EMR expanding penalty fares area

[modernrail]

What happens if you do want a cross London ticket from one of the machines that does not issue CCST tickets? Does it block the option?

I agree on chat gpt. However, in this case it has ended up being more accurate on the question than EMR’s own website. Interestingly by pulling the information from South Western Trains website. So a company that runs trains from Waterloo to Surbiton has managed to be more accurate than the company that runs the station.

Screenshots attached showing respective information from SWT and EMT.

 

[sot]

So called 'Smart' TVM at Longport today, expect to be able to collect an TOD, no dice.

It would be nice to say what the machine can and can't do readily on the platform rather than making an individual mess around trying to find a relevant menu.

Forgive the cynical thought, but would they make more mone/commission selling tickets on the machine than TODs?

It says on their website the list of functions that their 'Smart' TVM doesn't do, what a waste of time.

I also wonder if the systems where you are offered a place to collect tickets (I know that this listing doesn't really do anything now) state that these locations aren't actually suitable to collect tickets from?

 

[Starmill]

None of the eticket machines can do ToD.

If you attempt a booking online from Longport and ToD is the only option you should be given a clear warning. Here's Trainsplit:

 

[Baxenden Bank]

From back in 2021:

East Midlands Railway to offer country's first 'Smart Kiosk' ticket machines

Tuesday, 26 January 2021

East Midlands Railway to offer country’s first ‘Smart Kiosk’ ticket machines

First of a kind machines to support barcode and Smart Card ticket options
More intuitive and user friendly making it easier to find the cheapest fares
Includes real time travel information for passengers

East Midlands Railway is introducing the country's first 'Smart Kiosk' ticket machines - making it simpler and easier to buy the cheapest fares with the newest technology.

EMR’s new Smart Kiosks will issue both advance and walk up tickets as a printed bar code instead of the old-fashioned orange paper tickets. Passengers who book in advance, can also collect their pre-purchased Smart Card tickets onto their Smart Card for journeys in the future.

Later this year, the Smart Kiosks will be able to instantly retail Smart Card tickets when passengers buy their tickets from the machine.

Unlike older ticket vending machines, Smart Kiosks can be constantly updated and offer the full range of tickets for travel. The software has also been completely redesigned to make it much easier to find the best and cheapest fares available, regardless of whether you want to travel immediately or in the future.

Lucy Dean, Head of Commercial Strategy and Transformation at EMR said: “This is such an exciting time for East Midlands Railway.

View attachment 186983

“Smart Kiosks will support the industry's ambition for increasing Smart ticket take up and reducing ticketless travel by offering more opportunities to purchase tickets and doing so in a Smart way. To be the first TOC to do so is a great achievement.

“With the Smart Kiosks being much more user friendly, we hope our passengers on our regional routes will see the benefits of them as they are installed across our network throughout 2021”.

The first Smart Kiosks have been installed at Derby and Uttoxeter stations. An additional 28 machines will be installed late August / early September this year.

EMR has worked with both SilverRail and Cammax, leading suppliers in new generation Smart Kiosks across different sectors. Together they have developed a new Smart Kiosk that can offer the same flexibility and pricing to passengers that they have come to expect from online ticket purchases.

The Smart Kiosk uses the same Ticket Issuing System (SilverCore) and UK Journey Planner that SilverRail uses for supporting customers through web and App rail retailing stores. With the ability to buy tickets up to 90 days out and take advantage of on-the-day advanced ticket pricing, passengers will now have more access to cheaper fares.

EMR will also be continuing to work with Cammax and SilverRail to improve these machines in the future. The Kiosks currently print barcoded eTickets instead of the traditional orange paper tickets with a magnetic stripe on the back.

David Pitt, Head of UK Rail at SilverRail said: “We are as delighted as our colleagues at East Midlands Railway, to see the Cammax / SilverRail Smart Kiosk finally launch.

“We are all extremely pleased to provide passengers with access to a full range of eTickets that will allow everyone to access the same fare offers that you can otherwise access online.

“We already have ideas on how we can improve on this and bring even more innovative services to the kiosk.”

Julian Rooney, Managing Director at Cammax said: “It has long been our ambition to help the rail industry deliver innovative and flexible retailing.”

“We have been supplying Smart Ticketing Machines to the Transportation Market for many years and are delighted to have launched our first Smart Rail TVMs in partnership with SilverRail.”

“We are very much looking forward to exploring and delivering additional functionality and services that will help EMR improve their customer offering further.”

There should be an image in that quote which has a large sticker on the front of the machine which says "buy and collect tickets here".

I haven't tried for a few months but Blythe Bridge doesn't do collect either.

