven't caught the shooter, despite a huge amount of resources available to the American government. Then there's the fact that whoever did this was skilled enough to take him down and out with a single shot from a considerable distance. I'm not one for conspiracy theories (well, almost, MS Estonia aside), but this was an execution by someone who knew what they were doing. Then there's the fact that it happened just before 9/11, and the fact that the American government simply doesn't care about human lives.
 

styles

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There's absolute silence. They are so deep in gun obsession that they have nothing to say, although plenty of left-leaning people are having a field day by pointing out all his statements about guns.

The fascinating thing for me is that they haven't caught the shooter, despite a huge amount of resources available to the American government. Then there's the fact that whoever did this was skilled enough to take him down and out with a single shot from a considerable distance. I'm not one for conspiracy theories (well, almost, MS Estonia aside), but this was an execution by someone who knew what they were doing. Then there's the fact that it happened just before 9/11, and the fact that the American government simply doesn't care about human lives.
Don't forget Israel bombing Qatar
 

DarloRich

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You cant go around shooting people you disagree with. That shouldn't need saying but that it does shows how messed up the world is.
 

AlterEgo

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It is an extremely grim day. The video of the shooting was front and centre on Twitter and almost unavoidable to see. It'll be better to reflect on the fullness of the matter once things have subsided and he's had his funeral, but regardless, his wife and his poor kids now don't have their husband and father and that is tragic for them.

A very sick country which has totally lost the run of itself.
 

YorkshireBear

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Horrible situation.

I feel as the 'culture wars escalate it's only going to become more likely from both sides, and I see this situation is already not being used to calm those, but make them worse.
 

Bantamzen

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There's absolute silence. They are so deep in gun obsession that they have nothing to say, although plenty of left-leaning people are having a field day by pointing out all his statements about guns.

The fascinating thing for me is that they haven't caught the shooter, despite a huge amount of resources available to the American government. Then there's the fact that whoever did this was skilled enough to take him down and out with a single shot from a considerable distance. I'm not one for conspiracy theories (well, almost, MS Estonia aside), but this was an execution by someone who knew what they were doing. Then there's the fact that it happened just before 9/11, and the fact that the American government simply doesn't care about human lives.
I was thinking the same this morning. I had a quick nosey on Google Maps at the layout of the campus, and if the shot was taken from where the BBC were saying it was there are plenty of ways away from there for the shooter into residential areas, or even on to a freeway close by. So that guy is very possibly long gone. Note I am not saying this is part of any conspiracy, the shooter seems simply to have chosen a location with quick exits and seems to have been competent with a rifle.

You cant go around shooting people you disagree with. That shouldn't need saying but that it does shows how messed up the world is.
I totally agree. However in the US sadly as both sides have polarised more, so the rhetoric has got more toxic and something like this was always going to happen to someone in the public eye. Let's not forget that there have been fatal & non fatal attacks on a Democratic state representatives this year, so it is possible that this murder is an escalation on what has already happened.

What it needs is the President of the United States to pour some cold water over the growing anger from both sides, and call for calm whilst they hunt the shooter. Sadly Trump and his team seem to be headed to the gas station to get more fuel for the fires.
 

styles

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Can't be many countries bar the US and Yemen where you can get semi automatic rifles without a permit.

Yeah some individual states require permits, but most don't now, and even those which do mostly have a 'will issue' policy meaning it's basically just paperwork.
 

WelshBluebird

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Its worth stating the obvious - we dont know who the shooter is or who he supported. So anyone blaming Democrats or the left is talking out of their backsides until we know more.
 

scarby

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Is it just me or in general has this week seemed awfully eventful. Just this week there has been : Trump Epstein Letter released , Charlie Kirk Assassinated , Russia sending drones into Poland , Nepali government being overthrown , Prime minister of France stepping down and political tensions rising there , and probably a few other things I'm forgetting.
Yeah, notably that despite several interruptions due to rain, the County Championship Division Two match between eighth-placed Kent and sixth-placed Lancashire still looks quite interestingly poised going into the final day at Canterbury.
 

ainsworth74

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Obviously horrible for his family and just because you don't like someone's opinions or speech you can't go around shooting them.

But gosh it's sickening and frightening to see the immediate way that it's being used to to demonise the Democrats and liberal/left wingers, almost quite literally before the body is even cold. Where was this outpouring when a Democrat state representative was shot at home along with her husband and their pet dog by a Trump supporter? Or where was the condemnation of the fella that took a hammer to Paul Pelosi at this home (former Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi's husband)? Heck I seem to recall a number of fairly prominent Trump and MAGA types found it hilarious. Then again there are already people on the left/liberal side of the equation posting similar things about Kirk.

America has always had a strain of violence in its politics (must admit I found people on both sides saying violence has no place are perhaps lacking in an understanding of their own political history!) and maybe it felt similarly febrile in the 60s when you had a variety of political assassinations. But right now it feels like there's something very sick in the soul of America at the moment and this violence is going to escalate in all sorts of ways. Very very grim.
 

