EMR expanding penalty fares area

[thenorthern]

Just seen this from EMR.

East Midlands Railway announces expansion of Penalty Fare Routes to help reduce fare evasion​

• EMR is expanding its network of Penalty Fare Routes to reduce fare evasion and protect taxpayers money
• The extension is covering Belper to Matlock, Nottingham – Crewe (extension of the existing route between Nottingham and Derby), Nottingham – Liverpool (in line with TransPennine Express and Northern’s existing Penalty Fare route) and Peterborough – Doncaster

East Midlands Railway (EMR) is expanding its network of Penalty Fare Routes as part of a wider effort to reduce fare evasion and ensure fairness for fare-paying customers.

East Midlands Railway announces expansion of Penalty Fare Routes to help reduce fare evasion | East Midlands Railway News

EMR is expanding its network of Penalty Fare Routes to reduce fare evasion and protect taxpayers money The extension is covering Belper to Matlock, Nottingham – Crewe (extension of the existing route between Nottingham and Derby), Nottingham – Liverpool (in line with TransPennine Express and...

news.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk

Given that all EMR stations have ticket machines now it makes sense to increase the penalty fare area.

 

[Banham7]

Just seen this from EMR.



Given that all EMR stations have ticket machines now it makes sense to increase the penalty fare area.

Most, but not all. Stations such as Peartree do not have ticket machines. Quite a few stations on the Regional network have "Smart TVMs" which only accept card, and can be quite buggy at times on whether they want to work or not. It will be interesting how this pans out.

 

[1D54]

Most, but not all. Stations such as Peartree do not have ticket machines. Quite a few stations on the Regional network have "Smart TVMs" which only accept card, and can be quite buggy at times on whether they want to work or not. It will be interesting how this pans out.

Don't own a card will be the response of any fare dodgers at such stations so good luck with that one. Can't fault EMR, or any other TOC coming out with any statement that helps put an end to fare avoidance but the fact they need to do it tells them everything they need to know on problem routes. TMs on Derby-Crewe services are on the ball but not sure with the others.

 

[thenorthern]

Most, but not all. Stations such as Peartree do not have ticket machines. Quite a few stations on the Regional network have "Smart TVMs" which only accept card, and can be quite buggy at times on whether they want to work or not. It will be interesting how this pans out.

Don't own a card will be the response of any fare dodgers at such stations so good luck with that one. Can't fault EMR, or any other TOC coming out with any statement that helps put an end to fare avoidance but the fact they need to do it tells them everything they need to know on problem routes. TMs on Derby-Crewe services are on the ball but not sure with the others.

I will admit the "Promise to Pay" system for those wanting to pay by cash is a bit confusing. The good old PERTIS machines were a lot easier to understand.

 

[Kite159]

Most, but not all. Stations such as Peartree do not have ticket machines. Quite a few stations on the Regional network have "Smart TVMs" which only accept card, and can be quite buggy at times on whether they want to work or not. It will be interesting how this pans out.

Would be wasteful for stations such as Peartree to get ticket machine (s) considering the rubbish level of service the station gets [although that didn't stop Southern installing one at Doleham!]

Thankfully these days there is a wonderful invention called the Interweb where you can buy tickets from the EMR website to display on your phone if the TVM decides to mess around, which I can see at some point the NRCOT being changed to take into account the rise of mobile phone ticketing as a chance to buy a ticket before you board (doesn't TfW already do something similar with their own Penalty Fare scheme)

 

[STINT47]

I can see at some point the NRCOT being changed to take into account the rise of mobile phone ticketing as a chance to buy a ticket before you board

I would be strongly against this. Not everyone wants a smartphone and it shouldn't be compulsory to carry one. It would be saying you cannot use the train if your station doesn't have working ticketing facilities and you chose not to carry a phone.

There is also the issue of battery life. If you arrive at the station and found the machine was out of action and that you only had 10% power remaining should you not travel?. Can people really be expected to keep their phones charged just in case the railway cannot provide working equipment?

 

[Hadders]

Personally speaking, I think we're getting close to the point where a ticket machine should be provided at every station and there should be a requirement to purchase a ticket before boarding, or obtain a promise to pay.

 

[thenorthern]

I would be strongly against this. Not everyone wants a smartphone and it shouldn't be compulsory to carry one. It would be saying you cannot use the train if your station doesn't have working ticketing facilities and you chose not to carry a phone.

