Greater Manchester Evening Return Sales Restrictions

[Tracky]

Having read that comment one point strikes me.

Guard comes down the train. Do you say to him,

Hello, I joined the 20:46 from Stalybridge to Manchester and was unable to buy a ticket at the station due to a problem with the Ticket Machine. It was delayed so my connection at Manchester Piccadilly was very tight and I could not buy a ticket there. Could I buy a Cheep Evening Return from Stalybridge to Wilmslow please.

I know it seems long winded but if provided with all the information (as you have done for the first time in 3 pages!) the guard may be able to make a better retail choice.

 

[table38]

True but I can't always predict what the conductor is going to say, so the conversation usually goes along the lines of:

Me: A Cheap Evening Return from abc to def please

Staff: We can't sell those after 9pm

Me: That's not a restriction for that ticket

Staff: Well, I've been told not to sell them after 9pm

Me: But that's not a restriction for that ticket​

etc. Which is why I'm trying to get people to stop saying that it is a restriction, precisely because it causes problems like I've outlined above.

It won't help telling a guard I started my journey before 9pm because they will just keep saying they can't sell it after 9pm.

Sorry, is it really three pages? Point taken! I'll shut up now as I really have nothing else to add.

 

[Tracky]

You see I think it really would help.

It has only become clear to me in that one post what the problem is.

By the time the guard gets to you on the 2135 out of Manchester it is long after 9pm and even if you tell the guard where you got on he won't know when you left, the delay or the state of the ticket machine...

Also I would say that the worst thing you can do is say "Me: But that's not a restriction for that ticket" as that seems argumentative and arguments dont solve anything. On top of this you are starting an argument with a shift worker sho has been on for some hours!

As for predicting the conversation, you can say all of

Hello, I joined the 20:46 from Stalybridge to Manchester and was unable to buy a ticket at the station due to a problem with the Ticket Machine. It was delayed so my connection at Manchester Piccadilly was very tight and I could not buy a ticket there. Could I buy a Cheep Evening Return from Stalybridge to Wilmslow please.

before the guard has spoken. You could even head to the back of the train when you get on and have a quiet word 1 to 1 before or as soon as he is done dispatching.

 

[1V53]

True but I can't always predict what the conductor is going to say, so the conversation usually goes along the lines of:

Me: A Cheap Evening Return from abc to def please

Staff: We can't sell those after 9pm

Me: That's not a restriction for that ticket

Staff: Well, I've been told not to sell them after 9pm

Me: But that's not a restriction for that ticket​

etc. Which is why I'm trying to get people to stop saying that it is a restriction, precisely because it causes problems like I've outlined above.

It won't help telling a guard I started my journey before 9pm because they will just keep saying they can't sell it after 9pm.

Sorry, is it really three pages? Point taken! I'll shut up now as I really have nothing else to add.

So you expect the guard to know exactly what is happening on other services, what train you arrived on and why, therefore, you are asking for the ticket? With this attitude - expecting the guard to have knowledge which he/she couldn't reasonably have - you aren't helping yourself are you?

 

[185]

I'd like to say that no guard would get lynched for selling a time restricted ticket a few minutes shy of the cut off times, such as the end of the morning peak - unfortunately the days of discretion are long gone and even the best guards know these some of the more pathetic companies and their little hitler managers will try anything to get ammunition against guards they don't like.

For the railway historians:
Discretion
Was something we had prior to the year 2000, until it was 'cured'.

 

[gooses]

So you expect the guard to know exactly what is happening on other services, what train you arrived on and why, therefore, you are asking for the ticket?

No. But I expect to be believed. I am a fare paying passenger who has done nothing wrong. table38 highlights the problems faced when boarding at unmanned stations and trying to buy evening returns after making connections excellently.

 

[AlterEgo]

No. But I expect to be believed. I am a fare paying passenger who has done nothing wrong.

With respect, it is not reasonable to expect rail staff to believe every single customer who passes their way with a story. Some are true, and some are total bunkum.

Nobody can really tell from instinct with any real certainty whether the passenger is intending to pull a fast one - that's why rail staff might check a story out.

Seems fair to me...

 

[Tracky]

I think the example script in my post just up there shows how you can be clear and concise giving full detail to the retailer very quickly. This then allows the retailer to come to a quick and informed decision so that he can apply the rules fairly. At the end of the day when I sell tickets I don't want to overly harsh and unnecessarily unfair.

 

[table38]

I don't really want to open this can of worms again, but my problem all along stems from being refused the correct ticket by someone quoting a restriction that does not exist (namely "I can't sell you this ticket after 9pm").

I'm sorry if it upsets anyone, but I cannot predict a restriction that doesn't exist - it's like the guard telling me he can't sell me that ticket because it's a Wednesday or a full moon . If I had to imagine all of the possible reasons someone might come up with for refusing to sell me a ticket, I'd be talking to the guard all day, whereas all I really want to do is to buy the correct ticket.

