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Chiltern MK5s Starting 2026 (non speculative updates thread)

Wyrleybart

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One criticism that has been levelled at the Mark 5A stock (as opposed to the Mark 5 stock used by the Caledonian Sleepers) is the lack of flexibility.

Unlike the Caledonian Mark 5s, the 5As are a fixed formation- basically an unpowered unit onto which can be coupled an electric or diesel loco.

I’m informed that one cannot produce a ten car set by sandwiching a loco between two sets of coaches with DVTs at both ends, but I do wonder whether would it be possible to create a ten car train in some other way with these when needed, perhaps coupled DVT to DVT and with the locos top and tailed?

Or alternatively coupling two sets together one after the other (ie “68 - trailers - DVT - 68 - trailers - DVT” or vice versa)?

Does anyone know for sure?

Seems a tad inflexible if not, given the 168 units with their 2, 3 and 4 car formations can be coupled together in multiple in more or less any permutation from 2-10 cars!
Don't know much about the Mk5 sets but I am getting the impression they have been created as a poor man's "shove" fixed set. They seem to use the two pipe air brake system with normal brake propagation from the leading driving cab. It can be assumed that a sixth vehicle in the formation would have no negative results, but would actually improve braking capabilies even if brake release might be seconds slower.

The issue is obviously the TCMS or whatever it is known as on CAF built trains. As the rakes are semi permanently coupled it would be easy to assume that Once some of the rakes could be lengthened to six cars then the TCMS would need "one off" updates to the 6 vehicles. It must be feasible but clearly DfT don't want to pay the price.
 
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172007

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Chiltern are using 3NXX it appears for their driver training runs today and I guess going forward.

It's interestjng they are using the class 3 priority ECS rather than a Class 5 ECS. Now is this classification due to it being necessary or a nod to their previous or maybe current name of "Nova 3"?
 

hwl

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Don't know much about the Mk5 sets but I am getting the impression they have been created as a poor man's "shove" fixed set. They seem to use the two pipe air brake system with normal brake propagation from the leading driving cab. It can be assumed that a sixth vehicle in the formation would have no negative results, but would actually improve braking capabilies even if brake release might be seconds slower.

The issue is obviously the TCMS or whatever it is known as on CAF built trains. As the rakes are semi permanently coupled it would be easy to assume that Once some of the rakes could be lengthened to six cars then the TCMS would need "one off" updates to the 6 vehicles. It must be feasible but clearly DfT don't want to pay the price.
Agreed I get the feeling that DfT have a lack of confidence in passenger numbers and growth/recovery on Chiltern. Hence go for the cheapest option now (do minimal e.g. rebranding and deep clean) and then worry about 6 or 7 car when the numbers justify it.

I get the feeling that the short trains, reduced service levels and some services slowed with extra stops added are all helping contribute to the lack passenger number recovery at Chiltern (and lots of people in jobs with work from home potential hence an operator has to provide a good experience not a DfT do minimum mediocre one)
 

43096

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It's interestjng they are using the class 3 priority ECS rather than a Class 5 ECS. Now is this classification due to it being necessary or a nod to their previous or maybe current name of "Nova 3"?
It will be nothing to do with TPE’s Nova 3 nonsense and everything to do with operational requirements (eg making sure crews are not delayed for booked passenger workings).
 

43055

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Chiltern are using 3NXX it appears for their driver training runs today and I guess going forward.

It's interestjng they are using the class 3 priority ECS rather than a Class 5 ECS. Now is this classification due to it being necessary or a nod to their previous or maybe current name of "Nova 3"?
EMR's class 810 training runs are also class 3.
 

warwickshire

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Chiltern are using 3NXX it appears for their driver training runs today and I guess going forward.

It's interestjng they are using the class 3 priority ECS rather than a Class 5 ECS. Now is this classification due to it being necessary or a nod to their previous or maybe current name of "Nova 3"?
Yes, with the set CH12 and Locomotive 68022, now at Stourbridge Juction as a overnight based set, used for the time being with test runs between Bicester North and Birmingham Moor Street,

Please note Chiltern railways now has two sets on its network with another set at Banbury, having arrived on Wednesday 20th August 2025, now stabling there whilst CH12 with 68022, performs driver training at Stourbridge junction, and on the main line.

Locomotive was 68032, most likely it will be set CH13, the set used on the previous two days previous on the Banbury to Didcot Parkways. However any further information on this set is much appreciated.

However initially at first as time goes on probably sets CH12 CH13 will swap over with the other sets, CH05, CH02 at Eastleigh, and as we know Eastleigh has a paint shop, there, watch out in due course for a set appearing in branded livery, coming onto the network, whilst either CH13 CH12, or how they cycle them around for maintenance etc, get branded themselves,

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

68025 is at Crewe South Yard:)
Keeping sets CH11, CH08 warm and moving around the yard, pity Transpennine never did this when they used Crewe South Yard for the same storage purposes.
 

dooton

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Chiltern are using 3NXX it appears for their driver training runs today and I guess going forward.