There is also the issue of battery life. If you arrive at the station and found the machine was out of action and that you only had 10% power remaining should you not travel?. Can people really be expected to keep their phones charged just in case the railway cannot provide working equipment?

Totally agree, whenever I fly on a budget airline like Ryanair or Easyjet I always get the print at home tickets. Sure I have to pay for the ink but I don't want to be stuck in Dublin without a ticket due to my phone being dead.

Same with the trains I don't think I have ever used an M-Ticket.

 

[The exile]

Personally speaking, I think we're getting close to the point where a ticket machine should be provided at every station and there should be a requirement to purchase a ticket before boarding, or obtain a promise to pay.

I’d look at it from a different perspective. All stations in a penalty fare area must have a minimum of one ticket machine at each entrance and those ticket machines must have the “permit to travel” available with a single click from the start menu and also issue all tickets valid for immediate travel from that station.

 

[modernrail]

Have they installed sub par ticket machines though? The one at Alsager doesn’t allow you to pick up tickets.

Also, why would they install a machine that doesn’t allow you to pick up tickets when there are clearly machines available that do?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Aug 2025 ==

I’d look at it from a different perspective. All stations in a penalty fare area must have a minimum of one ticket machine at each entrance and those ticket machines must have the “permit to travel” available with a single click from the start menu and also issue all tickets valid for immediate travel from that station.

And you would need to educate people so they know what a permit to travel is. I would guess 90+% of passengers have no idea.

 

[Haywain]

I don't think I have ever used an M-Ticket

But you are regularly using eTickets, which is what the railway is mainly selling.

 

[thenorthern]

But you are regularly using eTickets, which is what the railway is mainly selling.

For Ryanair yes although I don't think I have ever used an e-ticket on the railway, I always use the railway issued paper tickets from TVM or the booking office.

 

[Watershed]

I’d look at it from a different perspective. All stations in a penalty fare area must have a minimum of one ticket machine at each entrance and those ticket machines must have the “permit to travel” available with a single click from the start menu and also issue all tickets valid for immediate travel from that station.

Stations don't actually need a ticket machine to be included in a Penalty Fare scheme. As bizarre as it sounds, some stations fall into that category. It's done so that PFs can still be charged if the passenger fails to buy a ticket at the first opportunity (e.g. when the guard comes through the train).

Have they installed sub par ticket machines though? The one at Alsager doesn’t allow you to pick up tickets.

Does it not have that facility at all, or is it just that it's limited to issuing eTickets (which means it can't issue cross-London, Underground Zonal or Travelcard tickets)?

Also, why would they install a machine that doesn’t allow you to pick up tickets when there are clearly machines available that do?

In a word, cost. Paper ticket stock is specialised and expensive compared to the ordinary till roll/paper they can use for eTickets. The magnetic strip encoders also fail more often than a normal printer, and they're expensive to buy and maintain.

It's not a totally crazy idea in general, but:

a) the tickets it issues need to be a reasonable size (i.e. not the comically oversized PRT)

b) it needs to be made very clear that anyone who's unable to collect their ticket at the station, or to buy the ticket they want (because of the lack of CCST capability) is entitled to buy/collect onboard without penalty.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Stations don't actually need a ticket machine to be included in a Penalty Fare scheme. As bizarre as it sounds, some stations fall into that category. It's done so that PFs can still be charged if the passenger fails to buy a ticket at the first opportunity (e.g. when the guard comes through the train).


Does it not have that facility at all, or is it just that it's limited to issuing eTickets (which means it can't issue cross-London, Underground Zonal or Travelcard tickets)?


In a word, cost. Paper ticket stock is specialised and expensive compared to the ordinary till roll/paper they can use for eTickets. The magnetic strip encoders also fail more often than a normal printer, and they're expensive to buy and maintain.

It's not a totally crazy idea in general, but:

a) the tickets it issues need to be a reasonable size (i.e. not the comically oversized PRT)

b) it needs to be made very clear that anyone who's unable to collect their ticket at the station, or to buy the ticket they want (because of the lack of CCST capability) is entitled to buy/collect onboard without penalty.

You'll be glad to know PRT is shrinking by 1/3rd within 12 months

 

[Watershed]

You'll be glad to know PRT is shrinking by 1/3rd within 12 months

1/3 smaller would still be about 50% too large. They should be able to be folded to be CCST-sized.

