TfW to Bristol

[zwk500]

The only slight issue might how long the service would take from say Swansea or even Cardiff to Bristol, if it does call at every station on the way. But I suppose if you are going direct to BRI then you won't use it.

The 'Burns stations' services would be separate, these services have stopping patterns comparable to existing fastest options between Swansea and Cardiff, and between Cardiff and Bristol.

 

[Brubulus]

The 'Burns stations' services would be separate, these services have stopping patterns comparable to existing fastest options between Swansea and Cardiff, and between Cardiff and Bristol.

So this is in addition to existing services between Swansea and Cardiff, not extensions of the Swanline. From what I remember, there are no long-term plans from TFW for more fast trains from Cardiff to Bristol, but instead that there will be 1 or 2tph to the "Burns" stations, alongside 2tph GWR. Unless that plan has now changed such that there will be a fast to Swansea, 2tph GWR and the Burns services.

 

[tigermonstera]

So this is in addition to existing services between Swansea and Cardiff, not extensions of the Swanline. From what I remember, there are no long-term plans from TFW for more fast trains from Cardiff to Bristol, but instead that there will be 1 or 2tph to the "Burns" stations, alongside 2tph GWR. Unless that plan has now changed such that there will be a fast to Swansea, 2tph GWR and the Burns services.

I believe most of the services will be an extension of existing West Wales services:

The service will be broadly 2-hourly, with 9 services each way per day. Two will start from Cardiff in the morning but all the others will be through services between West Wales and Bristol. All bar two of the through services will be achieved by combining the new Cardiff-Bristol portions with existing West Wales services at Cardiff Central. Two through trains each way will be entirely new services between Cardiff and Carmarthen (filling existing gaps in the standard pattern timetable), then extending to/from Milford Haven or Fishguard Harbour in place of existing services.

 

[Brubulus]

I believe most of the services will be an extension of existing West Wales services:

So they're extending Swanline to Bristol.

 

[JonathanH]

So they're extending Swanline to Bristol.

There are some existing faster Cardiff terminators from West Wales in the hours when Manchester services start at Cardiff, which aren't Swanline services.

 

[sd0733]

So they're extending Swanline to Bristol.

Itll be more trains like these from Milford/Fishguard

Realtime Trains | 1B44 1400 Milford Haven to Cardiff Central | 08/09/2025

Real-time train running information for 1B44 1400 departure from Milford Haven to Cardiff Central on 08/09/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

That's just an example but will be the likely stopping pattern west of Cardiff. Lots of those turns go to Canton before heading back so will mean less additional units will be required.

 

[hatifhafi3]

Anyone notices the news - it looks tfW will be running 9 services per day to Bristol Temple Meads (7 from West Wales and 2 from Cardiff), wondering will there be any capacity across Severn Tunnel and will that change significantly to current GWR timetable?

Looks like TfW’s 9 daily services to Bristol Temple Meads are due from 2026 – 7 from West Wales and 2 from Cardiff. They’ll slot in alongside GWR trains, so you should see more options across the Severn Tunnel. Capacity there is always a squeeze, but these extra runs are planned as additions rather than replacements.

 

[Brubulus]

There are some existing faster Cardiff terminators from West Wales in the hours when Manchester services start at Cardiff, which aren't Swanline services.

From what I understand it's a case of these trains effectively being "in the shadow" of MK4 services then, which prevents it from ever going above 1tp2h . The long term solution for Swansea-Bristol is to extend a GWR service, both of which will likely run fast.

 

[John R]

In terms of capacity, anything above and beyond the rammed 2-3 car GWR Portsmouth - Cardiff services will bring a joyous relief!

Are you forgetting that most hours GWR also runs a 5 car IET between Cardiff and Bristol Temple Meads?

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If they can only run 2 coaches, would it be better not to run the TfW service, and just rely on the existing GWR services? It must depend a bit on where the TfW service comes in the timetable. If it goes out immediately after a GWR service, then a short train may be sufficient. It isn't really TfW's role to provide capacity on the Bristol to Newport route.

Why shouldn’t it be the Welsh Govt’s role to provide adequate services between its capital city and the principle city just across the border?

