Should "false destinations" be used on slow/circular services?

[MarlowDonkey]

Would the reason for that particular false destination not have been that there was a later, faster train to Paddington? Not however an issue at Oxford for the last few years.....

Before electrification and the Elizabeth Line, some of the stoppers to Paddington started at Oxford. From Oxford to Paddington a through service would be a GWR service. Are there any that still stop at Ealing Broadway? You wouldn't expect an 80x at Ealing but a late night or very early morning 165 is perhaps an outside chance.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

From Oxford to Paddington a through service would be a GWR service. Are there any that still stop at Ealing Broadway?

Not currently. You'd need an intermediate change en route at somewhere like Reading or Slough.

 

[PeterC]

Whatever you do it will confuse somebody.

I have known somebody get on a slow terminating at their stop rather than the fast they had been told to take which was first stop at their station. I have also had a visitor turn up in a taxi because the bus showed a destination a third of the way round the loop and my village was two thirds of the way round.

Back in the 80s I think Shenfield had it right. The boards showed the real stopping pattern but the PA announced stoppers as "all stations to Maryland".

 

[Krokodil]

I have also had a visitor turn up in a taxi because the bus showed a destination a third of the way round the loop and my village was two thirds of the way round.

This is the sort of case where naming the service would help. The destination screen would show "Bigtown Circular" or whatever.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whatever you do it will confuse somebody.

I have known somebody get on a slow terminating at their stop rather than the fast they had been told to take which was first stop at their station.

Better they arrive late than that they don't board at all and get stranded for ages.

I have also had a visitor turn up in a taxi because the bus showed a destination a third of the way round the loop and my village was two thirds of the way round.

Back in the 80s I think Shenfield had it right. The boards showed the real stopping pattern but the PA announced stoppers as "all stations to Maryland".

All stations to Maryland, then continuing to London Liverpool Street, is probably the way to do it.

Buses can be a lot worse. I know there's the "fake termination" stuff related to the rules around registered local bus services (really should fix that now we're out of the EU) but I've come across the worst example of that I've known this weekend. There is a single through bus route that runs from Plymouth to Dartmouth via Kingsbridge, but it's split into two routes 3 and 93 with absolutely no indication anywhere bar on the printed timetable material on weekdays/Saturdays (but not the Sunday timetable) that it is in fact one route, and the "connections" only being 5 minutes mean you wouldn't trust them if you didn't know. The bus destination gives no clue, though the drivers tell you if you ask and will sell a through fare so you pay £3 rather than £6 (I've come across cases like this where a through fare can't be sold elsewhere). An utterly bizarre way of throwing away potential traffic.

 

[Ken H]

The one I'm familiar with is the York - Leeds via Harrogate services, which are advertised as destination Poppleton from Leeds and Burley Park from York. You can see why this is done, because if you are travelling from York to Leeds you almost certainly don't want that train, so having it advertised to Leeds might cause issues. But it's not a perfect solution as there was at least one case on the Disputes and Prosecutions board where someone had an advance from Leeds to York on the Harrogate service, and boarded a direct service that unhelpfully left Leeds at the same time.

what about people who want to do the circle Harrogate - York - Leeds - Harrogate. I have done that with a day return Harrogate - Church Fenton. Got out of the station at York for a wander round. Pity there isnt a round robin ticket for that.

 

[PeterC]

This is the sort of case where naming the service would help. The destination screen would show "Bigtown Circular" or whatever.

Not when it's a banjo rather than a circle..

Better they arrive late than that they don't board at all and get stranded for ages.

On a site visit to a branch with a hostile manager having an assistant who couldn't catch the right train didn't help the department's credibility.

 

[Krokodil]

Not when it's a banjo rather than a circle..

"Littletown Loop" then, you can come up with all sorts of names to fit the circumstances.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is the sort of case where naming the service would help. The destination screen would show "Bigtown Circular" or whatever.

The Milton Keynes example noted above is shown as "The Loop Clockwise" (or anticlockwise) on the displays now after a lot of complaints about it being confusing when they were listing Circle Line style via points that not everyone knew.

Or you have the Germanic option - S1 Clockwise/S1 Anticlockwise does the job.

The only one I can see sense in having false destinations is the very specific case of the Chester-Chester via Liverpool service, which at a push could be shown northbound as "via Liverpool Loop" I suppose, but I'm not sure if that would improve things over showing Liverpool Central until leaving James St and Chester thereafter. If it still ran Chester-West Kirby then it'd make sense to show West Kirby via Liverpool Central.

