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Probably going to be shot down here, but think it would be great from a pssenger point of view if TfL Overground took over the
Stratford - Meridian Water shuttles and the inner Lea Valley stations with Cheshunt terminators. At the moment there's a fares anomaly too to protect GA revenue. Then the Hertfords / B Stortford stoppers could skip some stations and gain time. And locally it's frustrating not having a train ( or bus!) service from Clapton to Tottenham Hale as we used to.
Probably going to be shot down here, but think it would be great from a pssenger point of view if TfL Overground took over the
Stratford - Meridian Water shuttles and the inner Lea Valley stations with Cheshunt terminators. At the moment there's a fares anomaly too to protect GA revenue. Then the Hertfords / B Stortford stoppers could skip some stations and gain time. And locally it's frustrating not having a train ( or bus!) service from Clapton to Tottenham Hale as we used to.
I can't see anything happening without CR2 to be bluntly honest. For as long as the WAML remains a 2-track railway the finite capacity will be prioritised for the more lucrative outer markets, and stations inside of Waltham Cross will continue receiving a bare bones welfare level service.
Actually it isn't. The peak time service is less intensive than before the pandemic, with no need to run anything via Seven Sisters any more. For the Cambridge evening peak only the 1713/1743/1813 stoppers and 1737/1807 fasts are 10 cars. When I use these there is always plenty of seats in the front unit. With peak time travel still well below pre pandemic levels, and new longer trains, there is plenty of spare capacity.
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I dug out an old book with the electrification around 1960, and there was apparently provision for lot more 4 tracking as the new towns (those post WW2 overspill developments) were expected to grow much bigger at the time. These locations are generally fairly obvious even today from the lattice masts that spanned the potential extra tracks (although some have been replaced)
Wasn't complete 4 tracking, but was 4 tracks between (and including) pairs of stations.
I have done a lot of research on East Anglia in the Modernisation era and I'm not convinced by this. What is the source please?
Harlow was one of the first New Towns and preceded the Chenford electrification scheme which was completed in 1960. The new 4 platform stations at Harlow Town and Broxbourne were part of this.
It is important to remember that in 1960 what we now call the West Anglia Main Line was a key freight artery, particularly for coal traffic. There were 4 tracks south of Ponders End, and freight loops at Broxbourne, Roydon, Harlow Mill and Spellbrook. The freight trains, which mostly finished in 1966, were why Clapton Junction-Cheshunt wasn't electrified until 1969.
I suspect that "the lattice masts that spanned the potential extra tracks" are actually where the goods loops were located.
I dug out an old book with the electrification around 1960, and there was apparently provision for lot more 4 tracking as the new towns (those post WW2 overspill developments) were expected to grow much bigger at the time. These locations are generally fairly obvious even today from the lattice masts that spanned the potential extra tracks (although some have been replaced)
Wasn't complete 4 tracking, but was 4 tracks between (and including) pairs of stations. The idea being fast train could overtake whilst slower one was between the two stations that it was stopping at.
Of course these days electric trains accelerate much faster, so possibly couldn't overtake a stopper calling at two stations, and the fast train be sufficiently far ahead not to delay the stopper.
I was going to say much the same. The line was electrified much later than the rest of ‘inner’ Anglia, and the extra lines (some of which are still there!) in places south of Cheshunt were effectively long coal sidings.
It’s particularly frustrating - prior to the trains being introduced pretty much everyone was saying keep to 2+2 -we thought we had seen the last of the awful 3+2 configuration. It’s so disappointing that something so obviously a retrograde and stupid idea was signed off and now money has to be spent retrofitting the interior. The 745s and 755s in contrast were obviously excellent trains
It’s particularly frustrating - prior to the trains being introduced pretty much everyone was saying keep to 2+2 -we thought we had seen the last of the awful 3+2 configuration. It’s so disappointing that something so obviously a retrograde and stupid idea was signed off and now money has to be spent retrofitting the interior. The 745s and 755s in contrast were obviously excellent trains
We have to remember the trains were ordered in different times where seats into London was the pressing need, unfortunately GA are now stuck with what they have. If they were to order now, I suspect they'd order 25 745s with the same spec interior so they are genuinely interchangeable and less 720s.
It’s particularly frustrating - prior to the trains being introduced pretty much everyone was saying keep to 2+2 -we thought we had seen the last of the awful 3+2 configuration.
The class 720s were ordered before the pandemic, mainly as replacements for classes 317 and 321, which were 3+2 seating. A class 720 with 2+2 seating would not have had enough capacity for the Greater Anglia pre pandemic peak time traffic.