 

[zwk500]

wondering will there be any capacity across Severn Tunnel

Worth pointing out the capacity issue isn't *really* the tunnel itself (it does cause a bit of a bump in the graph so it's not nothing). The crunch is either conflicting moves at Severn tunnel Junction, patchway, or Bristol Parkway, or getting a slow freight up the bank. Oh my word does sending a freight into Patchway Pilning loops burn capacity up.

and will that change significantly to current GWR timetable?

No, the idea of these services is that both current and future GWR services are accounted for (there might be small changes, but not significant rewrites).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2025 ==

Itll be more trains like these from Milford/Fishguard

Realtime Trains | 1B44 1400 Milford Haven to Cardiff Central | 08/09/2025

Real-time train running information for 1B44 1400 departure from Milford Haven to Cardiff Central on 08/09/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

That's just an example but will be the likely stopping pattern west of Cardiff. Lots of those turns go to Canton before heading back so will mean less additional units will be required.

This.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2025 ==

Why shouldn’t it be the Welsh Govt’s role to provide adequate services between its capital city and the principle city just across the border?

Indeed. Bristol-Cardiff are now a very closely linked city pair, and providing services from Swansea through to Bristol links the 4 major Severnside settlements. Running it through to West Wales also helps provide somewhat remote areas a link into Bristol's transport links to the wider country and world, which with XC and the airport are probably better than Cardiff's.

 

[lachlan]

I'm surprised at the negativity on this thread- more options through the tunnel has to be a good thing. The existing services from GWR are often three cars anyway, so any extra capacity is welcome.

Good to see an extra service at Stapleton road too - changing at Filton isn't a very fun experience.

 

[vicbury]

Are you forgetting that most hours GWR also runs a 5 car IET between Cardiff and Bristol Temple Meads?

Nope, I'm remembering that it's the Portsmouth services that provide connections to Chepstow / Lydney at Severn Tunnel Junction, and I'm sick of them resembling the Central Line at peak times.

 

[Caaardiff]

From what I hear this service will be an extension of the Pembroke Dock - Cardiff swanline stopping service, which may not actually be an attractive proposition for many travellers, if for example, it would still be quicker to get a fast service from Swansea - Cardiff and connect to GWR there.
From a time saving perspective it would probably be better to use to Milford Haven/Fishguard main stations only service, of which there are currently:
- Milford Haven - Cardiff - x6, departing 0554, 1200, 1400, 1655, 1800, 2038,
- Fishguard Harbour - Cardiff - x2 departing 1600 & 2146, with others just going to Carmarthen but could be extended
The journey time of both is approx 2h45mins.
Most of these services have layover time in Cardiff/Canton Depot of at least 1 hour, so would make fleet usage more efficient by keeping them off Depot during the day.

There are currently x7 Pembroke Dock - Cardiff services with journey time of approx 3hr30 mins, with 10-15 minute layover at Cardiff Central before returning, so no slack in the schedules.

It would be interesting to see what connection options this service would open up. It could boost tourism to West Wales for people from Bristol/South East Wales having direct links to the West, and vice versa opens up direct links to central Bristol from West Wales as well as connections to the Southwest.

 

[Anonymous10]

From what I hear this service will be an extension of the Pembroke Dock - Cardiff swanline stopping service, which may not actually be an attractive proposition for many travellers, if for example, it would still be quicker to get a fast service from Swansea - Cardiff and connect to GWR there.
From a time saving perspective it would probably be better to use to Milford Haven/Fishguard main stations only service, of which there are currently:
- Milford Haven - Cardiff - x6, departing 0554, 1200, 1400, 1655, 1800, 2038,
- Fishguard Harbour - Cardiff - x2 departing 1600 & 2146, with others just going to Carmarthen but could be extended
The journey time of both is approx 2h45mins.
Most of these services have layover time in Cardiff/Canton Depot of at least 1 hour, so would make fleet usage more efficient by keeping them off Depot during the day.

There are currently x7 Pembroke Dock - Cardiff services with journey time of approx 3hr30 mins, with 10-15 minute layover at Cardiff Central before returning, so no slack in the schedules.