 

[The exile]

The only one I can see sense in having false destinations is the very specific case of the Chester-Chester via Liverpool service, which at a push could be shown northbound as "via Liverpool Loop" I suppose, but I'm not sure if that would improve things over showing Liverpool Central until leaving James St and Chester thereafter. If it still ran Chester-West Kirby then it'd make sense to show West Kirby via Liverpool Central.

Are there no loop services out of Waterloo any longer? They are/were also an obvious candidate for fake destinations (and indeed moving the destination in as you progress round the loop.

 

[Kite159]

..

Are there no loop services out of Waterloo any longer? They are/were also an obvious candidate for fake destinations (and indeed moving the destination in as you progress round the loop.

Half Hourly Kingston Loop service (at Waterloo advertised as strawberry hill for the via Wimbledon & Teddington for the via Twickenham services) and the peak time Hounslow loop services

 

[gallafent]

Was this recently? If so did all the on train announcements and the fact that other passengers didn’t all get off pass them by?

No, years ago (when there _were_ stoppers from Oxford to Paddington, before the slows were split at Didcot!). No idea how many announcements there were, but quite possibly none (this is before the 16x refurbs), and sure, if one has got off a train and is looking for the next one, the fact that some of the other passengers haven't got off it yet wouldn't be surprising.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2025 ==

Would the reason for that particular false destination not have been that there was a later, faster train to Paddington? Not however an issue at Oxford for the last few years.....

I think it was a very late train so there might well not have been a later faster train ... but all the stoppers had Ealing Broadway set as the destination I guess! Not having actually been on the particular mission in question, and only having heard about it from them, I doubtless missed some of the more frustrating nuances

 

[BerkshireRails]

Are there any that still stop at Ealing Broadway?

Only Monday-Friday nights between around 23:00 & 06:00 with Reading to London Paddington GWR stoppers, calling at Twyford, Maidenhead, Slough, West Drayton, Hayes & Harlington, Southall and Ealing Broadway which gets operated by the class 165s and 387s.

..

Half Hourly Kingston Loop service (at Waterloo advertised as strawberry hill for the via Wimbledon & Teddington for the via Twickenham services) and the peak time Hounslow loop services

And Weybridge looper just seems to be Weybridge from London Waterloo.

 

[Jimini]

Just wandered over the footbridge at Reading, and noticed that the “next trains to London” displays have GWR services marked as Paddington, and TfL services as Liverpool Street. Probably not a bad way of doing it?

 

[BerkshireRails]

Just wandered over the footbridge at Reading, and noticed that the “next trains to London” displays have GWR services marked as Paddington, and TfL services as Liverpool Street. Probably not a bad way of doing it?

Elizabeth Line trains normally show as Abbey Wood trains.

 

[Jimini]

Elizabeth Line trains normally show as Abbey Wood trains.

On the platform displays yep, but this is the “next train to London” ones on the footbridge.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

And Weybridge looper just seems to be Weybridge from London Waterloo.

Err.... these aren't loops are they? They run in and out of the bay platform 1 at Weybridge and go back the way they came?

 

[BerkshireRails]

Err.... these aren't loops are they? They run in and out of the bay platform 1 at Weybridge and go back the way they came?

That is correct however it act as a Looper in effect as run the majority of the route and if not for the flat junction at Weybridge the might be a proper looper. It is much quicker to take a Main Line train to Weybridge from London than a Weybridge on the Windsor Line via Hounslow. There might be justification for calling it Chester service at London Waterloo, Vauxhall and Clapham Junction to discourage use by the people for Weybridge.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

That is correct however it act as a Looper in effect as run the majority of the route and if not for the flat junction at Weybridge the might be a proper looper. It is much quicker to take a Main Line train to Weybridge from London than a Weybridge on the Windsor Line via Hounslow. There might be justification for calling it Chester service at London Waterloo, Vauxhall and Clapham Junction to discourage use by the people for Weybridge.

Good point, and I think autocorrupt was trying to say Chertsey there...?

 

[BerkshireRails]

Good point, and I think autocorrupt was trying to say Chertsey there...?

Yeah it was trying to say Chertsey.

 

[Miles Bown]

What about the Thameslink Sutton loopers? These are all advertised to Sutton via Wimbledon/Mitcham Jct, but I can imagine there's a not-insignificant amount of cross-Sutton traffic - maybe the locals are in the know, but would an infrequent traveller be so sure?

All stations to Maryland, then continuing to London Liverpool Street, is probably the way to do it.

Surely 'all stations to Liverpool St' would suffice, no?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

What about the Thameslink Sutton loopers? These are all advertised to Sutton via Wimbledon/Mitcham Jct, but I can imagine there's a not-insignificant amount of cross-Sutton traffic - maybe the locals are in the know, but would an infrequent traveller be so sure?

