March for Railway Jobs

[lookingforit35]

Quite a lot said about this subject so far, and I'm certainly not passing any comment about the politics of the decision.

But in a cheeky moment, I wondered how many of those present drove home in their British built cars? Or whether the numerous family decisions on this type of purchase come down less to patriotism (ie protecting UK jobs) and more to personal choice/most competitive whole life costs/badge snobbery/design features etc...?

I'll duck down now as this is clearly an emotive subject, but will leave with the suggestion that sometimes it's easy to talk the talk, but less enticing to walk the walk.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-14260274

 

[exile]

Strange to see Beckett there when the rules which govern these decisions were part of EU agreements endorsed by the previous administration.

 

[Jordeh]

I'm increasingly tired of hearing about this especially with living in Derby/Nottingham and reading lots of railway news.

I can't see how the coalition government had any alternative but to stick to the criteria set out by the seemingly blameless Labour party. They can't simply award it to Bombardier because they're partly based in Britain otherwise it'd just end up in a European Court and Siemens would inevitably win seeing as the government hadn't stuck to the criteria (which is fair enough).

Personally I think people should direct more their anger towards the Labour party for setting the criteria and the EU for its laws on the subject. The coalition could not go about changing the criteria without restarting the process which would further delay the whole train procurement process by around 5 years.

Regardless of the criteria and various EU laws concerning the subject though, it's totally right that Siemens won the contract seeing as it was concluded that it was a cheaper and all together better product which is precisely what the railway industry should be buying into. That's not to say the Bombardier train was bad, but it simply wasn't good enough and can't rely on winning just because it'd be put together in Derby. British manufacturers just can't expect to hold the government to ransom like that. It's completely unsustainable to buy trains (or anything else for that matter) just because it comes from Britain when there are better alternatives for sale abroad.

I do wish the whole matter would be put to rest and I wonder when it finally will be, the local BBC news seem to be giving it far too much airtime.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Quite a lot said about this subject so far, and I'm certainly not passing any comment about the politics of the decision.

But in a cheeky moment, I wondered how many of those present drove home in their British built cars? Or whether the numerous family decisions on this type of purchase come down less to patriotism (ie protecting UK jobs) and more to personal choice/most competitive whole life costs/badge snobbery/design features etc...?

I'll duck down now as this is clearly an emotive subject, but will leave with the suggestion that sometimes it's easy to talk the talk, but less enticing to walk the walk.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-14260274

I live in London (although i was born in Derby) so wasn't in Derby for the march but we own two British built cars and fine cars they are too. We don't buy goods and services on the basis of their origin (with the exception of certain groceries) but if the British made product is good we will buy it!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm increasingly tired of hearing about this especially with living in Derby/Nottingham and reading lots of railway news.

I can't see how the coalition government had any alternative but to stick to the criteria set out by the seemingly blameless Labour party. They can't simply award it to Bombardier because they're partly based in Britain otherwise it'd just end up in a European Court and Siemens would inevitably win seeing as the government hadn't stuck to the criteria (which is fair enough).

Personally I think people should direct more their anger towards the Labour party for setting the criteria and the EU for its laws on the subject. The coalition could not go about changing the criteria without restarting the process which would further delay the whole train procurement process by around 5 years.

Regardless of the criteria and various EU laws concerning the subject though, it's totally right that Siemens won the contract seeing as it was concluded that it was a cheaper and all together better product which is precisely what the railway industry should be buying into. That's not to say the Bombardier train was bad, but it simply wasn't good enough and can't rely on winning just because it'd be put together in Derby. British manufacturers just can't expect to hold the government to ransom like that. It's completely unsustainable to buy trains (or anything else for that matter) just because it comes from Britain when there are better alternatives for sale abroad.

I do wish the whole matter would be put to rest and I wonder when it finally will be, the local BBC news seem to be giving it far too much airtime.

How can you criticise the BBC for giving it too much air time!! For those that are affected by the loss of the contract (and the possible complete closure of the plant) this means more to them than anything else! Bombardier is a major employer in the area and 1,400 people are losing their jobs. If you were one of them i think your final paragraph would have been very different!

 

[jha4ceb]

Strange to see Beckett there when the rules which govern these decisions were part of EU agreements endorsed by the previous administration.

I can't see how the coalition government had any alternative but to stick to the criteria set out by the seemingly blameless Labour party.

As I understand it, the criteria only require that the government picks the bid which offers the "best value". The coalition interpreted this in a very narrow way -- just in terms of who offered the lowest price -- but in fact the rules allow for a much wider interpretation of "value". For instance, it allows consideration of the impact on regional economies!

So I think this "previous administration" talk is a distraction from the incompetence of the present government.