It would be interesting to see what connection options this service would open up. It could boost tourism to West Wales for people from Bristol/South East Wales having direct links to the West, and vice versa opens up direct links to central Bristol from West Wales as well as connections to the Southwest.

Its been stated up thread it would form from the milford haven and Fishguard services.

 

[John R]

Nope, I'm remembering that it's the Portsmouth services that provide connections to Chepstow / Lydney at Severn Tunnel Junction, and I'm sick of them resembling the Central Line at peak times.

But it hardly represents the full picture as to GWR provision on the route.

 

[Dr Day]

If this was an open access operator, they would have needed to prove the service wasn’t ‘abstractive’ of DfT revenue and that capacity existed. Do ORR get involved to the same extent with what could be seen as predatory revenue raiding? Or does the revenue end up at DfT anyway, even if TfW operates the service?

@Tazi Hupefi you responded on a similar question in relation to cross border operations on another thread. Is a ‘new’ service treated any differently?

 

[Jez]

TFW extendjng to Bristol Temple Meads will be great. It seems obvious to me that the 7 services that are to run from West Wales will be the ex Milford and Fishguard services that dont go to Manchester. With the 2 from Cardiff being during the 2 hours that there isnt a service from Carmarthen-Cardiff.

It will be great to have a direct service from West Wales/Swansea to Bristol Temple Meads. Back in the day something similar happened with Arriva Trains Wales alternating services between Manchester and Bristol/Portsmouth/Exeter etc. This came to an end in December 2005 when the hourly service from West Wales to Manchester started which ran hourly util December 2022. These Bristol services were as well as the half hourly Wessex Trains services to Bristol Temple Meads. Later on of course Wessex trains were taken over Great Western.

Given the units that form the Cardiff terminators spend an hour or so at Canton it may even be possible to do this with just 2 or 3 extra units.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

While this improvement is pretty small beer, at least it's something. The rail connectivity between Bristol and south Wales is appalling, particularly since the removal of the Severn tolls has led to a large increase in commuter traffic between southern Gwent and Bristol.

The Burns stations are meant to address some of this but, really major improvements to both capacity and frequency are required.

 

[Caaardiff]

Its been stated up thread it would form from the milford haven and Fishguard services.

Which is different to what I've heard, so it's all speculation at the moment.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Why shouldn’t it be the Welsh Govt’s role to provide adequate services between its capital city and the principle city just across the border?

Because the original carve-up of routes between the Greater Western (GWR) and Wales & Borders (TfW) franchises gave Severn Tunnel services to the former (plus an XC service towards Birmingham).
The difference recently has been the upgrade/resignalling of the route from Filton to Temple Meads, so there is unused capacity which TfW is bidding to use.
The DfT/WG will have to agree a new pattern of services on the route, with a different cost/revenue profile to the current one.
That's assuming TfW can actually afford to run the extra services.

 

[John R]

Because the original carve-up of routes between the Greater Western (GWR) and Wales & Borders (TfW) franchises gave Severn Tunnel services to the former (plus an XC service towards Birmingham).
The difference recently has been the upgrade/resignalling of the route from Filton to Temple Meads, so there is unused capacity which TfW is bidding to use.
The DfT/WG will have to agree a new pattern of services on the route, with a different cost/revenue profile to the current one.
That's assuming TfW can actually afford to run the extra services.

Well I would assume the Welsh Govt has already decided that it can afford to run the services.

And the original carve up was 30 years ago, so not unreasonable for the Welsh Govt to ask for the right to run services to Bristol.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Because the original carve-up of routes between the Greater Western (GWR) and Wales & Borders (TfW) franchises gave Severn Tunnel services to the former (plus an XC service towards Birmingham).
The difference recently has been the upgrade/resignalling of the route from Filton to Temple Meads, so there is unused capacity which TfW is bidding to use.
The DfT/WG will have to agree a new pattern of services on the route, with a different cost/revenue profile to the current one.
That's assuming TfW can actually afford to run the extra services.

I think we're back to the debate between the UK and Welsh Governments about the 'small TfW' whch was essentially the division that's existed since privatisation and the 'big TfW' that the WG has long argued for, which would run services deep into England, including Paddington.