WelshBluebird

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Or where was the condemnation of the fella that took a hammer to Paul Pelosi at this home (former Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi's husband)? Heck I seem to recall a number of fairly prominent Trump and MAGA types found it hilarious.
Kirk himself was encouraging his supporters to help pay the attackers bail!
 

ainsworth74

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Kirk himself was encouraging his supporters to help pay the attackers bail!
Of course he was :rolleyes:

I mean there's a strong element of "live by the sword, die by the sword" to Kirk it feels like considering some of his statements on gun control:

Gun control was among the numerous political and social issues he discussed at events and on podcasts. A few months ago, Kirk said: "It's worth it to have a cost of, unfortunately, some gun deaths every single year so that we can have the Second Amendment".


Though, to be clear, still doesn't mean he should have been shot by anyone. It's a very bad sign when people are getting shot, it would seem likely, because of their political views.
 

brad465

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Obviously horrible for his family and just because you don't like someone's opinions or speech you can't go around shooting them.

But gosh it's sickening and frightening to see the immediate way that it's being used to to demonise the Democrats and liberal/left wingers, almost quite literally before the body is even cold. Where was this outpouring when a Democrat state representative was shot at home along with her husband and their pet dog by a Trump supporter? Or where was the condemnation of the fella that took a hammer to Paul Pelosi at this home (former Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi's husband)? Heck I seem to recall a number of fairly prominent Trump and MAGA types found it hilarious. Then again there are already people on the left/liberal side of the equation posting similar things about Kirk.

America has always had a strain of violence in its politics (must admit I found people on both sides saying violence has no place are perhaps lacking in an understanding of their own political history!) and maybe it felt similarly febrile in the 60s when you had a variety of political assassinations. But right now it feels like there's something very sick in the soul of America at the moment and this violence is going to escalate in all sorts of ways. Very very grim.
For a few years at least now I've come to believe that there is no peaceful route to the US getting to a much better place; this will only come through a significantly violent reckoning that makes them wake up and realise what they are doing now is not right or sustainable.

To quote An Inspector Calls: "We don't live alone. We are members of one body. We are responsible for each other. And I tell you that the time will soon come when, if men will not learn that lesson, then they will be taught it in fire and blood and anguish. Good night."
 

Megafuss

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In the Democrats (who I'm not fan of), the Christian fundamentalist right / white supremacist militia think they are fighting the literal devil. There is no reasoning with them.

Now some of those sympathetic/beholden to those views are in power.

I'm afraid America is gone.
 

DarloRich

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We need to be really careful here - Farage will bring this to the UK given the chance. The Deform socials today were not good.

PS I do agree - America is cooked. Probably gone. I thought that since the failed putsch. Bad times.
 

Tetchytyke

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We need to be really careful here - Farage will bring this to the UK given the chance. The Deform socials today were not good.
It was all across the fascist social space. Look at what Orban was saying. None of them were saying that when it was Democrat politicians getting murdered in their beds.

Very very dangerous times.

As for how the world sees the US at the minute, British Airways have a sale on. The fares they are charging to New York for travel next month are as low as I've seen them in probably the last ten years.
 

Strathclyder

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The fact Kirk encouraged his supporters to pay his attacker's (and ultimately murderer's) bail is, to me, effing insanity. But then that's US gun control and the self-destructive 'living on the knifes-edge' mentality of these people in a nutshell ain't it? So I can't really claim surprise anymore. Despair, anger and frustration, yes, but not surprise.

As much as I vehemently disliked the man and as much as the utterly vile, borderline rage-baiting stuff he regularly spewed did as was intended and enraged me and so many others, that didn't mean I wanted him shot and killed for it, for god sakes. Verbally destroyed to his face, his worldview systematially dismanted, his career turning to dust in some way, but not shot. If for absolutely no other reason than what something like this would do to his family. Lord knows how they are processing what's happened, but I wouldn't wish this sort of nightmare on them or any family.

For a few years at least now I've come to believe that there is no peaceful route to the US getting to a much better place; this will only come through a significantly violent reckoning that makes them wake up and realise what they are doing now is not right or sustainable.

To quote An Inspector Calls: "We don't live alone. We are members of one body. We are responsible for each other. And I tell you that the time will soon come when, if men will not learn that lesson, then they will be taught it in fire and blood and anguish. Good night."
For at least 9 to 10 years I've harboured a similar view (ever since Trump refused to say that he'd accept the result of the 2016 election if he lost): that the only way the US is getting to a much or even moderately better place is through internal, bloody conflict that rips the country apart from the inside and permanently - one would hope - burns a reckoning right into the country's collective consciousness like a cattle prod to the backside. I would normally hesitate to go right for the jugular and say 'Civil War 2', but now I really can't see any other way out of this hole they've dug themselves in the long or even medium-term. This has been building for decades and one quick glance at US history shows us widespread violence is gonna explode outward one way or another. It's a matter of when, not if at this point.