I think they would have ordered one more unit, to the Norwich specification, if they had known that they would not get the timetable acceleration that would enable 2tph to/from Norwich to be delivered with 8 trains instead of 9. 5 more units would be a 25% increase in class 745 fleet costs, so, no, Greater Anglia would not have done that.
Actually it isn't. The peak time service is less intensive than before the pandemic, with no need to run anything via Seven Sisters any more. For the Cambridge evening peak only the 1713/1743/1813 stoppers and 1737/1807 fasts are 10 cars. When I use these there is always plenty of seats in the front unit. With peak time travel still well below pre pandemic levels, and new longer trains, there is plenty of spare capacity.
It is correct the peak extras via Seven Sisters no longer run, but that was only 5 trains in 3hrs, and fact they had to run via Seven Sisters (making them even slower than the usual slow Hertford East via Tott Hale service) indicates that the line via Tott Hale is effectively at capacity if we are talking about number of services. Don't agree that there is plenty of spare capacity.
I agree there is capacity for current number of passengers for the reasons you give. But as per the other thread the Lea Valley service is far from ideal, with many stations having poor overall frequencies and some station pairs having very poor frequencies indeed. If the Lea Valley could support a metro style service like the parallel Seven Sisters route no doubt it would be justified and would induce increased usage at the Lea Valley local stations.
It is correct the peak extras via Seven Sisters no longer run, but that was only 5 trains in 3hrs, and fact they had to run via Seven Sisters (making them even slower than the usual slow Hertford East via Tott Hale service) indicates that the line via Tott Hale is effectively at capacity if we are talking about number of services. Don't agree that there is plenty of spare capacity.
I agree there is capacity for current number of passengers for the reasons you give. But as per the other thread the Lea Valley service is far from ideal, with many stations having poor overall frequencies and some station pairs having very poor frequencies indeed. If the Lea Valley could support a metro style service like the parallel Seven Sisters route no doubt it would be justified and would induce increased usage at the Lea Valley local stations.
Reinstating 4 tracks at least as far as Ponders end would enable such a service, and the space is present. If Crossrail 2 was to go ahead it would be an absolute no-brainer.
Actually it isn't. The peak time service is less intensive than before the pandemic, with no need to run anything via Seven Sisters any more. For the Cambridge evening peak only the 1713/1743/1813 stoppers and 1737/1807 fasts are 10 cars. When I use these there is always plenty of seats in the front unit. With peak time travel still well below pre pandemic levels, and new longer trains, there is plenty of spare capacity.
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I have done a lot of research on East Anglia in the Modernisation era and I'm not convinced by this. What is the source please?
Harlow was one of the first New Towns and preceded the Chenford electrification scheme which was completed in 1960. The new 4 platform stations at Harlow Town and Broxbourne were part of this.
It is important to remember that in 1960 what we now call the West Anglia Main Line was a key freight artery, particularly for coal traffic. There were 4 tracks south of Ponders End, and freight loops at Broxbourne, Roydon, Harlow Mill and Spellbrook. The freight trains, which mostly finished in 1966, were why Clapton Junction-Cheshunt wasn't electrified until 1969.
I suspect that "the lattice masts that spanned the potential extra tracks" are actually where the goods loops were located.
Why is it so difficult to add 4 tracks between Tottenham Hale and Brimsdown, at least.
I know that after Brimsdown there are level crossings, and after tottenham Hale you would need to join the tracks up with existing lines (e.g Stratford)
Or why not just have some Tottenham Hale terminators too?
Probably going to be shot down here, but think it would be great from a pssenger point of view if TfL Overground took over the
Stratford - Meridian Water shuttles and the inner Lea Valley stations with Cheshunt terminators. At the moment there's a fares anomaly too to protect GA revenue. Then the Hertfords / B Stortford stoppers could skip some stations and gain time. And locally it's frustrating not having a train ( or bus!) service from Clapton to Tottenham Hale as we used to.
Why is it so difficult to add 4 tracks between Tottenham Hale and Brimsdown, at least.
I know that after Brimsdown there are level crossings, and after tottenham Hale you would need to join the tracks up with existing lines (e.g Stratford)
Or why not just have some Tottenham Hale terminators too?
Honestly I think to sort out the WAML and Southbury Loop/Enfield Branch, the following method could be adopted.
WAML:
- Build 2 extra tracks on WAML between Broxbourne and Meridian Water, then an extra 4th track from there to Lea Bridge.