I have no particular dog in that fight, but I think we're back in that territory as the dying Welsh Labour governement attempts to prove / pretend that it's delivered for Wales.

 

[tfw756rider]

Then TFW wants to expand their fleet:

Establishing a secure connection ...

Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales Ken Skates, said TfW’s current programme was taking the overall fleet from 270 trains vehicles in 2018 to more than 480 next year

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2025 ==

As someone who travels between Carmarthen/Cardiff Central and Filton Abbey Wood/Bristol Temple Meads, and likes 197s (despite their flaws and the proposed 2-car use), I'm looking forward to this!

 

[sefyllian]

Which is different to what I've heard, so it's all speculation at the moment.

The proposed calling patterns are in TfW’s application to the ORR:

Between Cardiff Central and Bristol Temple Meads, the calling pattern will be Newport, Severn Tunnel Junction, Filton Abbey Wood, and Stapleton Road. One train each way on weekdays and Saturday will additionally call at Bristol Parkway to retain traincrew route knowledge for this alternative terminating location in the event of the route to Bristol Temple Meads being unavailable due to planned engineering work or unplanned events.

West of Cardiff, the calling pattern will vary but will typically include Bridgend, Port Talbot Parkway, Neath, Swansea, Gowerton, Llanelli, Pembrey & Burry Port and Carmarthen, with most services originating from, or extending to, Fishguard Harbour or Milford Haven calling at all stations.

 

[Krokodil]

One train each way on weekdays and Saturday will additionally call at Bristol Parkway to retain traincrew route knowledge for this alternative terminating location in the event of the route to Bristol Temple Meads being unavailable due to planned engineering work or unplanned events.

How unusual to see recognition of the need for diversionary route knowledge. It's not that long since TfW cut route knowledge via Bescot and via Stafford, while the inability to send trains into Manchester Victoria when Castlefield is disrupted means than passengers get dumped off in Warrington with poor onward connections for Manchester.

 

[stj]

Heard that if this goes ahead GWR wont be stopping at STJ anymore.Not sure if its correct.

 

[Jez]

Heard that if this goes ahead GWR wont be stopping at STJ anymore.Not sure if its correct.

Once TFW have a full half hourly service which I think is the long term plan when the new stations open i can understand GWR not calling at STJ. I think the Portsmouth's only call at peak time at STJ.

 

[The exile]

How unusual to see recognition of the need for diversionary route knowledge. It's not that long since TfW cut route knowledge via Bescot and via Stafford, while the inability to send trains into Manchester Victoria when Castlefield is disrupted means than passengers get dumped off in Warrington with poor onward connections for Manchester.

Effectively “just” learning two sides of a triangle is a rather different ball game!

 

[Annetts key]

Worth pointing out the capacity issue isn't *really* the tunnel itself (it does cause a bit of a bump in the graph so it's not nothing). The crunch is either conflicting moves at Severn tunnel Junction, patchway, or Bristol Parkway, or getting a slow freight up the bank. Oh my word does sending a freight into Patchway loops burn capacity up.

Patchway loops?
There are no loops at Patchway.

Do you mean the freight loops at Pilning?

Or do you mean the Patchway Chord line or Filton Chord line towards Filton West junction?

Or do you mean the loops at Stoke Gifford / Bristol Parkway?

Good signallers worked out years ago, that in most cases (assuming a suitable margin existed) giving a freight a clear run between Seven Tunnel Junction and Patchway Junction was far better than looping them at Pilning. Or vice versa.

But this does require the Welsh and English signallers to work together.

 

[zwk500]

Patchway loops?
There are no loops at Patchway.

Do you mean the freight loops at Pilning?

Or do you mean the Patchway Chord line or Filton Chord line towards Filton West junction?

Or do you mean the loops at Stoke Gifford / Bristol Parkway?

Good signallers worked out years ago, that in most cases (assuming a suitable margin existed) giving a freight a clear run between Seven Tunnel Junction and Patchway Junction was far better than looping them at Pilning. Or vice versa.

But this does require the Welsh and English signallers to work together.

Apologies, Pilning. 20mph Entry and Exit doesn't help with the steep grade as well.