The single machine is also in an inconvenient location for Derby bound passengers. You have to arrive many minutes early in order to ensure you have your ticket and can cross the level crossing before the sometimes rather enthusiastic signalman puts the barriers down well in advance of the train departure time. Not helped by the speedy Class 170's still running in knackered old Class 153 timings.

 

[RichardAsh1981]

Anyway, within the EMR context the bigger points are probably machines that simply don’t allow pick up. I don’t understand why they would not have that functionality as they are clearly issuing some sort of paper tickets otherwise they wouldn’t exist.

Why would they not be able to allow you to pick up a pre booked ticket? Because they can’t connect to the reservations system or something like that?

I believe this is the issue, to collect TOD tickets there needs to be a connection to the back end system, which raises the costs. Needed so that the system knows they have been collected.

Certainly Capenhurst (unstaffed) ticket machine has never been able to do ticket collection - an issue if traveling to Chester which has barriers - although it does now accept Contactless payments (probably a completely independent communication link for that).

 

[Haywain]

to collect TOD tickets there needs to be a connection to the back end system,

There also needs to be a CCST printer.

 

[AlterEgo]

I asked chat gpt what might be going on with the Alsager machine and it suggests it’s a cheaper model/has been set up without the software that is capable of printing a seat reservation.

The new Smart Kiosk machines there are simply not set up for ToD - the context being that it is a fulfilment method which is in managed decline and will eventually be phased out. Nothing to do with being able to issue seat reservations or not; these kiosks can issue Advances, on paper too - via a barcode.

Asking ChatGPT instead of Britain's leading rail forum is an interesting choice. ChatGPT's guess it might be cheaper is interesting, and probably false, as the Smart Kiosk machines instead have new smartcard functionality, a fulfilment method the railway is looking to push.

One thing I encourage people to do with AI is to use ChatGPT to source answers to questions they are subject matter experts in. You will then never ask it anything again.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Aug 2025 ==

I believe this is the issue, to collect TOD tickets there needs to be a connection to the back end system, which raises the costs.

It doesn't raise the cost of the machine if the machine already needs to be internet connected to issue smart tickets and reservation-only tickets like Advances.

 

[Wallsendmag]

All this is interesting especially given my previous role for the last two years but not exactly on topic

 

[modernrail]

All this is interesting especially given my previous role for the last two years but not exactly on topic

It is on topic. What happens if you buy a ticket and it tells you you can’t collect from, for instance, Alsager and tells you the nearest station you can collect from is Stoke on Trent.

Are you subject to a penalty fare if you travel from Alsager to Stoke on Trent without having collected your tickets? Or are you expected to drive to Stoke on Trent, collect the ticket, drive back, get on the train?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Aug 2025 ==

The new Smart Kiosk machines there are simply not set up for ToD - the context being that it is a fulfilment method which is in managed decline and will eventually be phased out. Nothing to do with being able to issue seat reservations or not; these kiosks can issue Advances, on paper too - via a barcode.

Asking ChatGPT instead of Britain's leading rail forum is an interesting choice. ChatGPT's guess it might be cheaper is interesting, and probably false, as the Smart Kiosk machines instead have new smartcard functionality, a fulfilment method the railway is looking to push.

One thing I encourage people to do with AI is to use ChatGPT to source answers to questions they are subject matter experts in. You will then never ask it anything again.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Aug 2025 ==


It doesn't raise the cost of the machine if the machine already needs to be internet connected to issue smart tickets and reservation-only tickets like Advances.

Yes I think we all understand that ChatGPT is not the gospel truth. Then again, neither are the Gospels and nor is EMR’s own website or the National Rail website in this case.

I still don’t understand why some tickets are only offered as ToD when the departure station cannot print them. Whilst that option is in managed decline but not eradicated, the machine should be able to print them or you should be offered an e-ticket.

If you board in these circumstances, are you entitled to travel, having bought the ticket but not able to print it out until you get to a station where you can (assuming you have time to during the change, can navigate any barriers etc etc)

 

[Hadders]

It is on topic. What happens if you buy a ticket and it tells you you can’t collect from, for instance, Alsager and tells you the nearest station you can collect from is Stoke on Trent.

Are you subject to a penalty fare if you travel from Alsager to Stoke on Trent without having collected your tickets? Or are you expected to drive to Stoke on Trent, collect the ticket, drive back, get on the train?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Aug 2025 ==


Yes I think we all understand that ChatGPT is not the gospel truth. Then again, neither are the Gospels and nor is EMR’s own website or the National Rail website in this case.

I still don’t understand why some tickets are only offered as ToD when the departure station cannot print them. Whilst that option is in managed decline but not eradicated, the machine should be able to print them or you should be offered an e-ticket.

If you board in these circumstances, are you entitled to travel, having bought the ticket but not able to print it out until you get to a station where you can (assuming you have time to during the change, can navigate any barriers etc etc)

Legally speaking you are required to possess a ticket before you board the train.

