Show railcard immediately - what are the rules?

[matchmaker]

I guess we'll be waiting for a very, very long time if we'd like Loganair style customer service from the railway, sadly.

No Tunnocks Caramel Wafer, then?

 

[reb0118]

Five minutes is totally within the reasonable time to count as "when asked".

What if your stop was less than 5 minutes away?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What if your stop was less than 5 minutes away?

De minimis non curat lex.

 

[AlterEgo]

What if your stop was less than 5 minutes away?

Well they'll be leaving you then, won't they?

 

[Krokodil]

Well they'll be leaving you then, won't they?

You wouldn't believe how many passengers think that the words "I'm just getting off here" somehow exempt them from the need to purchase a ticket.

 

[Starmill]

You wouldn't believe how many passengers think that the words "I'm just getting off here" somehow exempt them from the need to purchase a ticket.

This is why, of course, revenue staff are always needed. Many such dodgy people are well aware that the guard isn't going to leave the train with them. The better thing by far is to keep them out in the first place.

 

[AlterEgo]

You wouldn't believe how many passengers think that the words "I'm just getting off here" somehow exempt them from the need to purchase a ticket.

I imagine it's very common. But what is a guard going to do? They are now gone, and no longer your problem.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I imagine it's very common. But what is a guard going to do? They are now gone, and no longer your problem.

I've seen a ScotRail guard (a fairly slight, short woman) chase a fare dodger off the train, out of the station and down the street in such circumstances...they're made of sterner stuff up there!

 

[Krokodil]

I imagine it's very common. But what is a guard going to do? They are now gone, and no longer your problem.

Oh I've a number of tricks up my sleeve. Particularly where there's the odd minute of slack in the schedule. Starting to inspect while waiting time at a station is a favourite of mine:

"Tickets please"
"Oh, is it all right if I just go to the next stop?"
"Yeah, is that a single or return?"
"Er - got no money"
"What are you doing on here then? Off you get"

Spotting one who evaded on the way out trying to board your return working is fun too.

I'm working a school train in the morning. Local door operation at the origin station to get me ahead of the game.

 

[fandroid]

Generally speaking, what gives companies / organisations the advantage in these situations is that they know that the vast majority of people are not legally trained or aware of the countless specifics of law. For instance, if a RPI goes straight for a penalty fare without considering the circumstances, there's a strong argument for refusing to accept the penalty fare, as it will force the RPI to write down the exact version of events. If the RPI refuses to write down the events exactly as they happened, then they're already in a legal quagmire that they might not be able to get themselves out of easily.

Can a passenger "refuse" to accept a Penalty Fare? After all that is exactly what the OP thought they were doing in another very similar recent case. https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...providing-correct-ticket-and-railpass.291711/
It doesn't look as if the RPI in that case did anything more than record the information they thought necessary to issue the PFN. Had their TOC expected them to "write down the exact version of events"? It seems as if the TOC simply went into automatic "unpaid Penalty Fare" chasing mode.

 

[styles]

You can refuse to take the paperwork for a penalty fare, but the penalty fare will still exist and be payable/appealable/whatever you want to do.

 

[Cantab26]

De minimis non curat lex.

This doesn’t mean what you appear to think it means so trotting it out in this way isn’t much use to anyone.

Can a passenger "refuse" to accept a Penalty Fare?

No, it’s a standalone statutory obligation which does not depend on any agreement or acceptance by the passenger.

 

[ainsworth74]

Can a passenger "refuse" to accept a Penalty Fare? After all that is exactly what the OP thought they were doing in another very similar recent case.

You can refuse to provide details though that's opening up to a criminal prosecution under RoRA as you do have a legal duty to provide name and address when asked. Though whether the BTP would attend to deal with someone is an open question. This is one of those sorts of scenarios where the real scoundrels who are totally non-cooperative get away with things that the more obliging people don't.

Obviously if you've provided details then not accepting the piece of paper is irrelevant the PF still stands.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This doesn’t mean what you appear to think it means so trotting it out in this way isn’t much use to anyone.

In a legal sense no (of course that's your area) but what happens if someone is about to get off a train is a trifle compared to the majority of ticket checks which occur well before the passenger is about to get off the train. That's what I mean. That it's reasonable to take a short time to find one's railcard isn't in any way affected by there being very occasional cases where it might be needed quicker or where it'd be let off provided a ticket was produced and the inspector was not suspicious.

 

[LickeyIncliner]

The app would have no way of knowing if it was connected to the internet while not open.
As far as I know the railcard app doesn't do anything in the background.

Once you open the railcard it's there for 72 hours.

That matches my experience. The only times the railcard app has failed to show my card have been when I hadn't opened the app for at least several days and I had no internet access at the time. Simply having had the device connected to the internet is clearly not sufficient.

I've also had the panic-inducing issue where the app shows an out-of-date card first, but that seems to have been fixed, presumably in an update to the app itself.

 

[Hadders]

Discussion about whether fare evasion should be decriminalised has been split into a separate thread:

Discussion About Whether Fare Evasion Should be Decriminalised

Mod Note - split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/show-railcard-immediately-what-are-the-rules.291760/page-5#post-7463730 You can refuse to provide details though that's opening up to a criminal prosecution under RoRA as you do have a legal duty to provide name and address when asked...

www.railforums.co.uk