It's interestjng they are using the class 3 priority ECS rather than a Class 5 ECS. Now is this classification due to it being necessary or a nod to their previous or maybe current name of "Nova 3"?
Class 3 is used as there are test crews onboard not just a driver and train manager.
 

The_Train

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Class 3 is used as there are test crews onboard not just a driver and train manager.
Ooohhhh I've often wondered about the difference between class 3 and class 5 moves, especially with rail tour ECS moves. I presume then a Class 3 headcode for a rail tour ECS move indicates that there are stewards and other staff on board then?
 

Fincra5

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Ooohhhh I've often wondered about the difference between class 3 and class 5 moves, especially with rail tour ECS moves. I presume then a Class 3 headcode for a rail tour ECS move indicates that there are stewards and other staff on board then?
1. The first digit is the train class category.

0 represents a light engine movement, or locomotive convoy. An example of a light locomotive convoy headcode could be 0V60, because the first digit is a zero.

1 represents an express train / fast train. A 1 followed by a Q will often represent a Network Rail Test Train. 1 is also used for rail charters, usually when the 1 is followed by a Z.

2 represents a semi fast or slow passenger train, which frequently stops at stations. A 2 followed by a Q would represent Network Rail Class 950 test train or other DMU like a 153. 2Z02 is also often used for DRS inspection coach trains.

3 is a priority ECS (empty coaching stock) train, parcels, or a seasonal / weather related vehicle used to spray the rails or weeds.

4 is a fast freight train.

5 is an empty coaching stock train not in passenger use.

6 is an aggregates train, building materials, or other freight which is slower than a class 4 train.

7 is even slower than a class train, usually doing no more than 45mph.

8 is often weather related vehicles, and very slow trains.

9 is high speed services such as channel tunnel passenger services, Virgin trains and some VSTP planned passenger services. Class 9 headcode is also used for passenger services that are running with restrictions or out of gauge in places, that require special routing. The 9 headcode tells the signaller that this is a train with special requirements.
 

Bald Rick

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Class 9 is now principally used to identify services that need particular routeing. Hence:

Avanti Class 9s are those booked to run north of Stafford but routed via the West Midlands
Thameslink Class 9s are those booked to run via the Thamelink core
London Overground Class 9s are those booked to run via the East London Line core
Eurostar Class 9s - servcies on HS1 that are booked to run via the Channel Tunnel

I have only ever seen Class 9s used specifically for VSTP during disruption in Anglia.


Services that have special gauging requirements will usually have an “X” as their second digit identifier, and can be (and are) any first number.
 
Last edited:

Jacob Porrett

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Class 9 is now principally used to identify services that need particular routeing. Hence:

Avanti Class 9s are those booked to run north of Stafford but routed via the West Midlands
Thameslink Class 9s are those booked to run via the Thamelink core
London Overground Class 9s are those booked to run via the East London Line core
Eurostar Class 9s - servcies on HS1 that are booked to run via the Channel Tunnel

I have only ever seen Class 9s used specifically for VSTP during disruption in Anglia.


Services that have special gauging requirements will usually have an “X” as their second digit identifier.
Class 9 on the London Overground?
 

Bletchleyite

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Wasn't 9 used for trains that need prioritising due to potentially serious knock on from even a small delay? I'm sure I saw that somewhere.

I think 9 was also used for Eurostar to fit in with French numbering, i.e. 9Ixx/9Oxx become 91xx/90xx in France.
 

pokemonsuper9

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Avanti Class 9s are those booked to run north of Stafford but routed via the West Midlands
Thameslink Class 9s are those booked to run via the Thamelink core
London Overground Class 9s are those booked to run via the East London Line core
Eurostar Class 9s - servcies on HS1 that are booked to run via the Channel Tunnel
For completeness, also Elizabeth Line core services (with ones terminating in Liverpool Street/Paddington High Level as Class 2)
 

Bald Rick

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Class 9 on the London Overground?

Yes, all East London Line trains (carrying passengers) are Class 9.

Added to Thameslink, it means almost all services through New Cross Gate are Class 9.


Wasn't 9 used for trains that need prioritising due to potentially serious knock on from even a small delay? I'm sure I saw that somewhere.

Not that I’m aware of. IIRC The former Norwich in 90 services were class 9s, simply to mark them out as “importanter” - and this persists today with the 0800 off Norwich and 1700 off the Street.

I think 9 was also used for Eurostar to fit in with French numbering, i.e. 9Ixx/9Oxx become 91xx/90xx in France.

Kind of. AIUI Class 9 was picked to dissociate it from existing numbering on both sides of the channel; ie to mark them out as different.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

For completeness, also Elizabeth Line core services (with ones terminating in Liverpool Street/Paddington High Level as Class 2)

:oops: How did I forget those.
 