Certainly those on board clockwise services will be aware as they are announced, approaching Sutton, as "this train will continue to Central London via Wimbledon".

You are correct in that there is nothing on the screens at stations anywhere, as far as I know, which flag that up - and I think it should be; once the clockwise has reached Mitcham Eastfields it should certainly be advertised as Wimbledon at least. Anti-clockwise, advertising as Mitcham Eastfields from Tooting and maybe the full destination from Morden South ( prior to there it is quicker to get the clockwise service )?

 

[321362]

That reminds me of when South Western Railway services call at Virginia Water twice on the same service.

How do the Salisbury - Romsey via Romsey services cope?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Sep 2025 ==

Someone too lazy to change the "via Birmingham New St" line as that was more effort than adding a note?

I've seen "Northampton via Northampton" at Euston before when a Birmingham was being terminated short and presumably someone was too lazy or forgot to change it.

At Kgx i saw Cambridge via Cambridge, when a Kings Lynn 387 was terminated early.

 

[jfollows]

I was at Waterloo last week and boarded a train to “Addlestone” per the station’s boards but when I sat down the train’s robo-announcer immediately told me I was on the train to Weybridge. It struck me as unhelpful to have totally different destinations at the same time. If they’re going to use “false destinations” then they should be consistent.

 

[zwk500]

That is correct however it act as a Looper in effect as run the majority of the route and if not for the flat junction at Weybridge the might be a proper looper. It is much quicker to take a Main Line train to Weybridge from London than a Weybridge on the Windsor Line via Hounslow. There might be justification for calling it Chester service at London Waterloo, Vauxhall and Clapham Junction to discourage use by the people for Weybridge.

'Weybridge via Staines' would be sufficient, no?

Re the Ealing Broadway services - this is a situation where GWR should really consider having separate 'brands' for the IC and Local services, and actually advertise these as the operators. Adding 'Stops all stations' is OK but with limited space on some displays do you really want to dedicate potentially 50% of space to a note saying 'fast' or 'stopper' when you could have 'Thames Valley Trains' or 'Great Western Local' as a separately advertised Operator (like Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern are all part of GTR), so that Punters at Reading know the GWR trains don't stop but the TVT/GWL ones do.

 

[Farnborough]

this is a situation where GWR should really consider having separate 'brands' for the IC and Local services, and actually advertise these as the operators.

We could call the stoppers Thames Trains

 

[Falcon1200]

It struck me as unhelpful to have totally different destinations at the same time.

Is there not some sense in that policy however? At Waterloo passengers have the option of a faster service to Weybridge, once on the slow train they might as well stay there! Plus of course further into the journey the final destination has to be advertised as Weybridge.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Is there not some sense in that policy however? At Waterloo passengers have the option of a faster service to Weybridge, once on the slow train they might as well stay there! Plus of course further into the journey the final destination has to be advertised as Weybridge.

It shouldn't be beyond the ability of modern passenger information systems to display the correct information in an unambiguous manner. For example the departure board on the concourse at Waterloo could display Addlestone as the destination, with a footnote saying "train continues to Weybridge". The on board screens could display "Weybridge via Addlestone" (bold for emphasis, but upper-case would work too if that was easier).
Or simply display Addlestone everywhere (both on board & on external destination displays, and on stations) until the train has departed from Clapham Junction- as anyone wanting Weybridge boarding up to that point* would be better off catching a Woking stopper.

*=By which I mean Waterloo, Vauxhall or Clapham Junction. Queenstown Road is an exception if the service calls there, but I can't imagine there's a large number of passengers making that journey who are also completely unfamiliar with the quirks of the former LSWR!

 

[eldomtom2]

Re the Ealing Broadway services - this is a situation where GWR should really consider having separate 'brands' for the IC and Local services, and actually advertise these as the operators. Adding 'Stops all stations' is OK but with limited space on some displays do you really want to dedicate potentially 50% of space to a note saying 'fast' or 'stopper' when you could have 'Thames Valley Trains' or 'Great Western Local' as a separately advertised Operator (like Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern are all part of GTR), so that Punters at Reading know the GWR trains don't stop but the TVT/GWL ones do.

...or you could just replace the operator on the displays with the service type, since it'll all be GBR soon enough. It'll be much easier for those unfamiliar with the network to figure out what a train being "all stations" means than what a "Thames Valley Trains" service is.
Also, could you upload a photo of the of the displays you think have limited space?

 

[Jimini]

We could call the stoppers Thames Trains