 

[Jordeh]

How can you criticise the BBC for giving it too much air time!! For those that are affected by the loss of the contract (and the possible complete closure of the plant) this means more to them than anything else! Bombardier is a major employer in the area and 1,400 people are losing their jobs. If you were one of them i think your final paragraph would have been very different!

For 1400 people losing their jobs, a mention of it almost every night on the local news for about 3 weeks is excessive and not an enormous figure in the greater scheme of things. It is of course news worthy but in recent years, thousands of redundancies have been unfortunately quite commonplace across the East Midlands and none of these had remotely similar airtime. 800 of the people who lost their jobs were on short-term contracts anyway, something they usually fail to point out.

Let's also not forget the 2000 or so jobs created by the Siemens contract in the supply chain.

 

[passmore]

I'm increasingly tired of hearing about this especially with living in Derby/Nottingham and reading lots of railway news.

I can't see how the coalition government had any alternative but to stick to the criteria set out by the seemingly blameless Labour party. They can't simply award it to Bombardier because they're partly based in Britain otherwise it'd just end up in a European Court and Siemens would inevitably win seeing as the government hadn't stuck to the criteria (which is fair enough).

Personally I think people should direct more their anger towards the Labour party for setting the criteria and the EU for its laws on the subject. The coalition could not go about changing the criteria without restarting the process which would further delay the whole train procurement process by around 5 years.

Regardless of the criteria and various EU laws concerning the subject though, it's totally right that Siemens won the contract seeing as it was concluded that it was a cheaper and all together better product which is precisely what the railway industry should be buying into. That's not to say the Bombardier train was bad, but it simply wasn't good enough and can't rely on winning just because it'd be put together in Derby. British manufacturers just can't expect to hold the government to ransom like that. It's completely unsustainable to buy trains (or anything else for that matter) just because it comes from Britain when there are better alternatives for sale abroad.

I do wish the whole matter would be put to rest and I wonder when it finally will be, the local BBC news seem to be giving it far too much airtime.

I agree, I find this march insulting given the fact the deal has pretty much been done.

They should find much more productive causes to march about.

 

[starrymarkb]

Should they not be trying to build a better product then Siemens especially with rumours that BBD were struggling to come up with a compliant product...

 

[lookingforit35]

My point was that it's hard to shout about protecting UK jobs if for example you choose to buy a BMW/Merc/Renault/Fiat/Volvo etc which a great many folk do, including I am sure many of the thousands at the rally.

So perhaps people only want to be patriotic if it doesnt include their own personal choices being restricted?

I have no view on the merits or otherwise of the Thameslink bids from Bombardier, Siemens, Hitachi etc. But if I wanted to influence Government thinking by joining a "Buy British" campaign, I might look at my own choices closely before doing so.

 

[Lampshade]

My point was that it's hard to shout about protecting UK jobs if for example you choose to buy a BMW/Merc/Renault/Fiat/Volvo etc which a great many folk do, including I am sure many of the thousands at the rally.

Let's be honest though, very few cars (I mean specific models, not overall volume) are actually made here, aside from the obvious Nissan Qashqai, Peugeot 207, Vauxhall Astra and various prestige marques (which are hardly mass market).

 

[lookingforit35]

Let's be honest though, very few cars (I mean specific models, not overall volume) are actually made here, aside from the obvious Nissan Qashqai, Peugeot 207, Vauxhall Astra and various prestige marques (which are hardly mass market).

Toyota too (by coincidence in Derby). But that's kind of my point! There's enough cars listed to buy if you really believe in the "buy British" mantra. I'm being something of a devil's advocate of course, but I wouldnt of thought too many of the thousands protesting really considered this when they decided which car to purchase. It's a dirty word "hypocrisy" but it might just might be one to consider..............

 

[90019]

Toyota too (by coincidence in Derby). But that's kind of my point! There's enough cars listed to buy if you really believe in the "buy British" mantra. I'm being something of a devil's advocate of course, but I wouldnt of thought too many of the thousands protesting really considered this when they decided which car to purchase. It's a dirty word "hypocrisy" but it might just might be one to consider..............

Not to mention the Honda Civic, Jazz and CR-V which are built in Swindon.

 

[PinzaC55]

If it's a matter of politics people should blame the Tories for taking us into Europe and Labour for not taking us out. Also blame the Tories for privatising the railways and Labour for not renationalising them Blame the Liberals for supporting the current government. But most importantly since these were democratically elected governments blame yourselves for voting for them.

 

[lookingforit35]

Not to mention the Honda Civic, Jazz and CR-V which are built in Swindon.

Spot on! I wouldnt turn up to a rally, express my utter disgust and disbelief that the Government hasn't bought British, then head off home in my foreign car.

 

[ji459]

Should they not be trying to build a better product then Siemens especially with rumours that BBD were struggling to come up with a compliant product...

I agree!

The UK isn't the only market for new trains. How many contracts outside the UK have Bombardier bid for?