 

[modernrail]

1/3 smaller would still be about 50% too large. They should be able to be folded to be CCST-sized.

Yes why is it so comically large. Did somebody just forget to think about about that? Presumably it as easy to make something of a normal credit card size ticket come out rather than something so huge (which will also cost more over time). It really does increase the chance of losing the ticket. I am not a conspiracy theorist but wondered if that is actually the intention because I cannot otherwise see how you end up with such a silly solution. It is not like the entire planet is not really pretty aware of the fact that these things should be credit card size to pop into your wallet etc.

The ticket machine at Alsager does not let you collect tickets at all as far as I am aware. I presume other EMR stations have be same problem.

I haven’t actually bought a paper ticket from that machine. Would it pop out as one these clown tickets rather than normal credit card size standard.

 

[The exile]

Stations don't actually need a ticket machine to be included in a Penalty Fare scheme. As bizarre as it sounds, some stations fall into that category. It's done so that PFs can still be charged if the passenger fails to buy a ticket at the first opportunity (e.g. when the guard comes through the train

But that’s precisely the kind of inconsistency that makes a mockery of strictly enforced regulations.

 

[Kite159]

But that’s precisely the kind of inconsistency that makes a mockery of strictly enforced regulations.

Not really, some stations the usage is either too low to warrant the investment with TVMs (ie Peartree or other EMR stations which only have a tiny number of calls a day) or are in areas where the TVM will likely get smashed up by local youths for a laugh.

If the guard walks through saying something like 'any tickets from station X' (where station X is the station in question) and nobody buys a ticket then that is enough for revenue to 'pounce'. At least for Millbrook/Redbridge/Dean/Dunbridge on SWR.

 

[Hadders]

1/3 smaller would still be about 50% too large. They should be able to be folded to be CCST-sized.

Agreed. Being able to fold a PRT ticket in half and it be credit card sized would be great, and very user friendly.

I haven’t actually bought a paper ticket from that machine. Would it pop out as one these clown tickets rather than normal credit card size standard.

I’m not familiar with the TVM at Alsager but I think EMR have some TVMs that print collected tickets on white till roll paper.

As for what’s a normal ticket, yesterday I travelled on LNER from Doncaster to Kings Cross. The train was very busy. The train manager conducted a full ticket check and in the coach I was in (all seats taken) I was the only person who presented a credit card sized ticket. And that was only because the ticket I was using included a cross-London transfer.

I’d say that CCST is not the ‘normal’ style ticket these days. A barcode ticket is whether presented on paper or a screen.

 

[modernrail]

Agreed. Being able to fold a PRT ticket in half and it be credit card sized would be great, and very user friendly.


I’m not familiar with the TVM at Alsager but I think EMR have some TVMs that print collected tickets on white till roll paper.

As for what’s a normal ticket, yesterday I travelled on LNER from Doncaster to Kings Cross. The train was very busy. The train manager conducted a full ticket check and in the coach I was in (all seats taken) I was the only person who presented a credit card sized ticket. And that was only because the ticket I was using included a cross-London transfer.

I’d say that CCST is not the ‘normal’ style ticket these days. A barcode ticket is whether presented on paper or a screen.

Agreed a bar code ticket it the norm but when it needs to be printed, it is a bit silly that the industry has let it be printed on something other than a credit card size piece of card. It is extremely easy to lose non-credit card size pieces of card.

It really does seem like a case of it wasn’t broken, and this new set of variables on top of the existing and acknowledged complicated set of ticketing variables certainly doesn’t fix it.

I probably end up with paper tickets about 1/5th of the time and every time it comes out on clown paper I have to remember to be very careful not to throw it away like a bit of waste paper. Where do they think you are going to put the damn things?

I don’t mind the principle of penalty fares but I wish I could charge some back to the railway for its ever increasingly overly complicated way of doing things.

 

[The exile]

Not really, some stations the usage is either too low to warrant the investment with TVMs (ie Peartree or other EMR stations which only have a tiny number of calls a day) or are in areas where the TVM will likely get smashed up by local youths for a laugh.

So you just instal a type of PERTIS machine which has got virtually nothing to smash.

 

[Hadders]

Agreed a bar code ticket it the norm but when it needs to be printed, it is a bit silly that the industry has let it be printed on something other than a credit card size piece of card. It is extremely easy to lose non-credit card size pieces of card.

It’s personal choice whether to print or show a barcode on a device.