You aren’t required to book online or use a smartphone to purchase a ticket, but you are required to use a working ticket machine (or open ticket office) to purchase a ticket for your journey.

If ToD is not available at your starting station, then I’d expect customers to be warned about this when they purchase tickets. This means the passenger can decide whether to visit another station to collect the ticket, or choose postal delivery.

 

[Haywain]

Are you subject to a penalty fare if you travel from Alsager to Stoke on Trent without having collected your tickets? Or are you expected to drive to Stoke on Trent, collect the ticket, drive back, get on the train?

If you board in these circumstances, are you entitled to travel, having bought the ticket but not able to print it out until you get to a station where you can (assuming you have time to during the change, can navigate any barriers etc etc)

Two questions, same answer - you are required to collect the ticket prior to travelling and every ticket retailing website will tell you at which stations it can be collected. Caveat emptor.

 

[tocguard]

The single machine is also in an inconvenient location for Derby bound passengers. You have to arrive many minutes early in order to ensure you have your ticket and can cross the level crossing before the sometimes rather enthusiastic signalman puts the barriers down well in advance of the train departure time. Not helped by the speedy Class 170's still running in knackered old Class 153 timings.

Caverswall signaller has the barriers start going down as the train passes Cresswell in the down direction and as it leaves Longton before even getting into Meir Tunnel in the up direction. If it was left any later then the driver would see restrictive aspects.

You're very much mistaken if you believe 170s are "speedy", especially in their acceleration. At least two other routes had to have their timetables changed to allow more running time since their introduction led to awful performance stats. It is still acknowledged the performance on the Crewe route isn't where it should be, which in many cases is down to the same problem. Some minor timings were altered with little effect.

 

[modernrail]

Two questions, same answer - you are required to collect the ticket prior to travelling and every ticket retailing website will tell you at which stations it can be collected. Caveat emptor.

So if you live in Alsager or any other station with this TVM type you cannot buy online a ticket that involves cross London travel (not exactly an unlikely scenario) or a ticket with any bike reservations.

Not so Smart TVM then. So much for the ability to buy a ticket from any station to any station, which is meant to be the principle.

I am still unclear as to what happens if you turn up at Alsager and want to buy a cross-London ticket. With its lack of basic functionality are you expected to travel to Stoke, possibly miss the next connection, go to the ticket machine and either collect the tickets for your onwards journey or buy them?

Out of interest, does the guard on the train’s machine possess the capability the not fit for purpose TVM is lacking - to print a ToD?

 

[Haywain]

So if you live in Alsager or any other station with this TVM type you cannot buy online a ticket that involves cross London travel (not exactly an unlikely scenario) or a ticket with any bike reservations.

Well, you can buy them but you must make arrangements to collect from a suitable station prior to travel.

I am still unclear as to what happens if you turn up at Alsager and want to buy a cross-London ticket.

If the station does not have facilities to sell you a ticket for the journey you are making you are permitted to board the train without a ticket and buy one at the earliest opportunity.

 

[LowLevel]

The guard can print them provided TOD recall is working on their device *and* provided it doesn't cover a cross London journey (can't print on paper roll at the moment) but TOD recall frequently doesn't work on the mobile machines, not sure whether it's software or hardware issues.

EMR have always had an internal policy that TOD ticket holders boarding at stations without such facility can either print their tickets with the guard or at an interchange, that one goes back years.

 

[Watershed]

EMR have always had an internal policy that TOD ticket holders boarding at stations without such facility can either print their tickets with the guard or at an interchange, that one goes back years.

Would be rather useful if they publicised this rather than (effectively) relying on a hidden policy.

 

[LowLevel]

Would be rather useful if they publicised this rather than (effectively) relying on a hidden policy.

There used to be little signs up in the waiting shelters to start with (of course TOD was far more widespread back then) - I suppose not alienating the holder of a 3 figure sum ticket for the sake of letting them pick it up after a connecting move was seen to be more important at the time! Signs are long gone though.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

If you board in these circumstances, are you entitled to travel, having bought the ticket but not able to print it out until you get to a station where you can (assuming you have time to during the change, can navigate any barriers etc etc)

Having arrived at Blythe Bridge under similar circumstances to the OP, I twitted EMR and was told I could board the train without having collected. I can't recall the exact words of advice received. I haven't bothered with TOD since and either buy an e-ticket from the 'forum site' or attempt to use the infernal kiosk menu. I mean, really, why is there not a 'buy now' button at the end of the process?

 

[modernrail]

Would be rather useful if they publicised this rather than (effectively) relying on a hidden policy.

Exactly.