 

[ainsworth74]

The UK isn't the only market for new trains. How many contracts outside the UK have Bombardier bid for?

Plenty I would assume but they're unlikely to build them at the Derby plant because of difficulties of testing and transport. Our loading gauge is small so any stock built to a larger gauge would have to taken by road to a test facility somewhere in Europe, it all adds extra cost and time. Therefore Bombardier would build any contracts for overseas work at another plant.

 

[RichmondCommu]

For 1400 people losing their jobs, a mention of it almost every night on the local news for about 3 weeks is excessive and not an enormous figure in the greater scheme of things. It is of course news worthy but in recent years, thousands of redundancies have been unfortunately quite commonplace across the East Midlands and none of these had remotely similar airtime. 800 of the people who lost their jobs were on short-term contracts anyway, something they usually fail to point out.

Let's also not forget the 2000 or so jobs created by the Siemens contract in the supply chain.

Those staff may have been contractors but who is to know (on here at least) how long their contracts were for? The only reason they have gone is because its easier to get rid of them! No matter whether they were contractors or not they have still lost their jobs and still have bills to pay / families to support.

Secondly, 2,000 new supply chain jobs being created is absolute nonsense! Its an absolute certainty that very few new jobs if any will be created in this country as a result of the contract being awarded to Siemens. There may well be work for those currently employed but certainly nothing that requires people to be taken on. Why people are not able to understand this beggars belief. Its hardly rocket science.

The construction of new depots will not create new jobs in the construction industry. And maintenance staff in the main will be simply transferred from Hornsey.

If you require a further explanation please ask.

 

[lookingforit35]

Those staff may have been contractors but who is to know (on here at least) how long their contracts were for? The only reason they have gone is because its easier to get rid of them! No matter whether they were contractors or not they have still lost their jobs and still have bills to pay / families to support.

Secondly, 2,000 new supply chain jobs being created is absolute nonsense! Its an absolute certainty that very few new jobs if any will be created in this country as a result of the contract being awarded to Siemens. There may well be work for those currently employed but certainly nothing that requires people to be taken on. Why people are not able to understand this beggars belief. Its hardly rocket science.

The construction of new depots will not create new jobs in the construction industry. And maintenance staff in the main will be simply transferred from Hornsey.

If you require a further explanation please ask.

Meant totally respectfully, that wasnt the question asked in this thread. There's been massive debate about this whole subject elsewhere on this site, but I was merely asking if everyone that is campaigning in Derby today can truly have a clear conscience when they look at their own purchasing track record.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Meant totally respectfully, that wasnt the question asked in this thread. There's been massive debate about this whole subject elsewhere on this site, but I was merely asking if everyone that is campaigning in Derby today can truly have a clear conscience when they look at their own purchasing track record.

Well living in London (although born in Derby) i can't answer for them! From my own point of view my wife and i own two high quality cars which were built in the UK. However, in terms of say our tv's i have no idea where they were built. The kitchen appliances are a mixture of Miele, Bosch, AEG and Panasonic but in all fairness i'm not aware that "white" goods are made in this country. I would love to be corrected though!

 

[the sniper]

Let's be honest though, very few cars (I mean specific models, not overall volume) are actually made here, aside from the obvious Nissan Qashqai, Peugeot 207, Vauxhall Astra and various prestige marques (which are hardly mass market).

Peugeot 207's aren't built here unfortunately. Peugeot shut down their plant in Ryton near Coventry in 2007, when the production of the 206 came to an end. It was rather disgraceful imo, as the factory met quality and efficiency targets and was apparently one of the top Peugeot plants for meeting them. Peugeot got a grant from the EU though for a new factory in Slovakia, where people were presumably able to work for much less anyway, so the 207 is now built there instead...

Not to mention the Honda Civic, Jazz and CR-V which are built in Swindon.

Indeed. And no one has mentioned the UK's third largest producer of cars (output wise atleast), Mini.

 

[Lampshade]

Indeed. And no one has mentioned the UK's third largest producer of cars (output wise atleast), Mini.

Oh yes, I forgot about that German car with a French engine

The really annoying thing about lookingforit35's argument is that you can't counter it with any freedom of choice or quality of product argument. I was going to argue what's the point in buying a (Nissan Qashqai) just because it's British built, it's still Japanese owned (Doh!).

Of course it doesn't help that we've got no real motor industry anymore... oh wait. Ahh but I prefer a BMW to a Honda Accord... oh wait.

That said, the government should have acted in the national interest... oh wait

Therefore I just blame Margaret Thatcher

 

[RichmondCommu]

Oh yes, I forgot about that German car with a French engine

The really annoying thing about lookingforit35's argument is that you can't counter it with any freedom of choice or quality of product argument. I was going to argue what's the point in buying a (Nissan Qashqai) just because it's British built, it's still Japanese owned (Doh!).

