Should "false destinations" be used on slow/circular services?

[MarlowDonkey]

What happens at Reading these days on services destined for Paddington?

It used to be that the stopping local services in the days of 165s and 166s would have Ealing Broadway as the destination. With Elizabeth Line services they presumably now show the true destination, but what of GWR's semi-fast 387s? The last stop on these is Slough.

 

[Krokodil]

Wasn't one of the main reasons for displaying Ealing Broadway that the 16x were very limited in capacity so this would need to be reserved for passengers joining at intermediate stations? Presumably with the advent of both Crossrail and the 387s capacity is no longer a concern, and the time difference between the GWR stopper and the IETs is only 10 minutes so it's not the end of the world if the passenger boards the wrong one.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Circle Line is Inner & Outer Rail I believe

I remember the Didcot Parkway Stoppers for a while were on the Customer Screens at Paddington shown as Cholsey services.
.

And vice versa at Oxford and Didcot Parkway the stopping services to London Paddington saying "Ealing Broadway". I remember asking and it was to encourage passengers to use the faster services. I thought it was and good tactic!

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Wasn't one of the main reasons for displaying Ealing Broadway that the 16x were very limited in capacity so this would need to be reserved for passengers joining at intermediate stations? Presumably with the advent of both Crossrail and the 387s capacity is no longer a concern, and the time difference between the GWR stopper and the IETs is only 10 minutes so it's not the end of the world if the passenger boards the wrong one.

I believe it was to encourage passengers to use the faster HST services to Paddington.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't remember for sure. I think it may have lasted into early Overground days, but was just one of those things one noted in the background.

I have a feeling but may be wrong that it was packed in when the CIS was replaced probably in the mid to late 2000s.

It would certainly have made no sense to do that during the shortish period (in Silverlink days) when Oyster was only valid to Watford on the DC service and not the mainline. This fare was low enough compared to a paper ticket that people would have wanted to use the DC line to save money. So it could have been then.

I do recall that the Solari display installed at WFJ in the mid 2000s (the last one ever to be installed in the UK?) had a permanently printed column for the DC line calling points, but don't recall what it had as the destination nor can I find a photo of it anywhere.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Or perhaps a simpler solution there is not to join random long, meandering services that no-one in their right mind would use for through journeys together, but instead keep them as separate sections, even if they are worked by the same train. (I realise that won't be the solution for most of the examples in this thread though...)

It wasn't much use for end-to-end journeys, but there were regular passengers who used it from Leeds to stations at the northern end of the Penistone line. It wasn't really two random long meandering services, it was two relatively straightforward stopping services which just happened to be joined. This served several purposes, such as providing an additional Huddersfield to Sheffield journey in the evening peak, and transferring an additional unit from Leeds area services to Sheffield.

In later years, that extra Penistone line service was formed with a unit arriving from a service via Bradford and was no longer advertised as a through service... Then when that service was curtailed at Bradford it meant an ECS working from Holbeck to Huddersfield via Healey Mills to form the extra, until it was axed completely a couple of years ago.

 

[brad465]

What happens at Reading these days on services destined for Paddington?

It used to be that the stopping local services in the days of 165s and 166s would have Ealing Broadway as the destination. With Elizabeth Line services they presumably now show the true destination, but what of GWR's semi-fast 387s? The last stop on these is Slough.

I don't know about Reading, but at Paddington there are boards, such as the one leaving the Underground station, that have an * next to trains that are fast to Reading.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or perhaps a simpler solution there is not to join random long, meandering services that no-one in their right mind would use for through journeys together, but instead keep them as separate sections, even if they are worked by the same train. (I realise that won't be the solution for most of the examples in this thread though...)

Thus breaking the "connections" - an example was Ormskirk to Blackpool
passengers being told to wait at Preston for 61 minutes when in fact there was a through train.

 

[BerkshireRails]

I don't know about Reading, but at Paddington there are boards, such as the one leaving the Underground station, that have an * next to trains that are fast to Reading.

Reading has some of those on the overbridge.

 

[Siimo]

A false destination is necessary on the Salisbury-Romsey circular since it calls at Romsey and then runs round the Southampton-Eastleigh loop to terminate back there. From memory trains show Soton Central as the destination from Salisbury and Chandlers Ford as the destination from Romsey. The only annoyances are trying to remember in which direction the train continues to Salisbury (clockwise) and the fact that trains call at St Denys and Swaything only a few minutes apart in opposite directions.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Thus breaking the "connections" - an example was Ormskirk to Blackpool
passengers being told to wait at Preston for 61 minutes when in fact there was a through train.

