Future of the 350/2s

[Tazi Hupefi]

The Bee network concept is not relevant here. If it comes to fruition, they will be tendered as a concession and GBR is able to bid to operate them with whatever stock they think will help them to win. However that is a long way off.

The 350/2 stuff hasn't changed - nothing has concluded and no decisions have been made. Still very much up for consideration. It is a slow time of year in the railway. Very little stuff like this gets done in August because of annual leave, bank holidays, major works like Stockport and politicians / decision makers are largely absent.

 

[D365]

My guess would be that is what the new EMUs that are part of Northern's new trains tender would be used for.

This is correct, hence why the first ’Lot’ is 12 x 3 car EMU with ETCS fitted.

 

[Mamorin]

Thanks for confirming I was right that Northern don't need the 350/2s for anything to do with TRU.

I would love for Clinnick to be wrong about Northern not taking on the 350/2s, he's been bang on the money in the past so I have no reason to doubt him.

While its a shame Northern are not taking on the 350/2s, its nice that Porterbrook is not going down the scrap route with the 350/2s and is trying to find a home for the 350/2s.

 

[tfw756rider]

While its a shame Northern are not taking on the 350/2s

We don't know for definite whether they are or aren't

The 350/2 stuff hasn't changed - nothing has concluded and no decisions have been made. Still very much up for consideration.

Meaning that taking them on could be considered, but nothing has been decided?

 

[Nym]

This is correct, hence why the first ’Lot’ is 12 x 3 car EMU with ETCS fitted.

But is it specified to have the correct ETCS fitted?

 

[Sutton in Ant]

Have you actually read what has been written above? Do you understand how commercial confidentiality works?

Clinnick is a journalist - he is not going to be told about commercially confidential items. End of.

I have read this and Northern Railway have confirmed that they are not interested in taking on the 350/2s. You are talking about commercially confidential items.

 

[Brubulus]

I have read this and Northern Railway have confirmed that they are not interested in taking on the 350/2s. You are talking about commercially confidential items.

"No commitment" and "not interested" are different things, the former is simply stating that they have not agreed to lease the trains yet.

 

[Mamorin]

I was about to mention the Modern Railways article but I got beat to it.

Honestly I feel the best choice is for everybody to calm down and just wait until like December and see if we hear anything then.

TIL that the 323s do not have any alarm in the cabs for when the call for aid button is pressed.

I'm guessing the 350/2s have an alarm in the cabs for when the call for aid button is pressed.

So from a passenger safety point of view the 350/2s would be better than the 323s.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

"No commitment" and "not interested" are different things, the former is simply stating that they have not agreed to lease the trains yet.

I would say that by the time, if Northern Railway were to come around and say that they would like these units? They may have been taken by another rail operator.

I was about to mention the Modern Railways article but I got beat to it.

Honestly I feel the best choice is for everybody to calm down and just wait until like December and see if we hear anything then.

TIL that the 323s do not have any alarm in the cabs for when the call for aid button is pressed.

I'm guessing the 350/2s have an alarm in the cabs for when the call for aid button is pressed.

So from a passenger safety point of view the 350/2s would be better than the 323s.

I totally understand where you're coming from, and I totally understand your reasoning for why you would think that 350/2s would be a good match for Northern Rail. But the words and the vibes I have been reading are that Northern Rail are not going to be taking on the 350/2s. I think it is a good idea to wait till December, but by then? Another rail operator may have taken them on?

 

[AlastairFraser]

I would say that by the time, if Northern Railway were to come around and say that they would like these units? They may have been taken by another rail operator.

What other operator would want them? Most other EMU operators have made major orders recently, and SWR are considering converting some of their Desiros for a bi-mode battery project to replace the 158/159s, but they already have surplus 450s on the current timetable.

 

[Wolfie]

I have read this and Northern Railway have confirmed that they are not interested in taking on the 350/2s. You are talking about commercially confidential items. This proves your theory as complete nonsense and a load of diatribe. End of.