Rather than having to second-guess the guard, here's what I'd counter-propose:

Me: A Cheap Evening Return from abc to def please

Staff: OK, what time did you start your journey?

Me: I got the 20:46 from Stalybridge, and changed at Manchester

Staff: That's fine, have a nice day

Me: Thanks very much. You're looking very well by the way, have you lost weight?

Staff: Yes I have! Thanks for noticing​

etc. (OK, I made the last bit up )

If you think about it, this notion that Cheap Evening Returns can only be sold between 18:30 and 21:00 is patently false, otherwise how on earth could you buy one and get up to the platform for a train leaving at say 18:30 or 18:31 ?

 

[Tracky]

My point is rather than assuming the guard will ask you lots of seperate questions such as...

Staff: OK, what time did you start your journey?

...why not volunteer all the information in the initial request!

Hello, I joined the 20:46 from Stalybridge to Manchester and was unable to buy a ticket at the station due to a problem with the Ticket Machine. It was delayed so my connection at Manchester Piccadilly was very tight and I could not buy a ticket there. Could I buy a Cheep Evening Return from Stalybridge to Wilmslow please.

Also, as I mentioned earlier, you could head to the back of the train when you get on and have a quiet word 1 to 1 before or as soon as he is done dispatching.



Earlier on today I was at Piccadilly. A lad aproached me and said he had been let through by the staff as he was running late so when I reached him on the train I was happy to sell him anything from a full range of discounted tickets. If he had not asked, he would have had a Standard Single (or Day Return) and with no discount.

 

[table38]

...why not volunteer all the information in the initial request!

Because, as I've already said:

If I had to imagine all of the possible reasons someone might come up with for refusing to sell me a ticket, I'd be talking to the guard all day

And because in most cases, the guard will sell me the correct ticket I'd asked for, so I'd be wasting his time as well as mine.

Plus if I started off by assuming that the guard wasn't going to sell me the correct ticket, I'd probably get accused by some on here of being confrontational

It seems best to me to simply ask for the correct ticket, and then see where the conversation goes from there.

 

[Tracky]

And it strikes me, you say

If I had to imagine all of the possible reasons someone might come up with for refusing to sell me a ticket, I'd be talking to the guard all day

You dont have to imagine the reason he thinks he can't sell the ticket. You know he thinks he cant sell the ticket because you joined his train at 2135 at a manned station. You need to explain to him, in detail, the reasons why you want him to sell you that ticket.

But what you are asking, is for the guard to imagine or guess the reason why you should be allowed to buy a discounted ticket. Even if you tell him that you came in from Stalybridge, he may not know how far it is from Manchester, he won't know about delays and connections. I think you are asking a lot.

I will also add again the comment that if anybody joins my train at a major manned station such as Birmingham or Manchester and wishes to buy anything other than a full fare I expect (and respect their judgment far more) if they are pro-active, i.e. come and find me.

 

[snail]

Rather than having to second-guess the guard, here's what I'd counter-propose:

Me: A Cheap Evening Return from abc to def please

Staff: OK, what time did you start your journey?

Me: I got the 20:46 from Stalybridge, and changed at Manchester​

To which I would add

Staff: Why didn't you buy the ticket on that train?​

If you think about it, this notion that Cheap Evening Returns can only be sold between 18:30 and 21:00 is patently false, otherwise how on earth could you buy one and get up to the platform for a train leaving at say 18:30 or 18:31 ?

What do TVMs do? IIRC they are pretty strict at not selling Off Peak tickets where time restrictions apply until the stroke of the allowed time. Can you even get these tickets from machines?

 

[northwichcat]

Ticket type: Cheap Evening Return

Description: A Standard Class return ticket which can be purchased in advance or immediately before travel.

Train Operators: Virgin Trains, East Midlands Trains, Arriva Trains Wales, Northern Rail, Transpennine Express


Booking Deadlines: This ticket can be purchased in advance or immediately before travel.

Discounts:

Children (Aged 5 to 15 inclusive): No discount.
Up to two children under five can travel free with each fare paying passenger.

Railcard discounts:-

Disabled Persons Railcard: No discount
Family & Friends Railcard: No discount
HM Forces Railcard: No discount
Network Railcard: No discount
Senior Railcard: No discount
16-25 Railcard: No discount

Other discount cards:-
New Deal Photocard (England and Wales): No discount
Gold Cards: No discount

Refunds
A full refund is available if you return the completely unused ticket to the place of purchase within 28 days of expiry of the ticket. The amount of the refund will normally take into account any use you have made of the ticket and in some circumstances no refund will be paid.

Break of Journey
A break of journey is not allowed with this ticket except for changing trains at intermediate stations.

Validity
The outward journey must be on the date shown on the ticket. The return journey must be on the date shown on the ticket. There are time restrictions on when you can travel with this ticket.

Restrictions
The ticket that you have selected may require you to travel at specific times of the day, days of the week or on a specific route. Our Journey Planner will have already taken this into account with the selection that you have made and will only have shown tickets that are valid for the selected trains.
Your ticket is associated with a 'Validity Code' applied by the train companies. If you would like to see full details of the trains on which your ticket is valid view the specific 'Validity Code' applicable to the journey plan that you have selected.

Occasionally, one 'Validity Code' may cross-reference to another and therefore you might need to view the complete list of 'Validity Codes' applicable to the ticket type that you have selected.

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/servi...E&callingPage=/service/purchaseticket/summary

 

[table38]

To which I would add

Staff: Why didn't you buy the ticket on that train?​

A fair point, but we've dealt with the "seeking out the guard" question ad nauseum in other threads. Situations which I've had personal experience of include:

Guard in other set of a 2 x 3 car 185
Guard tending to a sick passenger

What do TVMs do? IIRC they are pretty strict at not selling Off Peak tickets where time restrictions apply until the stroke of the allowed time. Can you even get these tickets from machines?

Fortunately they are available from the TVM at Stalybridge (as you can see from the photo above somewhere) even right up to travel on the 21:01 to Victoria, although you are correct in that I've never seen them as an option if (for example) I travel at mid-day. I'd imagine they kick in around 18:15 but I'd need to do some more investigation.

However Evening Rangers aren't available from the TVM at all, which could be the subject of another rant robust discussion of anyone fancies it

 

[northwichcat]

Fortunately they are available from the TVM at Stalybridge

That's because it's a TPE TVM not a Northern one.

 

[scrapy]

Just to add the reason you cannot buy a Cheap evening return from Stalybridge to Wilmslow is the fare simply doesnt exist, it has nothing to do with times.

Cheap evening returns are avaliable between any two rail stations in Greater Manchester (including Disley and New Mills stations, excluding MUFG halt).

When either the origin or destination (or both) is outside this area. Fares are only available on direct services and not for travel beyond Manchester.

The restriction on the TPE ticket machine at Stalybridge is out of date (although in my opinion should be honoured if passengers are using that machine) When Cheap evening returns were first introduced, outward travel was valid on first train after 21.00 however the restriction was changed over 5 years ago and it is now not valid on trains Timed to depart after 2100.

 

[Lampshade]

Just to add the reason you cannot buy a Cheap evening return from Stalybridge to Wilmslow is the fare simply doesnt exist, it has nothing to do with times.

Wilmslow isn't in the GMPTE area so Evening Returns are not available - yet all the stations on the Buxton line have them :?

 

[table38]

Just to add the reason you cannot buy a Cheap evening return from Stalybridge to Wilmslow is the fare simply doesnt exist, it has nothing to do with times.

Cheap evening returns are avaliable between any two rail stations in Greater Manchester (including Disley and New Mills stations, excluding MUFG halt).

When either the origin or destination (or both) is outside this area. Fares are only available on direct services and not for travel beyond Manchester.

Fair enough. I was going off the National Rail site here:

Half price Adult Off Peak Return tickets between any 2 stations within Greater Manchester / and any 2 stations up to and including Manchester stations within the following boundary:

Macclesfield, Chelford, Plumley, Birchwood, Earlestown, Bryn, Southport, Chorley, Bromley Cross, Rochdale, Greenfield, Hadfield, Chinley and Buxton. (Not available to or from Manchester United Football Ground Halt).

It's the "2 stations" thing that is confusing me then.

I added the "/" to the quote in order to be able to explain that to me, it makes sense up to that point, then after that to me implies additionally any 2 stations...

If it really does mean:

Half price Adult Off Peak Return tickets

between

any 2 stations within Greater Manchester​

and

any 2 stations up to and including Manchester stations within the following boundary...​

It doesn't make as much sense as I'd have to travel from two stations to another two stations, and also implies it's valid as a return from Manchester to Wilmslow but not Wilmslow to Manchester.

The GMPTE TfGM site has a PDF which rules out anything outside of the Greater Manchester area but that might just be because they are only allowed to promote within the PTE area.

Anyway, its making my brain hurt now so I'm off for a lie down

 

[scrapy]

Lampshade, Cheap evening returns are available to Wilmslow. They are not restricted to just Greater Manchester, but to stations outside Greater Manchester they are only available on direct services. See Special Offers page on Northern website for which stations are included. Yes they are available all the way to Buxton and also on the line through Wilmslow as far out as Chelford.

The National rail website is also incorrect as they are available to/from Congleton on the Stoke line, Macclesfield isn't the boundary.

 

[northwichcat]

Wilmslow isn't in the GMPTE area so Evening Returns are not available - yet all the stations on the Buxton line have them :?

Wilmslow does have evening returns but not to Stalybridge.

I'll try and explain using my local station, Knutsford, as it's means I probably won't put any inaccurate information in.

Knutsford (Cheshire) to Manchester (G. Manchester) has an evening return.
Knutsford to Altrincham (G. Manchester) has an evening return.
Knutsford to Stockport (G. Manchester) has an evening return.

If I buy a return, from Knutsford, outside the GMPTE boundary, to another station before the GMPTE boundary e.g. Ashley, then no evening return is available. - Ignore. See below.

On the other hand if I want to continue my journey beyond Manchester to Urmston (G. Manchester) then an evening return isn't available unless I split at Manchester and buy two returns (which incidentally would be cheaper at any time of day.)

 

[scrapy]

Evening returns are available from Knutsford to Mobberley, Ashley and Plumley

 

[northwichcat]

Evening returns are available from Knutsford to Mobberley, Ashley and Plumley

D'oh, I didn't realise!

 

[Lampshade]

Aha, makes a bit more sense now

 

[scrapy]

Out of interest who 'funds' the other half of cheap evening returns.

Does Northern offer them on a commercial basis? On the grounds that more people will travel. If so I believe this is commercially flawed as I believe at least 75% of people travelling on them would travel anyway. If it were commercially viable why don't they do it in Liverpool/Leeds?

Or are they subsidised by TFGM/local councils. If so surely in these days where council money is tight should they be subsidising peoples nights out when the money could be spent on other things such as improving passenger facilities at stations. Off peak fares particularly within Greater Manchester are usually cheaper than competing buses/taxis anyway

 

[hairyhandedfool]

First of all, as with any other valid ticket, Cheap evening returns can be sold at any time, the restriction is on the time of travel.

Secondly, table38, it means:

Travel between any two stations in the Greater Manchester area.

OR

Travel between a boundary station (as defined in the document) and another station on the same line upto and including Manchester stations.

For example, there is a cheap evening return from Earlestown to Patricroft and from Patricroft to Stalybridge, but not from Earlestown to Stalybridge.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

....Or are they subsidised by TFGM/local councils. If so surely in these days where council money is tight should they be subsidising peoples nights out when the money could be spent on other things such as improving passenger facilities at stations. Off peak fares particularly within Greater Manchester are usually cheaper than competing buses/taxis anyway

I believe TfGM subsidise the fares in GM, so it follows that they subsidise that too.

 

[northwichcat]

Or are they subsidised by TFGM/local councils. If so surely in these days where council money is tight should they be subsidising peoples nights out when the money could be spent on other things such as improving passenger facilities at stations. Off peak fares particularly within Greater Manchester are usually cheaper than competing buses/taxis anyway

It was introduced after the IRA bombing of Manchester to encourage people to still go on nights out in Manchester and hasn't been withdrawn since.

 

[WestCoast]

Northern's TVMs are rubbish at anything other than a normal ticket. Are they still not issuing VT Only tickets (and not Evening Returns or Duos)?

My only major criticism of Northern is their ticketing arrangements. They are simply inadequate, the massive hoards of people coming off Glossop trains waiting to buy tickets from G4S show that...

Do Virgin's TVMs offer Evening Returns?

 

[Lampshade]

Northern's TVMs are rubbish at anything other than a normal ticket. Are they still not issuing VT Only tickets (and not Evening Returns or Duos)?

The Northern TVMs are awful, they use the Avantix portable ticketing stock with the tabs on the side where they've been attached to the other, they run out of 'ink' all too often, very rarely is the text aligned properly with the ticket, I've often had a ticket from 'NCHESTER CTLZ' to 'HBURYS' and when more 'ink' has been put in the text is so thick it's unreadable. It's typical of a lot of things Northern (West) do - half assed.

The Virgin ones are much better, they print tickets just like the machines in the ticket offices and they allow the collection of AP tickets.

Do Virgin's TVMs offer Evening Returns?

They do indeed.

 

[island]

The Northern TVMs are awful, they use the Avantix portable ticketing stock with the tabs on the side where they've been attached to the other, they run out of 'ink' all too often, very rarely is the text aligned properly with the ticket, I've often had a ticket from 'NCHESTER CTLZ' to 'HBURYS' and when more 'ink' has been put in the text is so thick it's unreadable. It's typical of a lot of things Northern (West) do - half assed.

Northern (and all other) TVMs are thermal nowadays, no ink at all! Most likely the print head is dirty (I used to work with similar machines printing Tote betting tickets a while back) and just needs wiping down with a cloth.

I think they use roll-fed tickets, rather than Avantix Mobile's fan-fed tickets or the infinitely preferable hopper-fed tickets.