A S Leib

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This feels rather off-topic from Chiltern Mark 5s.
2 represents a semi fast or slow passenger train, which frequently stops at stations. A 2 followed by a Q would represent Network Rail Class 950 test train or other DMU like a 153. 2Z02 is also often used for DRS inspection coach trains.

7 is even slower than a class train, usually doing no more than 45mph.
Why are Bakerloo services on the Watford DC line class 2 rather than 7?
 

Fincra5

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Class 9 on the London Overground?
Aye, as they need specific routing at New Cross Gate.
Bit like why TL services that go through the Core get a 9 headcode, as they have to be routed a certain way.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

This feels rather off-topic from Chiltern Mark 5s.

Why are Bakerloo services on the Watford DC line class 2 rather than 7?
Because 7 tends to still be Freight Trains AFAIK.
 

sjpowermac

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Agreed I get the feeling that DfT have a lack of confidence in passenger numbers and growth/recovery on Chiltern. Hence go for the cheapest option now (do minimal e.g. rebranding and deep clean) and then worry about 6 or 7 car when the numbers justify it.

I get the feeling that the short trains, reduced service levels and some services slowed with extra stops added are all helping contribute to the lack passenger number recovery at Chiltern (and lots of people in jobs with work from home potential hence an operator has to provide a good experience not a DfT do minimum mediocre one)
The problem with the Mk5A sets is that reforming them into longer rakes always results in having some vehicles left over.

I suspect that half hourly Marylebone to Birmingham will be introduced in December 2026.

Something doesn’t quite add up though if you are correct about:
DfT have a lack of confidence in passenger numbers and growth/recovery on Chiltern
Chiltern have stated that all of the Class 165 and Class 168 units will remain on lease ‘until at least 2030.’

It’s worth remembering that on most days the Mk3 sets operate two diagrams, both of which only operate two return trips Stourbridge/Birmingham to Marylebone. Tu/W/Th there is a third diagram that’s even less productive with Princes Risborough-Marylebone and back plus ecs moves.

lots of people in jobs with work from home potential hence an operator has to provide a good experience not a DfT do minimum mediocre one
Completely agreed on this point. It’s to the shame of Transport for the North that they agreed to the DfT ‘do minimum mediocre’ option for the major cities across the north.
 

XCTurbostar

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68028 ran as 0O86 from Loughborough to Eastleigh. Has this one had engine modifications?
 

FrontSideBus

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Well since the the Mk5a is basically an un-powered Civity, I'm sure extra vehicles could be ordered if required... that is if they ever finish building the 197's for TFW...
 

sjpowermac

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Well since the the Mk5a is basically an un-powered Civity, I'm sure extra vehicles could be ordered if required... that is if they ever finish building the 197's for TFW...
Oh, of course, (almost) anything is possible, with enough money.

As it is, Chiltern are already receiving a huge increase in the number of vehicles they are being allowed to lease. It would be surprising to see additional Mk5A stock ordered, when thoughts are already turning to a Class 165/Class 168 replacement fleet.

I suspect Chiltern might well have preferred to take the Class 68/Mk5A stock on a shorter lease than 10 years, though given how short the TPE lease turned out to be, I can’t really blame Beacon for insisting on this.
 

172007

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So Chiltern have 1 x Mk5 (Nova 3) set currently in daily use for crew training.

Did TPE ever only get 7 Nova 3 Sets running on a handful of days and predominantly only 4 Nova sets running daily in actual service?
 

nigelsporne

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Perhaps TPE got the majority of problems sorted out ready for Chiltern to reap the benefits!
Does anyone know what the problem is with set 01 in Wolverton? Or is it just sitting there waiting for somebody to come up with some cash.
 

warwickshire

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Perhaps TPE got the majority of problems sorted out ready for Chiltern to reap the benefits!
Does anyone know what the problem is with set 01 in Wolverton? Or is it just sitting there waiting for somebody to come up with some cash.
Set TPO1, was the one with the worst cracks in it, however during the storage runs Longsight to Long Marston, rail operations group, also sorted out issues with the sets, better than when Transpennine did, however good idea for another thread, to discuss where did Transpennine Express go wrong, but did Transpennine Express get it right in the end but was it to late ?
 

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RGM654

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Please enlighten my ignorance. Why do the Mk5 sets need different locos of the same class? Different couplers, different control electrics or what?

I'm coming late to this thread with an observation about first class. Earlier this year I did Marylebone to Moor St and back just for the ride in the former "Business Zone". Although Chiltern had ceased charging a supplement, some seats were unoccupied throughout the outward journey and for most of the return. This suggests that most of the passengers in the rest of the train were unaware that they could enjoy extra space at no cost.
 

driver9000

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Please enlighten my ignorance. Why do the Mk5 sets need different locos of the same class? Different couplers, different control electrics or what?

68019 to 68032 (including 033 and 034 as spare locos) were modified to work with electronics and software of the mk5A sets. The existing Chiltern 68s don't have the correct equipment and wiring.
 

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