Hmmm.... Sorry but a basic command of the English language says that "no commitment" is far from the "no interest" that you assert.

 

[Mamorin]

Speaking of other operators, in the latest issue of Modern Railways there is an article about the 730/2s. The article briefly mentions the 350/2s and also briefly mentions that GTR might be looking for more EMUs in the future.

So could GTR be a future home for the 350/2s?

I know that is an odd idea, but I can't see any more Electrostars becoming available anytime soon.

 

[Chiltern006]

Move them to GWR then stick their Electrostars onto GTR

I’ll get my coat

 

[BerkshireRails]

Move them to GWR then stick their Electrostars onto GTR

I’ll get my coat

GWR has 42 387s, of which 12 are for the Heathrow Express service and the remaining 30 units are Great Western Railway services. Heathrow Express open access contract will expire in 2028 unless renewed. That would allow 12 ETCS 387s to go to GTR routes.

 

[737egnh]

Maybe between now and August next year the ROSCO will spend time retrofitting the units working with the likes of ‘Onboard Systems’ individuals from said TOC, then come August 26 conversion training will commence for said Crew. I mean just who knows

 

[D365]

Maybe between now and August next year the ROSCO will spend time retrofitting the units working with the likes of ‘Onboard Systems’ individuals from said TOC, then come August 26 conversion training will commence for said Crew. I mean just who knows

Fitment of ETCS, or are you inferring a certain operator’s ”Digital Trains” mods?

 

[737egnh]

Fitment of ETCS, or are you inferring a certain operator’s ”Digital Trains” mods?

I would be referring to the ‘Digital Train’ mod side of things, plus interior refresh of course.

 

[sh24]

No commitment is exactly the kind of thing a press office say when there are conversations happening but nothing firm or concrete is in place. Something might happen, it also may not.

 

[stevieinselby]

I have read this and Northern Railway have confirmed that they are not interested in taking on the 350/2s.

That is absolutely not what it says. It would be absolutely nonsensical for Northern to be evaluating whether trains from a design that is long out of production would be suitable for their routes unless they were interested in taking those specific trains. That doesn't mean that they will take them – that will depend on the outcome of the trial and then any negotiations with the Rosco – all the article states is that they haven't committed to taking them at this stage, so we will have to wait to find out.

 

[tfw756rider]

Maybe between now and August next year the ROSCO will spend time retrofitting the units working with the likes of ‘Onboard Systems’ individuals from said TOC, then come August 26 conversion training will commence for said Crew. I mean just who knows

I would be referring to the ‘Digital Train’ mod side of things, plus interior refresh of course.

Ooh, maybe

No commitment is exactly the kind of thing a press office say when there are conversations happening but nothing firm or concrete is in place. Something might happen, it also may not.

Exactly!

 

[Mamorin]

Honestly I'm just hoping the 350/2s have a home lined up post December, It would suck to see the 350/2s become like the 379s did.

To me it always sucks to see non-life expired EMUs off lease and sat in storage.

 

[Bertie the bus]

That is absolutely not what it says. It would be absolutely nonsensical for Northern to be evaluating whether trains from a design that is long out of production would be suitable for their routes unless they were interested in taking those specific trains. That doesn't mean that they will take them – that will depend on the outcome of the trial and then any negotiations with the Rosco – all the article states is that they haven't committed to taking them at this stage, so we will have to wait to find out.

If you take the quotes in that article at face value then Northern aren't evaluating them. Porterbrook are pitching them and Northern are prepared to listen but are committing to nothing. That isn't the same as Northern are evaluating them.

 

[YSTrains]

What about ScotRail? The Class 318s and 320s are getting quite old.

 

[Mamorin]

What about ScotRail? The Class 318s and 320s are getting quite old.

ScotRail have a tender out for new trains which will replace the 318s and 320s as well as other older stock.

