Future of the 350/2s

[The exile]

But they were built in THE NINETIES and ordered PRE PRIVATISATION . Only third world countries would still have trains running from that long ago!

I assume that was meant ironically. If not - have a quick trip to Munich and its S-Bahn - still employing some of the same class of units with which the system was launched in 1972 (albeit now only rhe final build lot dating from , the nineties).

 

[Wolfie]

But the fact is they have been brought in and are therefore on lease with contractual obligations. Northern can't just drop them back to the ROSCO and tell them they have changed their mind. This is why I am so surprised the discussion is even being had!

Perhaps the fact that the 323s and 350/2s are both owned by Porterbrook may have some bearing.

I wonder if some of the 323s, if this happens, will end up being used for freight and the rest for spares?

 

[The_Train]

That depends on the contract they signed as they might be an early return clause in the contract which allows Northern to lets say give 1 month notice on the withdrawal of the units.

There is a tender out at the moment for the refurbishment of the ex WMT units. That is a contract due to run until April 2027. I've not seen any suggestion that this has been shelved so that is probably an indicator

 

[BerkshireRails]

There is a tender out at the moment for the refurbishment of the ex WMT units. That is a contract due to run until April 2027. I've not seen any suggestion that this has been shelved so that is probably an indicator

I wouldn't be surprised if the refurbishment is being done as part of the required C4 and C6 Overhauls.

 

[Class15]

But they were built in THE NINETIES and ordered PRE PRIVATISATION . Only third world countries would still have trains running from that long ago!

Is this sarcastic? I can’t really tell.

 

[BerkshireRails]

But they were built in THE NINETIES and ordered PRE PRIVATISATION . Only third world countries would still have trains running from that long ago!

Let's remember we still had pre-WWII Trains running in regular service on the Island Line up until 2021. So being from the 1990s isn't an issue, it just means we should start to consider replacing them.

 

[Transilien]

Is this sarcastic? I can’t really tell.

Yeah

 

[Kite159]

Perhaps the fact that the 323s and 350/2s are both owned by Porterbrook may have some bearing.

I wonder if some of the 323s, if this happens, will end up being used for freight and the rest for spares?

No doubt if Northern do take on the 350s as replacements for the 323s, then the only destination for the 323s is a one way trip to Newport, following other BR Era electric units.

 

[MichaelTrains]

I doubt if Northern will have a lot of say in it.

Why?

Surely the DfT can’t expect Northetn to take battered and filthy units?

 

[Snow1964]

Surely the DfT can’t expect Northetn to take battered and filthy units?

I suspect the lease company doesn't have to take 350s back from previous user below a certain quality standard either. Almost certainly clauses about returning them to a specific condition (or paying for LeaseCo to do it).

Once they reach a certain age (and don't know what specific clauses say), can often go off lease in scrap condition, but I suspect these are do young for that to apply.

 

[BerkshireRails]

I suspect the lease company doesn't have to take them back from previous user below a certain quality standard either. Almost certainly clauses about returning them to a specific condition (or paying for LeaseCo to do it).

Once they reach a certain age (and don't know what specific clauses say), can often go off lease in scrap condition, but I suspect these are do young for that to apply.

They are a similar age to the 465s which are going to scrap after going off lease.

 

[tfw756rider]

They are a similar age to the 465s which are going to scrap after going off lease.

Isn't @Snow1964 referring to the 350/2s, not the 323s?

 

[BerkshireRails]

Isn't @Snow1964 referring to the 350/2s, not the 323s?

I am under the impression they are referring to the 323s.

 

[CdBrux]

I assume that was meant ironically. If not - have a quick trip to Munich and its S-Bahn - still employing some of the same class of units with which the system was launched in 1972 (albeit now only rhe final build lot dating from , the nineties).

and the u-bahn!

 

[Dspatula]

I've since been told that the idea of them coming to northern has died for contract reasons.
I've no idea , I'll leave to the people in know and stick with seeing is believing.

