Should we have a universal ID card?

[bahnause]

They don't do that now because there is no law or requirement to stop and ID unless the officer reasonably suspects you of being involved in a crime or certain other factors are at play. By making mandatory carry a legality this gives the police complete power to stop whoever they like and whenever they like. That is a police state and is not police by consent.

I've lived in two countries, where carrying ID was mandatory. In both of them the police didn't have the power to ask for ID without a reasonable suspicion of criminal activity. The power of the police does not change with mandatory ID. It is an entirely different issue.

 

[martin butler]

For the vast majority, even if it's not mandatory to carry an ID card, they will, a bit like having your driving licence in your wallet,
I think much of the unquiet towards ID cards is misplaced or mischief making

I was once stopped by police, because I bared a likeness to someone they were after, luckily I was able to confirm my identity on the spot, and so was able to carry on, with minimum delay, Had I have not had ID, I would have been detained, fingerprinted, DNA taken, and held whilst my identity was confirmed, which legally they can do. then released, and how long would that have taken?

But normally, I would support ID cards, but with the provision, that if you are not suspected of having committed a crime, then you be given time to provide proof of your identity, without having been deemed to have committed an offence.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But normally, I would support ID cards, but with the provision, that if you are not suspected of having committed a crime, then you be given time to provide proof of your identity, without having been deemed to have committed an offence.

If you are not suspected of committing a crime you should not be asked for ID by the Police. Full stop.

I have no issue with ID cards, after all I always carry my driving licence anyway just in case I need to prove my identity. I do have an issue with compulsory carry.

 

[sor]

Thought I'd post this here as an example of what ID cards could be useful for.

Chippie owner given ‘devastating’ £40,000 fine by Home office for allegedly illegal hire

Surrey chip shop staff left ‘terrified’ by immigration raid as ministers called on to lower penalties for small businesses

www.theguardian.com

A fish and chip shop owner has been handed a “devastating” £40,000 fine by the Home Office after hiring a man who had allegedly forged his identity, as ministers face calls to reduce the size of such penalties for small businesses amid a surge in enforcement.

In March, Home Office immigration officers stormed Big Fry Fish & Chips in Egham, Surrey, in a raid that left staff “terrified”. Officers took away a man, who was employed by the shop, on the alleged grounds that he did not have to right to work in the UK.

When the man was hired in early 2023, he provided the chippie with a national insurance number, proof of student loan payments and housing benefit receipts from the local council. He also provided a photocopy of his British passport and was paid via pay as you earn (PAYE) through HMRC.

The business did not see the original copy of the man’s passport, which its owner, Mark Sullivan, said was a “clerical error”.

In correspondence seen by the Guardian, the Home Office told Sullivan that “national insurance numbers, student loan payments and housing benefit receipts are not proof of an individual’s identity or right to work in the UK”.

How much easier and cheaper would it be if, as I've suggested before, the chippie owner could have input a share code or ID card number into a gov website / app and received the most accurate information and confirmation of right to work directly from the government?

 

[signed]

How much easier and cheaper would it be if, as I've suggested before, the chippie owner could have input a share code or ID card number into a gov website / app and received the most accurate information and confirmation of right to work directly from the government?

That exists already

eVisas: access and use your online immigration status

How to access and use an eVisa: set up a UKVI account, update your details and get a share code to prove your immigration status when you work, rent or travel.

www.gov.uk

You can get a share code to prove your immigration status to people such as employers or landlords, or when you travel.


You’ll need to give them your date of birth. You will not need to show them your eVisa.


The person who uses your share code will see some of your personal details. When you get your share code you’ll be told what they’ll see.


A share code lasts for 90 days. You can:

• use the share code as many times as you need before it expires
• get a new share code whenever you need one

It even has fallbacks when not able

Use the Employer Checking Service

Employer checking service (ECS): check your employee or potential employee's immigration employment status

www.gov.uk

Use the Employer Checking Service​

Use this service to ask the Home Office to check an employee’s or potential employee’s immigration status if they cannot show their documents or online immigration status.
This could be, for example, because:

• they have an outstanding appeal, review or application with the Home Office
• they arrived in the UK before 1988 and do not have documents to prove their immigration status or right to work
• they’re having technical issues getting a share code to prove their right to work
• you’re unable to use a digital service to check their right to work due to a technical issue

You must also ask the Home Office to check their status if they have:

• a non-digital Certificate of Application that says you need to ask the Home Office to check their right to work
• an Application Registration Card

You only need to use this service if you cannot check the applicant’s right to work online using their share code or check the applicant’s original documents.