I believe something very similar happens at the moment with the Colne to Preston services. When they get to Preston xx03 they usually form the xx10 to Ormskirk, but it's not enough time to be an "official" connection.

It's been pointed out to me that at Blackburn their xx18 trains to Rochdale get to Rochdale after the xx20 to Headbolt Lane. Presumably this causes confusion as anyone going to Rochdale would unsurprisingly board the Rochdale train.

Additionally a separate issue with the destination Rochdale trains at Blackburn is that many people will want to go to Manchester on them but the departure screens don't mention Manchester. Only if you look at the calling points screens on the platforms are you able to see it calls at Manchester Victoria.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I believe something very similar happens at the moment with the Colne to Preston services. When they get to Preston xx03 they usually form the xx10 to Ormskirk, but it's not enough time to be an "official" connection.

Yes, that way it's still a dud connection. The Blackpool one is no longer a through service as the unit waits at Preston for a chunk of time - before that the service was horribly unpunctual as there wasn't enough layover.

I think Northern decided they didn't want to advertise through services because people would ask why they were only in one direction. It's a fair point, but to be honest with the extra unit in the circuit I don't get why they don't just separate one of them off again (whichever works best in terms of doing hourly with two units) and run the other both ways as a through service rather than the three pointed star which just cross pollinates delays and no longer saves a unit over just putting two on Ormskirk with very long layovers (say).

 

[stevieinselby]

Thus breaking the "connections" - an example was Ormskirk to Blackpool
passengers being told to wait at Preston for 61 minutes when in fact there was a through train.

It shouldn't be beyond the wit of the online timetables to link the journeys together where they are run by a through train.

 

[Jim Jehosofat]

In my youth there were several London Bridge to London Bridge rounders which were identfied to the ops staff as something like SCT/TCS, FCT/TCF, FSW/WSF and other codes depending on the route taken. My memory doesn't recall the codes, but FSW may have been Forest Hill, Sutton, Wimbledon. I do remember that the destination displayed at London Bridge would differ to that at New Cross Gate or Peckham Rye and probably other stops enroute before being advertised as a London Bridge service. I think the complete round trip took something like 90 minutes.

 

[Kite159]

A false destination is necessary on the Salisbury-Romsey circular since it calls at Romsey and then runs round the Southampton-Eastleigh loop to terminate back there. From memory trains show Soton Central as the destination from Salisbury and Chandlers Ford as the destination from Romsey. The only annoyances are trying to remember in which direction the train continues to Salisbury (clockwise) and the fact that trains call at St Denys and Swaything only a few minutes apart in opposite directions.

Announced as Chandler's Ford at Salisbury and on the train until after Romsey (1st call). From Redbridge it's announced as Romsey on the train. Heading the other way round from Romsey its announced as Redbridge until Chandler's Ford when it becomes the Salisbury train.

(Other than the morning one which run the opposite way round which gets announced as Redbridge)

 

[mmh]

Honestly baffling as to why they didn’t just use clockwise or anticlockwise, it is obviously much simpler. Doubt we’ll ever know the reasoning there though!

Clearly it should have been "inner circle" and "outer circle"

 

[JohnRegular]

The Romsey-Salisbury trains were advertised as being for Romsey at Romsey in the not so distant past - I have a photo somewhere.

Not sure if the trains starting at Romsey going to Salisbury were advertised as such before going around the loop, but if a false destination isn't justified in that instance (where you end up exactly where you started before heading to the destination) then it never is!

 

[The exile]

That's what I mean. It does "calling at " the main stops, THEN announces the request stops separately. That is totally counter to anything else on the railway, even where there are request stops. If your station isn't in that initial list it does create concern. There are ways it could be clearer though I agree it is a challenge.

I would imagine that issue will be solved when the 197s take over. I forget how request stops are indicated on those but I would imagine with the better screens it is probably clearer.

Several services on lines with request stops I’ve been on recently (including the HoW) haven’t mentioned the request stops at all. Most recent was Newquay.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

I’m a fan of false destinations. I’m on a Reigate and Gatwick Airport (all stations from Purley) and I’m sure there will be Gatwick passengers who will get on, take an hour to get there and wonder. 35 mins via the faster trains.