Whatever happens, it ain't gonna be pretty and Trump and his flying monkeys are actively & openly pouring napalm and gunpowder onto a already raging refinery inferno. That is their entire modius operandi, they live for moments like this where they can repeatedly torch the Reichstag and blame everyone else for it when they were the ones that lit the flames, fanned them, lit and and threw in a box of oily rags and tossed in a keg of gunpowder just to be absolutely sure.

Yep. The US is cooked. Was a slow roast, but it's cooked.

America has always had a strain of violence in its politics (must admit I found people on both sides saying violence has no place are perhaps lacking in an understanding of their own political history!) and maybe it felt similarly febrile in the 60s when you had a variety of political assassinations. But right now it feels like there's something very sick in the soul of America at the moment and this violence is going to escalate in all sorts of ways. Very very grim.
It's either due to willful ignorance, a lack of education or simply not knowing any better. Or a combo of all three, which is more a little worrying, but sadly tracks with what we see on a regular basis. Just with presidents alone, 4 have been assassinated since the nation's founding - Lincoln in 1865, James A. Garfield in 1881, William McKinley in 1901 and JFK in 1963 - and there have been countless other attempts on other presidents aside from on Trump himself last year, the first of these unsuccessful attempts was on Andrew Jackson in 1835. Yeah, it goes back that far. Arguably the most serious failed attempt was on Reagan in 1981.

Simply put, the US's political history has been steeped in blood and violence for much of it's existence and for one to assert that violence has no place at all is at best ignorant of their own history or is at worst partaking in history revisionism to suit their own ends. Of course, I'm not advocating for political violence, of course not. I'm merely stating historical fact, something Trump, his goons and every fascist leader that's ever lived treat as if it were tatamount to treason.
 
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brad465

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It was all across the fascist social space. Look at what Orban was saying. None of them were saying that when it was Democrat politicians getting murdered in their beds.

Very very dangerous times.

As for how the world sees the US at the minute, British Airways have a sale on. The fares they are charging to New York for travel next month are as low as I've seen them in probably the last ten years.
The world cup next year will be interesting, how many football fans globally will travel to the US at the moment? As it's hosted across three countries, the matches in Canada and Mexico could easily show a strong contrast in attendance vs US matches.
 

dgl

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The question is, was it a Republican like when Trump got grazed. Good way to sow discourse is to shoot someone and blame the other side.
 

Cloud Strife

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I would normally hesitate to go right for the jugular and say 'Civil War 2', but now I really can't see any other way out of this hole they've dug themselves in the long or even medium-term. This has been building for decades and one quick glance at US history shows us widespread violence is gonna explode outward one way or another. It's a matter of when, not if at this point.

I can't see much of a way out of this mess either. It's got to the point where violence is becoming such a routine part of everyday life there that it's simply going to explode at some point, and with guns easily accessible, it's not difficult to see a situation emerge where a radical Democrat encourages minorities to arm themselves to the teeth. What happens if places like Philadelphia suddenly become home to a large and heavily armed African-American population who can and will buy assault rifles to protect themselves against the federal government?

But right now it feels like there's something very sick in the soul of America at the moment and this violence is going to escalate in all sorts of ways. Very very grim.

I think the worst thing of all is that there's a large group of people who openly want things to explode. It's not just MAGA, there's plenty of people on the left who are supporting violence as a means to end the tyranny of Republican rule too. For me, it's a matter of time before the real radical left comes to power in places with gun control, and they will abolish restrictions on gun ownership as a way to protect places like Chicago against the federal government. Right now, Illinois and California have fairly strict gun control laws, but what happens if they decide to throw those laws in the bin?

It might not happen yet while Russia is still a massive problem, but I can easily see post-Ukraine Russia and China investing a large amount of resources into making America burn. It's really not difficult to do so, not least the fact that many people are guilty of taking things at face value on social media.
 

brad465

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I think the worst thing of all is that there's a large group of people who openly want things to explode. It's not just MAGA, there's plenty of people on the left who are supporting violence as a means to end the tyranny of Republican rule too. For me, it's a matter of time before the real radical left comes to power in places with gun control, and they will abolish restrictions on gun ownership as a way to protect places like Chicago against the federal government. Right now, Illinois and California have fairly strict gun control laws, but what happens if they decide to throw those laws in the bin?

It might not happen yet while Russia is still a massive problem, but I can easily see post-Ukraine Russia and China investing a large amount of resources into making America burn. It's really not difficult to do so, not least the fact that many people are guilty of taking things at face value on social media.
A second US civil war would by definition be WWIII. There is no way outside powers would stay out of it. Also, if the US implodes into such violence, prepare for a market crash and economic crisis that makes The Great Depression look like a bad business quarter.
 

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