 

[WideRanger]

But they were built in THE NINETIES and ordered PRE PRIVATISATION . Only third world countries would still have trains running from that long ago!

Japan has lots of trains built in the 90's

 

[Transilien]

Japan has lots of trains built in the 90's

I know, I was just making a joke about how some people feel about older trains.

 

[D365]

Only third world countries would still have trains running from that long ago!

So by your definition, every western country is third world. A bizarre and non-productive comment.

Apologies if I missed some irony in your comment.

 

[Dspatula]

If they do still come to Northern despite 7car being an issue he's my thoughts on how they could possibly do things;

Liverpool routes
liv-wgn 5[4x331]
liv-bpn 3[4x331]
liv-mia 3[6x350]1[6x331]
liv-mcv 1[3x331]
South Manchester routes
man-cre 5[4x350]
man-sot 3[4x350]
man-ald 2[4x331]
man-hdf 3[4x350]
hdf extra 1[4x350]
mac extra 1[4x350]
hzl extra 1[4x350]
North Manchester routes
bpn-mia 8 4[6x350]4[6x331]
wgn-mcv 2[3x331]

Total=39
3[3x331]; 10[4x331] ; 17[4x350]; 5{10}[6x331]; 7{14}[6x350]

350x3 60m 14 of 17
331x3 72m 13 of 15
350x4 80m 14 of 17
331x4 96m 10 of 12

Key four Blackpool to Manchester Airport using 331x6
BON 0722 1Y53 = MCO 1637 1N52
BON 0753 1Y54 = MCO 1706 1N53
BON 0822 1Y55 = MCO 1737 1N54
BON 0854 1Y56 = MCO 1806 1N55

Platform extensions to 120m for the 6x 350s on the Liverpool to Manchester airport
Wavertree technology Park platform 1&2, Broad Green platform 2,Roby platform 3&4, Huyton platform 4, Whiston platform 1&2 and, Earlestown platform 2.
There are a few 117m one but you could probably get away with them.
Alternately the 6 car 350s could be deployed on the Liverpool- Blackpool which only require extensions at Euxton Balshaw Lane.
Would also be nice to have the extra 3 to cover Wigan to Stalybridge when that eventually happens.

 

[BerkshireRails]

If they do still come to Northern despite 7car being an issue he's my thoughts on how they could possibly do things;

Liverpool routes
liv-wgn 5[4x331]
liv-bpn 3[4x331]
liv-mia 3[6x350]1[6x331]
liv-mcv 1[3x331]
South Manchester routes
man-cre 5[4x350]
man-sot 3[4x350]
man-ald 2[4x331]
man-hdf 3[4x350]
hdf extra 1[4x350]
mac extra 1[4x350]
hzl extra 1[4x350]
North Manchester routes
bpn-mia 8 4[6x350]4[6x331]
wgn-mcv 2[3x331]

Total=39
3[3x331]; 10[4x331] ; 17[4x350]; 5{10}[6x331]; 7{14}[6x350]

350x3 60m 14 of 17
331x3 72m 13 of 15
350x4 80m 14 of 17
331x4 96m 10 of 12

Key four Blackpool to Manchester Airport using 331x6
BON 0722 1Y53 = MCO 1637 1N52
BON 0753 1Y54 = MCO 1706 1N53
BON 0822 1Y55 = MCO 1737 1N54
BON 0854 1Y56 = MCO 1806 1N55

Platform extensions to 120m for the 6x 350s on the Liverpool to Manchester airport
Wavertree technology Park platform 1&2, Broad Green platform 2,Roby platform 3&4, Huyton platform 4, Whiston platform 1&2 and, Earlestown platform 2.
There are a few 117m one but you could probably get away with them.
Alternately the 6 car 350s could be deployed on the Liverpool- Blackpool which only require extensions at Euxton Balshaw Lane.
Would also be nice to have the extra 3 to cover Wigan to Stalybridge when that eventually happens.

Why not just fit ASDO instead of shorting the units to 6 cars?