I don’t necessarily object to not spending lots of money on functionality that is likely to be redundant very soon. Although it is still unclear to me why it would cost lots more for the TVMs to be set up to print ToD not involving a cross London change or a bike reservation. It it still very unclear to me that the cross London thing is being resolved soon.

I do however strongly object to the railway not being very clear about how you deal with a common situation.

If you board at Alsager to go to let’s say Guildford, what is the reality of your journey. You can’t buy it online because you live in Alsager, not Stoke. You can’t buy at the TVM because it can’t issue a ticket that works for cross London travel. You can’t buy from the guard because they can’t issue that sort of ticket either. You only have 10 minutes to change at Crewe and can’t get out of the gateline because you don’t have a ticket to. Therefore your first opportunity to buy is on the Avanti service? Can they issue cross London tickets?

It is highly unsatisfactory and led to me sitting on a train without a ticket and no way of knowing what the right answer was, and so worrying about a penalty fare.

Meanwhile they have managed to spend time and effort loading itinerary information on TVMs which is in most cases at best not useful (because 90% of people have looked up the journey before they get there) and in lots of cases misleading because it makes you think you are buying a ticket for a particular journey rather than the much wider usage it actually has. Yet you can’t buy an advance ticket from an itinerary driven TVM? ….which would the one valid use of it. But one that would hardly ever be used because most people would buy it online.

 

[RichardAsh1981]

There also needs to be a CCST printer.

Fair point. The machine at Capenhurst only prints on orange cards - even the credit card receipt, if you pay by card, comes out on one.

The new Smart Kiosk machines there are simply not set up for ToD - the context being that it is a fulfilment method which is in managed decline and will eventually be phased out.

Has anyone told Merseyrail about this? They don't seem to want to do eticket (as opposed to smart card) at all.

It doesn't raise the cost of the machine if the machine already needs to be internet connected to issue smart tickets and reservation-only tickets like Advances.

As far as I know, the machine at Capenhurst can't do either of those either - it will only do 7 day seasons at all, for anything else you have to go and see a booking office at another station.

 

[sheff1]

Have they installed sub par ticket machines though? T

Definitely.

 

[Class800]

Personally speaking, I think we're getting close to the point where a ticket machine should be provided at every station and there should be a requirement to purchase a ticket before boarding, or obtain a promise to pay.

Agree, however if there are any changes made to the current arrangements, I would anticipate i) mobile ticketing will be considered an opportunity to pay and ii) non-availability of your preferred ticket on the machine will no longer be relevant. Effectively, we'll become like many European rail systems. Not sure it would be a good move.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I think we're actually getting to the point where TVMs aren't required at larger stations. Ticketing is getting more complex and cEMV is getting more popular.

 

[sheff1]

I think we're actually getting to the point where TVMs aren't required at larger stations. Ticketing is getting more complex and cEMV is getting more popular.

When I was at Edinburgh Waverley last week there were queues for the TVMs and longer queues in the now rather hidden away booking office. If the TVMs were removed presumably the booking office queues would be even longer.

Interesting that you believe ticketing is getting more complex when LNER claim it has been simplified.

What is a cEMV ?

 

[Haywain]

cEMV is getting more popular.

cEMV????

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2025 ==

When I was at Edinburgh Waverley last week there were queues for the TVMs and longer queues in the now rather hidden away booking office. If the TVMs were removed presumably the booking office queues would be even longer.

That's mainly down to Scotrail's ticketing policies.

 

[sheff1]

That's mainly down to Scotrail's ticketing policies.

Presumably those policies are going to change if TVMs soon aren't going to be required at stations such as Waverley ?

 

[Wallsendmag]

cEMV????

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2025 ==


That's mainly down to Scotrail's ticketing policies.

Contactless Eurocard Mastercard Visa. Have you seen ScotRail's new PAYG app?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2025 ==

When I was at Edinburgh Waverley last week there were queues for the TVMs and longer queues in the now rather hidden away booking office. If the TVMs were removed presumably the booking office queues would be even longer.

Interesting that you believe ticketing is getting more complex when LNER claim it has been simplified.

What is a cEMV ?

Edinburgh during the Festival isn't a good example of anything

 

[sheff1]

Edinburgh during the Festival isn't a good example of anything

Seems like a good example of why the idea that TVMs are not required at large stations may not necessarily be a good one.

I will be passing through Waverley again soon, will be interesting to see what the situation is like now the Festival has finished.

 

[Llandudno]

S

cEMV????

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2025 ==


That's mainly down to Scotrail's ticketing policies

Surely Scotrail removing Peak time fares is simplifying the ticketing structure?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What is a cEMV ?

Think it means 'contactless EMV'. It's essentially a pay-as-you-go smart card (and various other devices as well) payment system.

EMV in turn means 'Europay, Mastercard and Visa' the three payment firms that have been involved in setting up the standard.