 

[DustyBin]

How much easier and cheaper would it be if, as I've suggested before, the chippie owner could have input a share code or ID card number into a gov website / app and received the most accurate information and confirmation of right to work directly from the government?

That's exactly what they should have done!

Edit: Beaten to it!

 

[sor]

That exists already

eVisas: access and use your online immigration status

How to access and use an eVisa: set up a UKVI account, update your details and get a share code to prove your immigration status when you work, rent or travel.

www.gov.uk

That's exactly what they should have done!

Edit: Beaten to it!

Nope. If you read the article (or the bit I pasted) you'll see that the worker claimed to be a British citizen. That service is not applicable.

The "fallback" appears to be a service where the Home Office has to do manual checks and is not intended for use cases where the worker appears to have relevant documentation (as happened here, though the employer only saw a photocopy of a passport instead of making their own). That is not efficient and doesn't scale compared to a proper ID card system where accurate responses can be returned in seconds.

 

[AlterEgo]

We already have other ways to prove who you are. We have managed for decades without an ID card

yes, in the same way the country could have been said to have "managed" without
- sewage networks
- tarmacked roads
- railways
- the internet

There are substantial problems with people not having ID, and not just for the people so disenfranchised. If I know your name, DOB, and address, I could have some fun with that; in a year you might get a load of penalty fares and bailiffs to spend weeks sorting out, as well as trying to remove your criminal record.

 

[DustyBin]

Nope. If you read the article (or the bit I pasted) you'll see that the worker claimed to be a British citizen. That service is not applicable.

The "fallback" appears to be a service where the Home Office has to do manual checks and is not intended for use cases where the worker appears to have relevant documentation (as happened here, though the employer only saw a photocopy of a passport instead of making their own). That is not efficient and doesn't scale compared to a proper ID card system where accurate responses can be returned in seconds.

Sorry, I did read it but didn't join the dots!

As he claimed to be a British citizen, it will be the "clerical error" regarding the passport that's been the employers undoing. For what it's worth I do sympathise with them to an extent, but it's a core responsibility as an employer to know the rules.

Back to the point you're making, I don't disagree that it could make life easier for employers, but would we simply see fake IDs being used in such situations?

 

[brad465]

FT reporting the government are considering digital ID cards:

Keir Starmer considers digital ID rollout in bid to tackle illicit migration

Home Office to send messages following rise in number of people claiming asylum after visas expire

www.ft.com

Sir Keir Starmer is looking to roll out a digital ID programme to crack down on illegal working by irregular migrants and address French concerns that Britain’s labour market is a soft touch. The UK prime minister chaired a meeting of ministers on Tuesday to discuss further plans to tackle illicit migration, with a new focus on whether an extension of digital forms of ID could make a difference.

 

[Bevan Price]

My main proviso about ID cards is that if the Government wants us to have them, THEY should pay for them (from general taxation), rather than expect us to pay an additional personal tax to get one.

Also, will we be required to get someone to verify our identity - and who would that be ?
Clergy ? Police officer ? Magistrate ? I don't know any.
School teacher ? I doubt if any of my teachers are still alive.

 

[sor]

My main proviso about ID cards is that if the Government wants us to have them, THEY should pay for them (from general taxation), rather than expect us to pay an additional personal tax to get one.

Also, will we be required to get someone to verify our identity - and who would that be ?
Clergy ? Police officer ? Magistrate ? I don't know any.
School teacher ? I doubt if any of my teachers are still alive.

I agree that the list of suitable professions is stuck in the 1950s, though it's a problem you'll already have today if you are applying for a first adult passport or your first photocard driving licence (which includes those reaching 70 and who still have a paper licence). For a lot of people, "member of a professional body" is the easiest route. Though I do wonder why limited company directors still qualify given the spate of fake companies that have been set up

One would hope they'd expand it to allow any British citizen without an obviously conflicting criminal record (eg fraud) to countersign.

 

[davews]

It will do absolutely nothing to stop the boat arrivals...... No doubt this will be mainly through a phone app, hopefully there will be a physical card option as I don't carry my phone with me all the time and have no desire to do so.

 

[styles]

I agree that the list of suitable professions is stuck in the 1950s, though it's a problem you'll already have today if you are applying for a first adult passport or your first photocard driving licence (which includes those reaching 70 and who still have a paper licence). For a lot of people, "member of a professional body" is the easiest route. Though I do wonder why limited company directors still qualify given the spate of fake companies that have been set up

One would hope they'd expand it to allow any British citizen without an obviously conflicting criminal record (eg fraud) to countersign.

Also anyone can be a company director (well, except those disqualified). Any random adult can pay £50 and set up a company.