 

[deltic08]

As straight electrics I cannot see use for the 350/2s over the 323s in Northern, but as BEMUs with a range of 50 miles between charges the routes are endless replacing DMUs.
Manchester Airport-Windermere.
Manchester Airport-Barrow.
Manchester-Hazel Grove-Buxton.
Rochdale-Victoria-Southport replacing 769s
Victoria-Huddersfield now before TRU is finished
Leeds-Victoria via Calder Valley.
Leeds Hebden Bridge via Brighouse when TRU electrification is complete Leeds-Mirfield.
Leeds-York via Harrogate.
Leeds-York via Garforth now before TRU finished.
Leeds-Doncaster-Sheffield stoppers eliminating DMU on Adwick-Sheffield shuttle.
Leeds-Skipton-Lancaster.
Leeds-Skpiton-Ribblehead.
Leeds-Wakefield W-Sheffield stopper.
Leeds-Wakefield W-Featherstone.
Can anybody think of anymore?
Porterbrook need to get on and produce a battery electric 350/2 and test it. The DMUs released could replace elderly 150s and possibly 156s for scrapping.

 

[Nym]

As straight electrics I cannot see use for the 350/2s over the 323s in Northern, but as BEMUs with a range of 50 miles between charges the routes are endless replacing DMUs.
Manchester Airport-Windermere.
Manchester Airport-Barrow.
Manchester-Hazel Grove-Buxton.
Rochdale-Victoria-Southport replacing 769s
Victoria-Huddersfield now before TRU is finished
Leeds-Victoria via Calder Valley.
Leeds Hebden Bridge via Brighouse when TRU electrification is complete Leeds-Mirfield.
Leeds-York via Harrogate.
Leeds-York via Garforth now before TRU finished.
Leeds-Doncaster-Sheffield stoppers eliminating DMU on Adwick-Sheffield shuttle.
Leeds-Skipton-Lancaster.
Leeds-Skpiton-Ribblehead.
Leeds-Wakefield W-Sheffield stopper.
Leeds-Wakefield W-Featherstone.
Can anybody think of anymore?
Porterbrook need to get on and produce a battery electric 350/2 and test it. The DMUs released could replace elderly 150s and possibly 156s for scrapping.

There's an extremely long list of reasons why a 350/2 could, but shouldn't be converted to a Battery-Electric multiple unit. Mostly around the configuration of the existing dual voltage equipment, and the lack of underframe space available in giant blocks.
It would be rather challenging to make the changes to build it.

Although the 769 was a rather large challenge that was to a degree overcome, the work needed to do so was very much under-estimated at the time.

If you want batteries on an MU, just buy one built for it in the first place.

 

[deltic08]

There's an extremely long list of reasons why a 350/2 could, but shouldn't be converted to a Battery-Electric multiple unit. Mostly around the configuration of the existing dual voltage equipment, and the lack of underframe space available in giant blocks.
It would be rather challenging to make the changes to build it.

Although the 769 was a rather large challenge that was to a degree overcome, the work needed to do so was very much under-estimated at the time.

If you want batteries on an MU, just buy one built for it in the first place.

I thought the suggestion came from Porterbrook in the first place. Surely they would not have suggested it if it wasn't possible practically and financially? There is no sign of BEMUs being manufactured for at least 5 years. Porterbrook could knock one out in less than that as they only need converting. 350/2s have at least 20 years life left in them. They could be interchangeable with 331s and 333s in West Yorkshire on the Airdale corridor and much nicer to ride in than 150s on other routes when refurbed.

 

[Topological]

Since this is speculative discussion, what stops the batteries being placed in a "power pack" form somewhere that is currently seating. Yes, we all want more seats, but if a 4-car 350/2 becomes 3.5 car, it is still more than a 3-car 195 or a 3-car 323.

 

[D365]

I thought the suggestion came from Porterbrook in the first place.

Porterbrook has had a lot of ’ideas’ to adapt their off-leased EMUs for self-powered applications. That doesn’t mean that all/any of them are practicable.

 

[Nym]

Porterbrook has had a lot of ’ideas’ to adapt their off-leased EMUs for self-powered applications. That doesn’t mean that all/any of them are practicable.

Beat me to it.

Ideas are one thing, practicable ideas are another...