 

[tfw756rider]

I've since been told that the idea of them coming to northern has died for contract reasons.
I've no idea , I'll leave to the people in know and stick with seeing is believing.

By who? Was the idea has died actually said?

 

[Mamorin]

The route from Piccadilly to Stoke reopened today and there has been a lot of 4 cars Stoke Stoppers.

I was going to come on here and say I felt this was a hint towards 350/2s going to Northern since Stoke is normally a 3 car only route outside of two peak hour services.

However after read the more recent posts on this thread (spent today catching up on posts here I missed) I don't think the 350/2s are going to Northern.

Maybe the 350/2s will end up on the Bee Network if that becomes a separate TOC to Northern.

Shame as I was hoping for the 350/2s to go to Northern.

 

[tfw756rider]

The route from Piccadilly to Stoke reopened today and there has been a lot of 4 cars Stoke Stoppers.

I was going to come on here and say I felt this was a hint towards 350/2s going to Northern since Stoke is normally a 3 car only route outside of two peak hour services.

However after read the more recent posts on this thread (spent today catching up on posts here I missed) I don't think the 350/2s are going to Northern.

Maybe the 350/2s will end up on the Bee Network if that becomes a separate TOC to Northern.

Shame as I was hoping for the 350/2s to go to Northern.

There have been statements of denial, but they're due to that embargo stuff, so the 350/2s could still be going to Northern, but they could not be. We don't know which.

And we're still waiting for a reply from @Dspatula to my questioning (post #981) in reply to their post #975.

 

[Mamorin]

I understand embarge stuff and whatnot, but Clinnick has good sources.

He has been bang on the money about rolling stock cascades before, sure he could be being lied to which is possible.

Honestly I was waiting to see what would be written in this month Modern Railways about the 350/2 trials.

My guess is that 4 cars are being used in Stoke Stoppers today in order to keep driver competency with 331s on that line, and today made sense since the line has re-opened after being closed for most of this month.

 

[Dspatula]

By who? Was the idea has died actually said?

A more second hand source than the one that said it was happening, but the reason they gave me was a classic typical northern contract one that inclined me to believe them.
I don't really want to get myself or anyone else in trouble so its just rumours either way, the only thing I'll say is there's a reason my plan had nothing longer than six carriages.

 

[tfw756rider]

Thanks both.

 

[Mamorin]

Your welcome

 

[Minicheddar]

I understand embarge stuff and whatnot, but Clinnick has good sources.

He has been bang on the money about rolling stock cascades before, sure he could be being lied to which is possible.

Honestly I was waiting to see what would be written in this month Modern Railways about the 350/2 trials.

My guess is that 4 cars are being used in Stoke Stoppers today in order to keep driver competency with 331s on that line, and today made sense since the line has re-opened after being closed for most of this month.

The 4 cars were on Stoke to increase capacity with cross country running no trains. 6 car 323s couldn't run due to the platform at Poynton being temporarily shortened

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I suspect the lease contract for the original 17 Northern class 323 units ended in March 2025, the original end-date of the 2016 Arriva franchise.
I don't know the lease status of the 17 ex-WMT units now with Northern, but no doubt Porterbrook will be looking for something long-term covering the Northern 323 fleet.
They are also the owners looking to lease the 350/2 fleet, leading to the possibility of combination deals.
The future shape and size of Northern's EMU network is also a factor (eg taking over some TP services after TRU wiring).
350s have also worked across some significant Northern routes already, for WMT and TPE, so are well-known in the NW region.
350s have also been maintained at Ardwick.

 

[Mamorin]

The 4 cars were on Stoke to increase capacity with cross country running no trains. 6 car 323s couldn't run due to the platform at Poynton being temporarily shortened

Thanks for that information, I had not noticed the Cross Country services were not running and I had no idea about the platform situation at Poynton.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Aug 2025 ==

The future shape and size of Northern's EMU network is also a factor (eg taking over some TP services after TRU wiring).

My guess would be that is what the new EMUs that are part of Northern's new trains tender would be used for.