 

[bleeder4]

Also anyone can be a company director (well, except those disqualified). Any random adult can pay £50 and set up a company.

True, although there are more hoops to jump through now that company directors and Persons of Significant Control have to verify their identity with gov.uk first.

 

[styles]

True, although there are more hoops to jump through now that company directors and Persons of Significant Control have to verify their identity with gov.uk first.

Sure they have to prove identity, but beyond that, the only real restriction on becoming a company director is not being disqualified by means of unfit conduct as a director, bankruptcy, or fraud. Probably every adult on my street is eligible to become a company director.

 

[Bantamzen]

My main proviso about ID cards is that if the Government wants us to have them, THEY should pay for them (from general taxation), rather than expect us to pay an additional personal tax to get one.

Also, will we be required to get someone to verify our identity - and who would that be ?
Clergy ? Police officer ? Magistrate ? I don't know any.
School teacher ? I doubt if any of my teachers are still alive.

I think the days of having someone from a professional body to countersign ID will be coming to an end soon, as more and more people have uploaded digital IDs when applying for passports, driving licences etc. Once people have a National Insurance Number and have used the Government Gateway to set up an account, this will likely be the main source for verifying people going forward. And even now the list of allowed countersigners has expanded significnatly:

Confirm someone’s identity online for a passport application

Who can confirm someone’s identity online for a passport application and what they need to do

www.gov.uk

(Mods, as the list is quite comprehensive I have not quoted it here)

 

[bleeder4]

I think the days of having someone from a professional body to countersign ID will be coming to an end soon, as more and more people have uploaded digital IDs when applying for passports, driving licences etc. Once people have a National Insurance Number and have used the Government Gateway to set up an account, this will likely be the main source for verifying people going forward. And even now the list of allowed countersigners has expanded significnatly:

Confirm someone’s identity online for a passport application

Who can confirm someone’s identity online for a passport application and what they need to do

www.gov.uk

(Mods, as the list is quite comprehensive I have not quoted it here)

I'm veering slightly off-topic here, so I apologise, but this is General Chat after all. The recent Online Safety Act now requires adult websites to verify ID. You even have to verify ID on sites like Ann Summers if you're browsing sex toys etc. But each of these adult websites is free to choose whichever ID verification scheme they like. So of course they're all using a different one. It's a mess. Why not update the Bill to say that these websites should just use the existing gov.uk system of identity verification? That way people shopping for adult services only need to upload their ID once, rather than individually to every such website they visit?

 

[CharlieSpotted]

I think the days of having someone from a professional body to countersign ID will be coming to an end soon, as more and more people have uploaded digital IDs when applying for passports, driving licences etc. Once people have a National Insurance Number and have used the Government Gateway to set up an account, this will likely be the main source for verifying people going forward. And even now the list of allowed countersigners has expanded significnatly:

Confirm someone’s identity online for a passport application

Who can confirm someone’s identity online for a passport application and what they need to do

www.gov.uk

(Mods, as the list is quite comprehensive I have not quoted it here)

This new list is interesting!

• director, manager or personnel officer of a VAT-registered company
  
  
• manager or personnel officer of a limited company

How do we define manager for this purpose? Does this literally mean that you can just ask your line manager, your boss, provided you work at a VAT-registered/limited company?

That would make this so much easier for so many people, I suspect.

 

[mac]

I've lived 63 years without a ID card so how will my life improve with one

 

[WelshBluebird]

You even have to verify ID on sites like Ann Summers if you're browsing sex toys etc.

No you don't. I agree its a mess, but I can literally go and do that right now without needing to verify anything. It's actually an interesting loop hole as I don't think the act covers the purchase of physical goods (which are covered by existing rules).

I've lived 63 years without a ID card so how will my life improve with one

I take it you've not had to open a bank account, start a new job, buy a house, start a new rental contract etc etc in the last few years? Each of those things require ID and if you don't have a passport (which isnt cheap) or a driving license (which lots of people simply can't get due to medical reasons) the you are stuffed. Even with those things you quite often end up also having to get hold of paper bank statements or utility bills too (which is becoming harder as things move paperless). It's just a huge faff that an official government ID that is cheap / free and available to everyone would solve.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I take it you've not had to open a bank account, start a new job, buy a house, start a new rental contract etc etc in the last few years? Each of those things require ID and if you don't have a passport (which isnt cheap) or a driving license (which lots of people simply can't get due to medical reasons) the you are stuffed. Even with those things you quite often end up also having to get hold of paper bank statements or utility bills too (which is becoming harder as things move paperless). It's just a huge faff that an official government ID that is cheap / free and available to everyone would solve.

Of course if a driving licence is acceptable ID for Government matters, which it is (and it's verifiable online, too), the easy way to solve this problem is to allow any non-driver over 16 (say) to obtain a driving licence with no driving entitlement on it (perhaps it could be blue to differentiate from the pink full and green provisional licences). This is how it is done in a number of US states and it would be cheap and not require anyone who already drives to have anything they don't already have and use.

The only thing it doesn't do is state citizenship/immigration status, but it wouldn't seem exactly complex to add it.

 

[mac]

WelshBlueBird are you saying that if I had a ID card I could then do away with everything else if so how will the government arrange for me to travel around the world without a passport

 

[Bletchleyite]

WelshBlueBird are you saying that if I had a ID card I could then do away with everything else if so how will the government arrange for me to travel around the world without a passport

European ID cards are accepted for travel within the EU and have passport biometric features to enable this. We could join a treaty allowing this.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Within the next couple of years, we should start to see passport/border reforms on an international level. I've been through a few locations now in different countries where they've trialled just walking through a border area and they've used facial recognition - everyone just walks through a corridor without stopping, with border officers presumably on hand to stop anyone by exception. So much easier and faster.

Not hard to believe that, eventually, a passport would be phased out, and you'd connect/provide your digital identity to the relevant country as part of checking in to a flight or applying for a visa.

One such provider - no content as such to paste here, just the video.

Travizory FaceLane™

www.travizory.com

 

[WelshBluebird]

Of course if a driving licence is acceptable ID for Government matters, which it is (and it's verifiable online, too), the easy way to solve this problem is to allow any non-driver over 16 (say) to obtain a driving licence with no driving entitlement on it (perhaps it could be blue to differentiate from the pink full and green provisional licences). This is how it is done in a number of US states and it would be cheap and not require anyone who already drives to have anything they don't already have and use.

The only thing it doesn't do is state citizenship/immigration status, but it wouldn't seem exactly complex to add it.

I think you've (or someone else) has made that suggestion previously and it does sound like a decent solution as long as the DVLA wouldn't be overloaded due to it. I'm not so bothered by what the solution is as long as there is one that is as inexpensive as possible because I just don't see the current situation has tenable going forward.

WelshBlueBird are you saying that if I had a ID card I could then do away with everything else if so how will the government arrange for me to travel around the world without a passport

I wasn't talking about travel, more the things you have to currently use a mixture of types of ID that were never intended for that purpose. Why on earth should someone need a travel document (i.e. a passport) or a driving license in order to start a new job, or rent a flat, or buy a house, or open a bank account?

However as another poster has said, for some other countries yes they do essentially allow some level of travel with an ID card.

 

[brad465]

Of course if a driving licence is acceptable ID for Government matters, which it is (and it's verifiable online, too), the easy way to solve this problem is to allow any non-driver over 16 (say) to obtain a driving licence with no driving entitlement on it (perhaps it could be blue to differentiate from the pink full and green provisional licences). This is how it is done in a number of US states and it would be cheap and not require anyone who already drives to have anything they don't already have and use.

The only thing it doesn't do is state citizenship/immigration status, but it wouldn't seem exactly complex to add it.

I had a provisional driving licence for a few years before actually learning to drive, solely because it was easier to carry round than a passport (and much less costly if I lost it). Now I do the same with my full driving licence (cycling, train travel, the odd bus journey and car-sharing with colleagues on work trips do almost all my travelling needs). If we had a national ID card scheme, and several jobs didn't have a driving licence requirement attached to them (even those that could arguably be done without one), I'd have never done any of the above.

 

[mac]

So basically it should be voluntary the one's who need one for banks and suchlike can have one and people like me can give it a miss

 

[martin butler]

Like it or not, clearly, we are now well into the digital age, and it not if, but when, physical ID such as passports, driving licences etc, will be replaced by digital ones, on your phone, on whatever device you may be using, Passport control, could just as easily become face scanners, and a reader you would download vises etc onto your phone, just scan in, when you book your flight, and when you enter the passport control area, this for the bulk of people would certainly speed things up, and customs staff would only need to get involved when someone's id flags up an error
Things like driving licences, etc, again, how many of us carry our phones on us, 99 per cent? we already have such things as digital tickets, railcards etc,

 

[styles]

I avoid digital railcards and digital tickets to be honest. They're useless if a phone breaks or runs out of battery. Obviously plastic cards and paper tickets can wear etc as well but I've run out of phone battery before, never sufficiently damaged a paper ticket or Railcard though.

I'd rather have both a physical and digital card, personally.