Of course it doesn't help that we've got no real motor industry anymore... oh wait. Ahh but I prefer a BMW to a Honda Accord... oh wait.

That said, the government should have acted in the national interest... oh wait

Therefore I just blame Margaret Thatcher

Doh indeed! I don't think anyone on this forum would be stupid enough to suggest that the likes of BMW, Nissan, Toyota, Honda, Land Rover, Jaguar are British owned.

For the record my wife and i own a Mini and a Jaguar XF. I'm very much aware that their respective manfacturers are foreign owned but it makes me smile to think that they are built in the UK. Also for the record over the years i've owned various Saabs, Volvos, Audis, BMW's and Mercs but the XF is the best saloon i've driven. Yes i know this is a railway forum but this is evidence that British workers can produce a product that is worth buying.

 

[the sniper]

Oh yes, I forgot about that German car with a French engine

60% of the Mini Mk2's components are from British suppliers. Body pressing, sub assembly, body shell production and final assembly is all done in the UK. You're right that the petrol engine they use is designed by BMW & PSA, and parts are supplied by PSA, but the engines are constructed at BMW's Hams Hall engine plant, so even at this stage there is major British input.

To suggest that Mini Mk2's are solely German and French is just ridiculous.

On the rest of your post, the argument was that these people should be buying British made vehicles to support British jobs, who owns those companies providing those jobs is frankly irrelevant to the argument.

And I'd argue that the British motor industry is actually reasonably strong at the moment, thanks to foreign investment and organisation. Yes it's a shame that MG Rover died due to shambolic management, but at least other remnants of British Leyland are still doing well.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If it's a matter of politics people should blame the Tories for taking us into Europe and Labour for not taking us out. Also blame the Tories for privatising the railways and Labour for not renationalising them Blame the Liberals for supporting the current government. But most importantly since these were democratically elected governments blame yourselves for voting for them.

Supplementary to this, the British people voted in a referendum to join or not to join as part of European conjunction. Forget political parties, no-one forced me to vote the way that I did and I will be very annoyed to hear anyone say that the British voting public were unaware of what they were voting for, as this is an insult to their intelligence.

 

[GB]

Supplementary to this, the British people voted in a referendum to join or not to join as part of European conjunction. Forget political parties, no-one forced me to vote the way that I did and I will be very annoyed to hear anyone say that the British voting public were unaware of what they were voting for, as this is an insult to their intelligence.

Is it not a case of things have changed since the original EEC conception and the UKs entry in 1975 and the now current EU??

 

[OuterDistant]

Doh indeed! I don't think anyone on this forum would be stupid enough to suggest that the likes of BMW, Nissan, Toyota, Honda, Land Rover, Jaguar are British owned.

Ooh I dunno - there's still legions of people out there who think Ford is British

 

[starrymarkb]

I agree!

The UK isn't the only market for new trains. How many contracts outside the UK have Bombardier bid for?

They did bid for the IE intercity unit order, but offered 170s when IE wanted something more like a 175... Order went to Hyundai...

They also tried for NI railways but NIR prefered the CAF product...

 

[Old Timer]

Supplementary to this, the British people voted in a referendum to join or not to join as part of European conjunction. Forget political parties, no-one forced me to vote the way that I did and I will be very annoyed to hear anyone say that the British voting public were unaware of what they were voting for, as this is an insult to their intelligence.

Paul,
with respect, the Referendum in 1973 (?) Said NOTHING about Political and Monetary Union. It was all to do with entering a Common Market, and becoming a member of a trading block within which trading rules would be standardised and would be fair. The giveaway to what we voted for is in the name.

To see just how far the original purpose has progressed you only have to look at the renamings and the various Treaties and Charters to which both major Parties have signed up.

Nowadays we are the "European Union", well I for one NEVER voted for that nor have I ever given any electoral mandate for that.

The only referendum promised (on the European Union Reform Treaty (Treaty of Lisbon)) was of course immediately abandoned once Labour won the Election, and Brown WITHOUT ANY electoral mandate signed away British Soverneignity forever.

The only saving grace was that Mrs Thatcher stopped Major from signing up for the ERM, otherwise as a Country we would now be like Greece.

 

[PinzaC55]

Paul Sidorczuk said

Supplementary to this, the British people voted in a referendum to join or not to join as part of European conjunction. Forget political parties, no-one forced me to vote the way that I did and I will be very annoyed to hear anyone say that the British voting public were unaware of what they were voting for, as this is an insult to their intelligence.

If you asked a representative cross section of the British public who their MEP was, how many do you think would know?

 

[Lampshade]

If you asked a representative cross section of the British public who their MEP was, how many do you think would know?

It's multiple MEPs by region. One of 'my' MEPs is Nick Griffin for instance :roll: