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Fife Rail Electrification/Decarbonisation

TrainViation

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Markinch-Dundee might be a while yet. I was on Meadowplace Rd Corstorphine,for a few weeks I've seen the overhead stanchions ready & waiting. The bridge carrying Ladywell Ave over the railway is going to be closed until next summer. How it takes them that long to replace a bridge beats me,but that's the situation there. I can't imagine Markinch being worked on at the same time as Haymarket-Cardenden.
Well, Kirkcaldy to Ladybank is phase 4 of the FCE project, so I'd imagine it would a lot sooner than the rest of the circle being wired. Also, there are already quite a lot of planning permissions already submitted for bridges to be raised or demolished in the Kinghorn - Ladybank section. Just that specific bridge hasn't been listed. The vast majority of bridges listed in the northern portion are due to be worked on between October and April of next year. As for Ladybank to Dundee, that I'm not sure about. I'm not sure if it'll just be another gap in the wires before they restart between Dundee and Montrose. And then again, I really hope they go back and make it fully electrified as opposed to relying solely on batteries for every single new train to run on the section.
 
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John R

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Electrification as far as Ladybank will enable both Perth and Dundee terminators to switch to BEMU operation without any immediate need to go any further north as the return trips from there on battery are around 40 miles or less. So you get a lot of bang for your electrification buck.
 

Falcon1200

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I do take your point, and I apologise, that's my mistake.

No problem, thanks.

Nobody ever told them to go and model the wiring down to Kilmarnock, because nobody saw it as a priority.* It's a not particularly busy line, either in terms of number of passengers or number of trains,

We will have to disagree, again, there! Barrhead/Kilmarnock sustains a half-hourly service, albeit trains going south of Kilmarnock would not use the overheads until BEMUs are available, and the short link round to Barassie provides operational benefits. At present the electrification between Muirhouse and Barrhead benefits just one train an hour, although the section to Busby Jc will be of more use once EMUs start to East Kilbride. We are, however, where we are....
 

John R

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I doubt the trains running south of Kilmarnock would be able to use BEMU given the long distances that they operate on which will still be unelectrified under your scenario.
 

TrainViation

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Electrification as far as Ladybank will enable both Perth and Dundee terminators to switch to BEMU operation without any immediate need to go any further north as the return trips from there on battery are around 40 miles or less. So you get a lot of bang for your electrification buck.
I agree with that in the short term, but realistically it should be fully electrified in the future, or in at most 10-15 years.
 

John R

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That is the plan, and BEMUs are a way of getting as much of the mileage diesel free as soon as possible. It's all very well setting targets and saying they are realistic, but realism includes consideration of capital budgets, what benefit you get by infilling the gaps once you have shiny new BEMUs, unless there is a clear cascade plan for those units (which may well involve electrification elsewhere, in which case, which do you do first?), competing projects for funds (do you build a new hospital or infill a bit of electrification) and so on and so on.

Unless you have unlimited capital resources, or have an electorate willing to stomach even higher taxes than will already be needed by the inevitable humungous increase in health and pension spend due to the ageing population, then governments will always have to make tough decisions as to what it spends its money on. That's what being realistic means.
 

hwl

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It is worth remembering that one drivers of the lower cost in £/stkm terms is more likely to be delivered with teams working at roughly constant rates rather than peak and troughs hence unless you have BEMUs this means that some of the infrastructure will take a long time to get used. You can't do everything at the last moment at keep cost rates low.
There is also a chicken and egg situation in that you need enough initially electrified to make BEMUs work efficiently -this is what getting on with the early bits of Fife are doing.
 
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Trainbike46

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I do take your point, and I apologise, that's my mistake. I had you mixed up with another forum member who has been very vocal on the subject of East Kilbride, however their point being that the line shouldn't have been wired unless there are extant trains to be able to run an electric service, and that the money should have been spent elsewhere. I am sorry for 'calling you out' and I didn't mean to accuse you of being anti-electrification, when you have clearly been supportive.



I'll come back to this.



The estimated cost for the Happy Trains exercise is buried deep in the TS accounts for the years in question, and although I cannot find the exact number, it's several tens of millions of pounds, for an immediate lease, staff training and route clearance, and the cost of compensation paid out when other services were cancelled as stock was shuffled around.



Not exactly, but not far off. They want to get the money for electrification as quickly as possible from a separate budget, into the enhancements budget. Currently, the money for electrification is spent as a one off, capital expenditure, however once costs come down enough and there's enough of a pipeline, then suddenly it counts as operational expenditure.

If costs come down far enough, then the cost of wiring is offset by the savings from running electric Vs diesel trains, and suddenly it counts as an investment that can be written off, and the whole thing becomes an academic exercise; you can just increase the enhancements budget by X amount, and let SPL just get on with it.



I'll get back to this as well



And this.



This is true, but not necessarily helpful. Most electrification schemes do include some new electric stock, either from a factory or from one of the Home Counties TOCs that's just ordered a batch of new trains.

The difficulty in Scotland is that the electrification money was already spent before COVID, but no money was spent on new trains. The conversation about the design teams, and the feeder stations, is particularly relevant here.

Detailed design for electrification takes years, from modelling demand and supply, to creating a detailed model of the route to see if any new masts block line of sight of signals, to seeing which bridges need a rebuild, to talking to councils and utilities providers and asking where their pipes and wires are, and where they can pile and which bridges are going to be complicated and expensive. The lead time on the feeder stations before COVID was about 6 years, and the lead time on grid connections, depending where in the country they're going, can be up to a decade.

Some of these issues are things you just have to deal with; insulating the signalling is just something you do whenever there's a renewal job, or you send a team out for six months insulating the whole thing. Others are symptomatic of wider economic issues; the issues with National Grid and getting grid connections is widely documented, and is just a side effect of a private company running a national asset, and the massive, rapid shift towards electric everything.

The design teams were set up way way back before EGIP got underway, in 2008!!! They've been working through the list of priorities set out way back then, first Cumbernauld, then E&G, then the Stirling Triangle, the Shotts line, and so on. The reason East Kilbride and Barrhead were shovel ready was because someone close to fifteen years ago decided that it made sense to wire those two up next in line after Stirling and Shotts.

After that, they worked and designed the Borders line wiring, which is done, and there is a feeder station sitting in Cadder Yard waiting to be shipped to Tweedbank, and the teams will begin putting masts up at some point in the next year or so.

Then they did the design of the line up to Perth, when they stopped, and moved to the whole ECML, up as far as Aberdeen. The whole design for the whole line to Aberdeen is done, which is why there are sporadic bridge closures or rebuilding a between Dundee and Aberdeen, as the bridge rebuilding team moves from one bridge to the next around the country.

The reason they stopped at Perth, is that this was before COVID, and there was an expectation that Perth station would be remodeled at some point in CP7. Design work couldn't start, and indeed electrification cannot begin, until Perth is razed and rebuilt. The signalling, the layout, and the station are woefully inadequate, and the design team just moved on to somewhere else. Obviously COVID happened, and now there's less money and things are more expensive, so they haven't rebuilt Perth, so the design team haven't come back to finish the job.

Nobody ever told them to go and model the wiring down to Kilmarnock, because nobody saw it as a priority.* It's a not particularly busy line, either in terms of number of passengers or number of trains, and therefore you don't really unlock much capacity. Wiring Fife cascades a lot of more modern diesel units, so you don't need to buy new diesel trains to serve it when the 156s go to the scrapheap. I'm sure the design team has probably begun on the Kilmarnock design already, but that's a multi-year job, and, here is the important bit, it makes sense to wire the bits that are already designed, than stop wiring and wait until something else is designed.




So here we come to the crux of the issue. These designs, the order of priorities, and the decision to wire, was made years ago, before COVID, and years before that. The grid feeders sat in the SPL compound were ordered in 2017!

It made a lot of sense to order them, because back then everyone had hot and cold running money; you could pay for pretty much anything in an era of zero interest rates and minimal inflation. Nobody could have predicted (yes they absolutely could have) that there would be a shock to the global economy, and the new trains to run the new electric services would become unaffordable. Basically, the wires were ordered a decade ago, the trains should have been ordered five years ago, but weren't.

They've paid for all the design and kit already, they just haven't put the bits in the ground yet. It makes sense therefore, unless I'm being particularly stupid, to just keep building the wiring that you've in effect already bought, and take the hit on an unused asset for a couple of years until the trains arrive late?
Thank you for sharing your clearly expert knowledge!

You cover some points I was hinting at very clearly.
 

John R

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Back to progress, thank you @AMD for those great photos and video. I hope you are able to keep us updated as to the "mast count". I'm guessing around 12 masts are required per single track km, so with around 15km to do that would mean somewhere in the region of 180 in total (not allowing for any twin track cantilevers, of which I think I noted a few stanchions in the video?).
 
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68000

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I do take your point, and I apologise, that's my mistake. I had you mixed up with another forum member who has been very vocal on the subject of East Kilbride, however their point being that the line shouldn't have been wired unless there are extant trains to be able to run an electric service, and that the money should have been spent elsewhere. I am sorry for 'calling you out' and I didn't mean to accuse you of being anti-electrification, when you have clearly been supportive.



I'll come back to this.



The estimated cost for the Happy Trains exercise is buried deep in the TS accounts for the years in question, and although I cannot find the exact number, it's several tens of millions of pounds, for an immediate lease, staff training and route clearance, and the cost of compensation paid out when other services were cancelled as stock was shuffled around.



Not exactly, but not far off. They want to get the money for electrification as quickly as possible from a separate budget, into the enhancements budget. Currently, the money for electrification is spent as a one off, capital expenditure, however once costs come down enough and there's enough of a pipeline, then suddenly it counts as operational expenditure.

If costs come down far enough, then the cost of wiring is offset by the savings from running electric Vs diesel trains, and suddenly it counts as an investment that can be written off, and the whole thing becomes an academic exercise; you can just increase the enhancements budget by X amount, and let SPL just get on with it.



I'll get back to this as well



And this.



This is true, but not necessarily helpful. Most electrification schemes do include some new electric stock, either from a factory or from one of the Home Counties TOCs that's just ordered a batch of new trains.

The difficulty in Scotland is that the electrification money was already spent before COVID, but no money was spent on new trains. The conversation about the design teams, and the feeder stations, is particularly relevant here.

Detailed design for electrification takes years, from modelling demand and supply, to creating a detailed model of the route to see if any new masts block line of sight of signals, to seeing which bridges need a rebuild, to talking to councils and utilities providers and asking where their pipes and wires are, and where they can pile and which bridges are going to be complicated and expensive. The lead time on the feeder stations before COVID was about 6 years, and the lead time on grid connections, depending where in the country they're going, can be up to a decade.

Some of these issues are things you just have to deal with; insulating the signalling is just something you do whenever there's a renewal job, or you send a team out for six months insulating the whole thing. Others are symptomatic of wider economic issues; the issues with National Grid and getting grid connections is widely documented, and is just a side effect of a private company running a national asset, and the massive, rapid shift towards electric everything.

The design teams were set up way way back before EGIP got underway, in 2008!!! They've been working through the list of priorities set out way back then, first Cumbernauld, then E&G, then the Stirling Triangle, the Shotts line, and so on. The reason East Kilbride and Barrhead were shovel ready was because someone close to fifteen years ago decided that it made sense to wire those two up next in line after Stirling and Shotts.

After that, they worked and designed the Borders line wiring, which is done, and there is a feeder station sitting in Cadder Yard waiting to be shipped to Tweedbank, and the teams will begin putting masts up at some point in the next year or so.

Then they did the design of the line up to Perth, when they stopped, and moved to the whole ECML, up as far as Aberdeen. The whole design for the whole line to Aberdeen is done, which is why there are sporadic bridge closures or rebuilding a between Dundee and Aberdeen, as the bridge rebuilding team moves from one bridge to the next around the country.

The reason they stopped at Perth, is that this was before COVID, and there was an expectation that Perth station would be remodeled at some point in CP7. Design work couldn't start, and indeed electrification cannot begin, until Perth is razed and rebuilt. The signalling, the layout, and the station are woefully inadequate, and the design team just moved on to somewhere else. Obviously COVID happened, and now there's less money and things are more expensive, so they haven't rebuilt Perth, so the design team haven't come back to finish the job.

Nobody ever told them to go and model the wiring down to Kilmarnock, because nobody saw it as a priority.* It's a not particularly busy line, either in terms of number of passengers or number of trains, and therefore you don't really unlock much capacity. Wiring Fife cascades a lot of more modern diesel units, so you don't need to buy new diesel trains to serve it when the 156s go to the scrapheap. I'm sure the design team has probably begun on the Kilmarnock design already, but that's a multi-year job, and, here is the important bit, it makes sense to wire the bits that are already designed, than stop wiring and wait until something else is designed.




So here we come to the crux of the issue. These designs, the order of priorities, and the decision to wire, was made years ago, before COVID, and years before that. The grid feeders sat in the SPL compound were ordered in 2017!

It made a lot of sense to order them, because back then everyone had hot and cold running money; you could pay for pretty much anything in an era of zero interest rates and minimal inflation. Nobody could have predicted (yes they absolutely could have) that there would be a shock to the global economy, and the new trains to run the new electric services would become unaffordable. Basically, the wires were ordered a decade ago, the trains should have been ordered five years ago, but weren't.

They've paid for all the design and kit already, they just haven't put the bits in the ground yet. It makes sense therefore, unless I'm being particularly stupid, to just keep building the wiring that you've in effect already bought, and take the hit on an unused asset for a couple of years until the trains arrive late?



*Priority in this case is a bit of a nebulous term. The order of the list was determined by demand modelling, cost efficiency, practicality, and no small bit of politicking. Who gets new trains in what order is important to some people, and a great number of those people will be in charge of telling NRScot how soon certain areas get electric trains, and in which order they do so.

It's not particularly surprising that Dumfries and Galloway, being a vast rural area, not particularly supportive of the current Scottish Government, and low demand for the trains in general, is currently sat quite far down the list. It's also not surprising that Fife, a much more populous area, with far more services and no small number of marginal constituencies, is near the top.
Very good post, need more of it
 

Altnabreac

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No problem, thanks.



We will have to disagree, again, there! Barrhead/Kilmarnock sustains a half-hourly service, albeit trains going south of Kilmarnock would not use the overheads until BEMUs are available, and the short link round to Barassie provides operational benefits. At present the electrification between Muirhouse and Barrhead benefits just one train an hour, although the section to Busby Jc will be of more use once EMUs start to East Kilbride. We are, however, where we are....

Kilmarnock is really not the best project to do next because there’s a limited number of services that can use it.

In terms of pure electric services it basically only allows 3 trains per 2 hours.

BEMUs aren’t a lot of use here either as nearly all the Ayrshire starters of old have now been extended back to Dumfries and Carlisle so the only extra service that could be run by a BEMU is a single morning Auchinleck starter.

Realistically to run BEMUs you need to wire Carlisle - Dumfries and Kilmarnock - New Cumnock which is not a short term project.

Barassie - Kilmarnock is equally inefficient as there are very few services not going on to Girvan. BEMUs might just about be able to make it to Girvan and back but again it’s a much less frequent service than the Fife lines.
 

Falcon1200

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BEMUs aren’t a lot of use here either as nearly all the Ayrshire starters of old have now been extended back to Dumfries and Carlisle so the only extra service that could be run by a BEMU is a single morning Auchinleck starter.

Yet BEMUs will apparently be able to make it to Aberdeen under equally limited electrification! And if they cannot make it between Kilmarnock and Gretna Jc, the service could be split at Kilmarnock with cross-platform connection between EMU and DMU.

Barassie - Kilmarnock is equally inefficient as there are very few services not going on to Girvan.

Given the short distance and simplicity of the job, not electrifying it would be even more inefficient, and daft!
 

John R

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Yet BEMUs will apparently be able to make it to Aberdeen under equally limited electrification! And if they cannot make it between Kilmarnock and Gretna Jc, the service could be split at Kilmarnock with cross-platform connection between EMU and DMU.



Given the short distance and simplicity of the job, not electrifying it would be even more inefficient, and daft!
You're really clutching at straws now. Having had it pointed out to you that BEMUs won't be appropriate for the longer distance services through Kilmarnock - a point that had clearly escaped you, you're now trying to justify it by saying "well you could electrify to Girvan, and if the BEMUs are proposed to get to Aberdeen from Dundee (71 miles) then why can't they do it from Kilmarnock to Gretna (83 miles). And BEMUs will only be introduced on the Aberdeen run once some more infill is carried out, which will facilitate a lot more electric working than on the South West route, hence why it is a higher priority.

Besides, your argument for doing Kilmarnock now is that existing EMUs could run the services, and it's been pointed out to you that very few additional services would benefit until such time as BEMUs are available, and even then not many. So on both counts, existing EMU services, and future BEMU services, electrification is a relatively weak case, which suggests that those who have spent considerable time in assessing and prioritising a multi-million pound multi-year scheme have probably got it right, and maybe you haven't.

(And then you've got the point very persuasively made by both @takno and @waverley47 that the planning for these is carried out years in advance and aimed at minimising spend by doing things in order, so just coming along and saying "Why not do Girvan, so we can justify Kilmarnock, so we can justify finding some EMUs from somewhere at considerable cost" isn't the right way to go about planning projects.)
 

Falcon1200

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you're now trying to justify it by saying "well you could electrify to Girvan,

Where did I say that - please provide a quote.

Aberdeen from Dundee (71 miles) then why can't they do it from Kilmarnock to Gretna (83 miles)

A difference of all of 12 miles. Also assuming the putative BEMUs are fully charged at Dundee, and of course at Aberdeen to return south.

once some more infill

Which will be achieved when, do you think?

I will not comment here any further as we are going round in circles. Let's all come back when BEMUs are running in Fife and to Aberdeen, whenever that may be.
 

TrainViation

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Found this on roadworksscotland.org, and it looks like a foothpath/private road is being rebuild in Coaltown of Balgonie (to the south of Markinch station)... This is due to commence in late December during new year closures.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I also found this, which I figured might have some information in it. https://www.find-tender.service.gov.uk/Notice/043171-2025?origin=SearchResults&p=11
 

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TrainViation

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I was down today and there's now 67 masts up, they're not hanging about!!
Wow! Can't wait to see how many there are in a good couple of weeks! Also sorry for asking but is there any change of getting footage between Edinburgh Gateway and Haymarket, or South Gyle?
 

TrainViation

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That’s Network Rail put in a planning application to raise the platform footbridge at Markinch.

(Please let me know if these updates are actually useful, as I don’t want to clog up the forum with minor events.)
 

John R

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That’s Network Rail put in a planning application to raise the platform footbridge at Markinch.

(Please let me know if these updates are actually useful, as I don’t want to clog up the forum with minor events.)
Small factual updates on progress (albeit in the planning stage) are definitely of interest.
 

hwl

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That’s Network Rail put in a planning application to raise the platform footbridge at Markinch.

(Please let me know if these updates are actually useful, as I don’t want to clog up the forum with minor events.)
Small factual updates on progress (albeit in the planning stage) are definitely of interest.
Seconded, very useful indeed.

I suspect "Fife" will effectively be a BEMU research and testing facility before passengers services start.
 

mcmad

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That’s Network Rail put in a planning application to raise the platform footbridge at Markinch.

(Please let me know if these updates are actually useful, as I don’t want to clog up the forum with minor events.)
Looks to be just raising the parapet height which since its a relatively new structure is good.
 

TrainViation

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Looks to be just raising the parapet height which since its a relatively new structure is good.
Relatively new, yet it's rusty and not very nice looking already (from the walkway section).

I've just gotten a drone, so I'll try and go out and film the Leven line progress soon.
 

John R

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Relatively new, yet it's rusty and not very nice looking already (from the walkway section).

I've just gotten a drone, so I'll try and go out and film the Leven line progress soon.
Don’t forget there are strict rules as to how close to a railway line you are permitted to fly a drone.
 

TrainViation

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Don’t forget there are strict rules as to how close to a railway line you are permitted to fly a drone.
Yes yes, I'm sure it's 50 metres away is the closest you are allowed to get? Should be fine if I'm high enough up or far enough away or both.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Went up with the drone yesterday around Earlseat Junction, and it looked like there were about 20 piles lying on their side around where the line doubles up again.
That area is pretty much fully piled though, so I'm curious what they are there for (unless that's the closest feasible location to where they can store the piles for the rivery section).
 
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Nicholas Lewis

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I was down today and there's now 67 masts up, they're not hanging about!!
Not unreasonable progress as they only need to bolt them onto the installed foundations so could easily get up 4-6 on a mid week night possession.

What we need to see now is foundation installations getting started somewhere on the Fife circle to ensure the steelworks team have somewhere to move onto in 2026.
 

TrainViation

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Some images of poles on the Leven line attached below. I’ve gotten some drone footage of a chunk of the line which I am yet to upload, and I’ll post again when it’s online.
 

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