- Build a fly under at Broxbourne to enable up trains from Cheshunt direction to access platform 4
- Construct 2 new bay platforms at Stratford (with a new bridge over HS1)
- Then use these tracks to run at least 4tph between Broxbourne and Stratford calling at all stations (effectively a doubling of the current Meridian Water shuttle and extension northwards)
- Open a new station at Picketts Lock, serving the eastern Edmonton area
This would then allow the Bishops Stortford and Hertford East services to be sped up along the Lea Valley, only calling at Broxbourne, Waltham Cross (only on the Hertford Services), Cheshunt, Tottenham Hale and either Liv Street/Stratford
This would allow for (maybe) an additional 1-2 tph on the WAML towards Cambridge
SOUTHBURY LOOP:
- New reversing siding installed south of Seven Sisters Station platform, on the west side of the line.
- Use this new turn back facility for an additional 2tph north of Seven Sisters, to both Enfield town and Cheshunt respectively
- Passangers on a terminator looking for onward southbound connections could either wait for a Liverpool Street train, or catch the Victoria Line.
-This would provide an off peak frequency of 20 minutes on both branches.
I believe the 20 min frequency on both is planned as part of LO improvements anyway (but actually to Liverpool St)
I feel like especially places like Stoke Newington would have very high usage with a better service.
As for the quadding work, to me the immediate easiest thing is to add the fourth platform at Tottenham Hale. This might also more shuttles north, but also remove potential conflicts with the Stratford services, and maybe allow some overtaking/dwelling for northbound faster services to flight behind. I don't know if the Meridian Water shuttle is really worth growing though.
As many have said, full length trains need to be full on this line before this type of investment. And priority should be the inner stations, far more population and development
Chicken and egg - the outer people are 'captive' to the train and largely 2tph is reasonably received for people 'in the sticks' - - - providing a better service for the many more Londoners, who have many more modal options, might see more uptake.
Nobody living in Harlow who works in eg the West End or City isn't taking the existing service, and probably content with it. Whereas many living in NE London might bus or drive or cycle to a Victoria line station, for instance.
So I agree with your point in principle, but not in terms of the real growth potential.
My Proposal was to allow more trains on both the Southbury Loop and WAML locals. People living in Tottenham and Enfield have both lines either side, so those on the Southbury Loop could realistically use either if 3tph was too low for them. Enfield Town of course has Enfield Chase, which only leaves Bush Hill Park on its own (but it’s served by the frequent 217 and 231 buses from the A10, the 192 and the sparse 377)
With more lines available on the WAML, those people who live at the outer stations may be able to benefit from faster services, and slightly more of them too.
Sending the extra 2tph from Seven Sisters all the way into Liverpool Street is also a good idea too. It’s a shame that the inner local stations (ie Ponders End) wouldn’t be able to retain their Liverpool Street service with my proposal though, as there would be no space on the line
Perhaps with this idea, as the Hertford services would be sped up, maybe a stop at Clapton could be added?
That would require a very large pot of money, which does not exist. Almost everything in your list is dreamworld stuff that isn't going to happen any time soon.
This is absolutely right. There is still plenty of spare capacity because peak time commuter flows are still 20-25% down on pre pandemic levels and at the same time capacity has increased via the introduction of the class 720s.
The Meridian Water shuttle runs on what is effectively a long siding from Lea Bridge, so that, at any time, there can only be one train north of Lea Bridge. Future expansion depends on development of the land around the station. If it ever gets to the point where the Meridian Water shuttle needs more trains, then the long Lea Bridge siding might get turned into something more grand, and that might include the possibility of going to Picketts Lock too, but not any further north.
Yes but equally the suppressed demand is probably greater than some further out. The investment in overground has seen huge increases in passenger numbers. Somewhere like Brimsdown or Ponders End has a much bigger population within a 15 minute walk than say Stansted Mountfitchet or Newport and probably more potential for passenger growth.
Somewhere like Brimsdown or Ponders End has a much bigger population within a 15 minute walk than say Stansted Mountfitchet or Newport and probably more potential for passenger growth.
This isn't correct. Almost nobody lives on the east side of the line near Brimsdown and Ponders End. To the west, anywhere more than 10 minutes walk from Brimsdown and Ponders End is already going to be walking to Southbury, which will be nearer.
This isn't correct. Almost nobody lives on the east side of the line near Brimsdown and Ponders End. To the west, anywhere more than 10 minutes walk from Brimsdown and Ponders End is already going to be walking to Southbury, which will be nearer.
Except that Brimsdown is relatively distant from both Southbury and Turkey Street, on the Southbury Loop line!
Brimsdown also serves a large industrial estate, and at rush hours there are many workers travelling to and from the station, as well as city workers. NOBODY who lives near Brimsdown or in the Carterhatch area (where there is no station for some odd reason) is walking to Southbury or Turkey Street. The service on that line is acctually worse, and the journey takes twice as long.