A couple of years ago I was making a journey to La Rochelle. I’d printed my Eurostar and TGV tickets out and stored them in my wallet. Unfortunately my wallet got stolen on the Paris Metro.

Thankfully I was able to log into my Eurostar account and show the barcode on my phone. With traditional tickets I’d have had to buy a new one!

It really does seem like a case of it wasn’t broken, and this new set of variables on top of the existing and acknowledged complicated set of ticketing variables certainly doesn’t fix it.

The problem is that the Aztec barcode needs more space than is available on a CCST. There was an early iteration of barcodes on some CCST but they are not compatible with the barcode now in use.

I probably end up with paper tickets about 1/5th of the time and every time it comes out on clown paper I have to remember to be very careful not to throw it away like a bit of waste paper. Where do they think you are going to put the damn things?

Making the ticket so that when folded it is a CCST size will help.

What we’re not going to get is a cardboard ticket. That boat has sailed - the ticket stock and printers required are more expensive. As printed ticket volume declines the industry should seek cost savings whete it can.

 

[modernrail]

It’s personal choice whether to print or show a barcode on a device.

A couple of years ago I was making a journey to La Rochelle. I’d printed my Eurostar and TGV tickets out and stored them in my wallet. Unfortunately my wallet got stolen on the Paris Metro.

Thankfully I was able to log into my Eurostar account and show the barcode on my phone. With traditional tickets I’d have had to buy a new one!


The problem is that the Aztec barcode needs more space than is available on a CCST. There was an early iteration of barcodes on some CCST but they are not compatible with the barcode now in use.


Making the ticket so that when folded it is a CCST size will help.

What we’re not going to get is a cardboard ticket. That boat has sailed - the ticket stock and printers required are more expensive. As printed ticket volume declines the industry should seek cost savings whete it can.

It’s a shame we have to move away from it. I am used to larger tickets with barcodes in Europe but at least they tend be more substantial.

I am not talking about pre-booked tickets, but tickets that are sold to you in person on clown paper.

It is the really flimsy nature of the UK choice that is part of the problem.

Anyway, within the EMR context the bigger points are probably machines that simply don’t allow pick up. I don’t understand why they would not have that functionality as they are clearly issuing some sort of paper tickets otherwise they wouldn’t exist.

Why would they not be able to allow you to pick up a pre booked ticket? Because they can’t connect to the reservations system or something like that?

I had a very frustrating 5 minutes at the machine until another passenger confirmed you can’t pick them up, which she agreed was silly and had caught her out.

Pick up from a machine with a code was the only option when I booked online.

I needed to catch that train because a chain of connections relied on it including some advance fares and so I would have received a penalty fare in that scenario and would have been cheesed off.

problem is that the Aztec barcode needs more space than is available on a CCST. There was an early iteration of barcodes on some CCST but they are not compatible with the barcode now in use.


Making the ticket so that when folded it is a CCST size will help.

What we’re not going to get is a cardboard ticket. That boat has sailed - the ticket stock and printers required are more expensive. As printed ticket volume declines the industry should seek cost savings whete can.

 

[Hadders]

It’s a shame we have to move away from it. I am used to larger tickets with barcodes in Europe but at least they tend be more substantial.

Times move on! Moving to barcode tickets gives greater visibility of ticket use. It isn’t just the railway that has moved to barcode tickets, airlines, theatre, sporting events etc to name but a few.

I don’t think anyone would want European sized Elgar tickets - they were tried 25 years ago and didn’t last long.

I am not talking about pre-booked tickets, but tickets that are sold to you in person on clown paper.

It is the really flimsy nature of the UK choice that is part of the problem.

The vast majority of tickets aren’t issued on paper these days. Paper is just a method of displaying the barcode. Some of the stations I use have had ticket machines removed recently due to less use.

Last year I had to get BA to reissue a boarding pass at Heathrow T5. Trust me the paper it was printed on made the railway’s paper roll ticket look substantial! I’ve seen more substantial tracing paper but it did the job which was to display the barcode for the duration of my journey.

Anyway, within the EMR context the bigger points are probably machines that simply don’t allow pick up. I don’t understand why they would not have that functionality as they are clearly issuing some sort of paper tickets otherwise they wouldn’t exist.

I don’t know what EMR have done here but a ticket machine allowing ticket collection has to have a connection to the ticketing database. It will also need the capability to print on CCST as well in case the ticket collected involves travel on TfL.

I can see why, in certain situations, it’s better to provide a ‘reduced function’ TVM than no TVM, especially if this is an additional TVM.

 

[Kite159]

So you just instal a type of PERTIS machine which has got virtually nothing to smash.

In some aress, some of the locals will still smash it up, the areas where the waiting shelters have been smashed up etc.

And even if you installed a PERTIS machine at some of the more lesser served stations, you will need to employ someone to go round to keep it in running order. The days of those machines taking cash are long gone due to the security risk, and they will be off little use to those who don't carry cash.

 

[modernrail]

Times move on! Moving to barcode tickets gives greater visibility of ticket use. It isn’t just the railway that has moved to barcode tickets, airlines, theatre, sporting events etc to name but a few.

I don’t think anyone would want European sized Elgar tickets - they were tried 25 years ago and didn’t last long.



The vast majority of tickets aren’t issued on paper these days. Paper is just a method of displaying the barcode. Some of the stations I use have had ticket machines removed recently due to less use.

Last year I had to get BA to reissue a boarding pass at Heathrow T5. Trust me the paper it was printed on made the railway’s paper roll ticket look substantial! I’ve seen more substantial tracing paper but it did the job which was to display the barcode for the duration of my journey.


I don’t know what EMR have done here but a ticket machine allowing ticket collection has to have a connection to the ticketing database. It will also need the capability to print on CCST as well in case the ticket collected involves travel on TfL.

I can see why, in certain situations, it’s better to provide a ‘reduced function’ TVM than no TVM, especially if this is an additional TVM.

In this case it is the only TVM.

How do the TVMs work then now. I am assuming that the purpose of a TVM is to issue a physical ticket. Are you saying that some might not issue CCST tickets and if they are that type they won’t allow you to buy cross London tickets?

Or do all TVM’s still only issue CCST tickets?

I asked chat gpt what might be going on with the Alsager machine and it suggests it’s a cheaper model/has been set up without the software that is capable of printing a seat reservation. That seems like a bit of false economy if so.

I had a set of clown tickets the other week that included a bike reservation and I could have easily used that set as bunting.

 

[thenorthern]

In this case it is the only TVM.

How do the TVMs work then now. I am assuming that the purpose of a TVM is to issue a physical ticket. Are you saying that some might not issue CCST tickets and if they are that type they won’t allow you to buy cross London tickets?

Or do all TVM’s still only issue CCST tickets?

I asked chat gpt what might be going on with the Alsager machine and it suggests it’s a cheaper model/has been set up without the software that is capable of printing a seat reservation. That seems like a bit of false economy if so.

I had a set of clown tickets the other week that included a bike reservation and I could have easily used that set as bunting.

The EMR ones have the receipt paper style tickets which I must admit I hate, they scrunch up too easily in my wallet and if they get just a little bit damp they start to disintegrate.

 

[Hadders]

In this case it is the only TVM.

How do the TVMs work then now. I am assuming that the purpose of a TVM is to issue a physical ticket. Are you saying that some might not issue CCST tickets and if they are that type they won’t allow you to buy cross London tickets?

Or do all TVM’s still only issue CCST tickets?

I asked chat gpt what might be going on with the Alsager machine and it suggests it’s a cheaper model/has been set up without the software that is capable of printing a seat reservation. That seems like a bit of false economy if so.

I had a set of clown tickets the other week that included a bike reservation and I could have easily used that set as bunting.

I don't know the position at Alsager but I believe EMR did some experiments with TVMs at St Pancras issuing tickets on plain white paper roll.

At some point CCST will disappear completely, in some areas of the country it already effectively has and it's only clinging on in others because of the TfL position. At stations that aren't likely to be issuing tickets involving tickets TfL validity then I can see PRT being the way forward.

I would be wary of relying on ChatGPT for answers to questions....

 

[Wallsendmag]

The EMR ones have the receipt paper style tickets which I must admit I hate, they scrunch up too easily in my wallet and if they get just a little bit damp they start to disintegrate.

Coming to another IC TOC near you soon

 

[CyrusWuff]

The EMR ones have the receipt paper style tickets which I must admit I hate, they scrunch up too easily in my wallet and if they get just a little bit damp they start to disintegrate.

Worldline Kiosks also issue on paper (though in e-ticket format, rather than PRT) though they also have a CCST printer.