 

[BerkshireRails]

On Sunday (24th of August) I was heading to the Ashford open day and noticed that the South Eastern High Speed services show a false destination as this service heading to Ramsgate.

Platform 12
09:04
Sandwich
via Dover Priory

 

[gallafent]

And vice versa at Oxford and Didcot Parkway the stopping services to London Paddington saying "Ealing Broadway". I remember asking and it was to encourage passengers to use the faster services. I thought it was and good tactic!

My colleagues who assumed that the stated destination was the actual destination and got off at Ealing Broadway (which was falsely stated as the destination) on the way back to London from Oxford on a late night service, then having to take some other mode of transport onwards into the city, would disagree. Stating the actual, real, destination of the train, is the only remotely sensible option. Use words and phrases such as "all stations", "stopping", "fast" "non-stop", "express", etc. (pick a set that matches the line), and even "this train is overtaken by the xx:xx, passengers for X should wait for that train" in the larger displays are far more sensible.

 

[Jimini]

My colleagues who assumed that the stated destination was the actual destination and got off at Ealing Broadway (which was falsely stated as the destination) on the way back to London from Oxford on a late night service, then having to take some other mode of transport onwards into the city, would disagree. Stating the actual, real, destination of the train, is the only remotely sensible option. Use words and phrases such as "all stations", "stopping", "fast" "non-stop", "express", etc. (pick a set that matches the line), and even "this train is overtaken by the xx:xx, passengers for X should wait for that train" in the larger displays are far more sensible.

They always said Paddington on the actual train displays / announcements, didn’t they? It was only the station displays / announcements that had Ealing Broadway as the “destination”?

 

[Bletchleyite]

They always said Paddington on the actual train displays / announcements, didn’t they? It was only the station displays / announcements that had Ealing Broadway as the “destination”?

Which is doubly confusing, and I think was the reason the Scouts I mentioned above were confused - station displays saying one thing, train saying the other.

It's particularly off with Oxford because traditionally evening peak restrictions applied to the fast services but not the stoppers so you need to know to be able to use them!

Adding a note "local stopping service" is the way to do it.

 

[Jimini]

Maybe do the reverse of what they do at Paddington and put an asterisk next to the non-stop services at Oxford and Reading, along with a footnote explaining the notation used?

 

[Krokodil]

Talking of circuitous route and CIS screens, I was at Crewe the other day and a Scotland-Birmingham-London was being diverted down the Trent Valley to make up time. So on the screens it was the train to "London Euston via Birmingham New Street - not via West Midlands"

Work that logic out!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Talking of circuitous route and CIS screens, I was at Crewe the other day and a Scotland-Birmingham-London was being diverted down the Trent Valley to make up time. So on the screens it was the train to "London Euston via Birmingham New Street - not via West Midlands"

Work that logic out!

Someone too lazy to change the "via Birmingham New St" line as that was more effort than adding a note?

I've seen "Northampton via Northampton" at Euston before when a Birmingham was being terminated short and presumably someone was too lazy or forgot to change it.

 

[Krokodil]

Someone too lazy to change the "via Birmingham New St" line as that was more effort than adding a note?

Or unable to

I've seen "Northampton via Northampton" at Euston before when a Birmingham was being terminated short and presumably someone was too lazy or forgot to change it.

"[Holyhead to] Shrewsbury via Birmingham New Street" is one I've seen a few times.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

My colleagues who assumed that the stated destination was the actual destination and got off at Ealing Broadway (which was falsely stated as the destination) on the way back to London from Oxford on a late night service, then having to take some other mode of transport onwards into the city, would disagree. Stating the actual, real, destination of the train, is the only remotely sensible option. Use words and phrases such as "all stations", "stopping", "fast" "non-stop", "express", etc. (pick a set that matches the line), and even "this train is overtaken by the xx:xx, passengers for X should wait for that train" in the larger displays are far more sensible.

Was this recently? If so did all the on train announcements and the fact that other passengers didn’t all get off pass them by?

 

[Falcon1200]

My colleagues who assumed that the stated destination was the actual destination and got off at Ealing Broadway

Would the reason for that particular false destination not have been that there was a later, faster train to Paddington? Not however an issue at Oxford for the last few years.....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would the reason for that particular false destination not have been that there was a later, faster train to Paddington?

Yes, but it's misleading and confusing. Better to be honest and add a note.