Except that Brimsdown is relatively distant from both Southbury and Turkey Street, on the Southbury Loop line!
Brimsdown also serves a large industrial estate, and at rush hours there are many workers travelling to and from the station, as well as city workers. NOBODY who lives near Brimsdown or in the Carterhatch area (where there is no station for some odd reason) is walking to Southbury or Turkey Street. The service on that line is acctually worse, and the journey takes twice as long.
The reason why people prefer the Enfield Lock/Brimsdown/Ponders End is because it wizzes you to Tottenham Hale in under 10 minutes, (as the line completely skips Edmonton)
The Southbury loop services stop everywhere! And they are literally the same frequency. In my opinion, the stops at Northumberland Park on off peak and Peak GA trains (which aren’t used that well - I’ve seen them and on several occasions I’ve been one of 3 people that got off the train) should be transferred to another station where the demand is higher.
May I also mention that neither Brimsdown or Ponders End have a direct service to Stratford?
Before anyone on here posts about how NP would lose its northbound service. The amount of people travelling northwards from Northumberland Park is practically nill. Plus residents who live in the NP area also have White Hart Lane, which has a 4tph service.
So directing passengers onto the Southbury Loop here acctually makes more sense, as the service is BETTER there and it is closer to London, so not that much of a hassle (people can change at Seven Sisters for the Vic line as opposed to Tottenham Hale)
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Not true at ALL. Hertford stoppers which are only 5 cars at weekends are absolutely rammed by the time they get into Tottenham Hale. Yet I see northbound Cambridge North trains at Tottenham Hale that are 10 coaches long and are nearly empty.
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The reason why people prefer the Enfield Lock/Brimsdown/Ponders End is because it wizzes you to Tottenham Hale in under 10 minutes, (as the line completely skips Edmonton)
The Southbury loop services stop everywhere! And they are literally the same frequency. In my opinion, the stops at Northumberland Park on off peak and Peak GA trains (which aren’t used that well - I’ve seen them and on several occasions I’ve been one of 3 people that got off the train) should be transferred to another station where the demand is higher.
May I also mention that neither Brimsdown or Ponders End have a direct service to Stratford?
Before anyone on here posts about how NP would lose its northbound service. The amount of people travelling northwards from Northumberland Park is practically nill. Plus residents who live in the NP area also have White Hart Lane, which has a 4tph service.
So directing passengers onto the Southbury Loop here acctually makes more sense, as the service is BETTER there and it is closer to London, so not that much of a hassle (people can change at Seven Sisters for the Vic line as opposed to Tottenham Hale)
The line from Bury Street Junction to Cheshunt regained its passenger service in 1960 when the line was electrified. I don't know why there was no station at Carterhatch. Rectifying that now would cost a fair bit, but nowhere near as much as 4 tracking in the Lea Valley, and difficult to justify when Southbury and Turkey Street are less than 2 miles apart. That's closer together than Cambridge-Cambridge North for example.
Overcrowded weekend 5 car trains don't need any new track or new train paths, all they need is to be 10 cars, and there are plenty of class 720s sitting in sidings at weekends.
Yet. Crossrail 2 requires turning much of that commercial land into housing to fund the work. While you certainly could do some of that sooner, eg quad track to Meridan Water with passive provision for XR2 platform lengths and crowds, would the housing unlocked then not be around to support XR2? That would then need to find more land for housing as a source of funding, such as north of Harlow, outside the green belt.
Yet. Crossrail 2 requires turning much of that commercial land into housing to fund the work. While you certainly could do some of that sooner, eg quad track to Meridan Water with passive provision for XR2 platform lengths and crowds, would the housing unlocked then not be around to support XR2?
Between Broxbourne and Bishops Stortford the line is on the flood plain, there is very little land near the line suitable for new housing. North of Bishops Stortford the traffic will be looking towards Stansted Airport and Cambridge, not London.
Would a station near Tottenham Hale on the Gospel Oak to Barking Line, near the ferry lane estate (exactly at the point where the W4 bus terminates) be feasible?
I agree that the Hertfords definitely can't southbound, the Stansted Express is 3 minutes behind and they're often late. However, in theory they could stop northbound as there's 7 minutes behind it (and the next train is 2Txx which stops anyway). Saves everyone having to go to Lea Bridge.
There absolutely should be a bus, yes. Whether it's via St James St or via Stamford Hill, it works.
Would a station near Tottenham Hale on the Gospel Oak to Barking Line, near the ferry lane estate (exactly at the point where the W4 bus terminates) be feasible?
It's close enough to South Tottenham and Blackhorse Road that I doubt it would have huge usage. Also Tottenham Hale has a fine service to Blackhorse Road anyway for GoBLin services.
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