Future of the 350/2s

[tfw756rider]

I was replying to a different thread, I didn't know this existing thread even existed hence mentioning that YT video. I didn't know it had already been posted at the time . Two different threads on the same subject were merged.

Ah right yeah, apologies in that case.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2025 ==

Given that the 323's are now over 30 years old I don't think that is a bad thing. While I still think there is life in the 323's I think they do need to be phased out. I know the 350's are now getting on a bit (must be 20 years old?) but they are still decent trains if they have decent seats. I actually quite like the trains on the LNW 350 Crewe to London route.

The 350/2s (the ones Northern would be getting) are 16 and 17 years old (built in 2008 and 2009). You wouldn't think it though, because of the unrefurbished-ness of them.

West Midlands Trains is keeping the 20 and 21 year old 350/1s (built in 2004 and 2005) and the 11 and 12 year old 350/3s and 350/4s (built in 2013 and 2014).

 

[TheSmiths82]

If Northern put new seats into them and give them as new refurb then I think they would be quite popular. Knowing Northern though they will just be put into service as is once the driver training is complete.

 

[tfw756rider]

If Northern put new seats into them and give them as new refurb then I think they would be quite popular. Knowing Northern though they will just be put into service as is once the driver training is complete.

Maybe new seats would be pushing it, but I'd expect them to get Northern blue seat covers to replace the 16/17-year old still-original and "well-worn" London Midland ones, along with the Northern livery. And some sort of basic power sockets like USB-As.

@Bletchleyite do the 350/2 seats need refoaming as well then? I can't remember them being hard from my last 350/2 ride, but it was sometime earlier in 2025 (maybe even January).

 

[L+Y]

While I've always liked 350s (and 323s before them!) I'm a bit concerned that a straightforward replacement is going to see a return to awkward platform overhangs when you replace a 6 car 323 formation with an 8 car 350 one: especially given some stations have only recently had platforms lengthened to take a 6 car train! That's assuming Northern even get the full 37 (?) 350s, and we don't end up with an odd fudge like the current 323 situation?

 

[brad465]

A 769 is around 0.26-0.36ms-2 and for comparison a 323 & 350/2 are both around 1ms-2 and a 331 is 1.3ms-2.

That 769 acceleration is awful!

Took the words right out of my mouth.

While 350/2s can certainly replace 323s, it would be good to get 769s binned off by them and/or other stock as well, not just for poor acceleration, but also as they're a micro fleet at Northern.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The 350/2s (the ones Northern would be getting) are 16 and 17 years old (built in 2008 and 2009). You wouldn't think it though, because of the unrefurbished-ness of them.
West Midlands Trains is keeping the 20 and 21 year old 350/1s (built in 2004 and 2005) and the 11 and 12 year old 350/3s and 350/4s (built in 2013 and 2014).

The thing against the 350/2s until now has been the leasing cost, as they were procured at the height of new build prices, before the financial crash and the fleet extinction deals that came in, notably with Aventras.
Porterbrook will have borrowed heavily to buy them originally, hence unwilling to do cut-price leases, but they have had 15-odd years of good revenue from them.
DfT originally guaranteed to lease them at the high price until fairly recently, but that contract term has expired.
There must have been some deal between DfT/DOLR and Porterbrook to agree an lower lease cost to Northern.
It also knocks off 148 vehicles from Northern's procurement of new trains (or puts that number to the back of the queue).

 

[tfw756rider]

The thing against the 350/2s until now has been the leasing cost, as they were procured at the height of new build prices, before the financial crash and the fleet extinction deals that came in, notably with Aventras.
Porterbrook will have borrowed heavily to buy them originally, hence unwilling to do cut-price leases, but they have had 15-odd years of good revenue from them.
DfT originally guaranteed to lease them at the high price until fairly recently, but that contract term has expired.
There must have been some deal between DfT/DOLR and Porterbrook to agree an lower lease cost to Northern.
It also knocks off 148 vehicles from Northern's procurement of new trains (or puts that number to the back of the queue).

Someone said a while back that it was specifically the mileage charges that were higher for the 350/2s, as they weren't originally intended to be used as frequently as they ended up being used.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe new seats would be pushing it, but I'd expect them to get Northern blue seat covers to replace the 16/17-year old still-original and "well-worn" London Midland ones, along with the Northern livery. And some sort of basic power sockets like USB-As.

@Bletchleyite do the 350/2 seats need refoaming as well then? I can't remember them being hard from my last 350/2 ride, but it was sometime earlier in 2025 (maybe even January).

I'd probably do new foams, yes, they're getting tired. Frames are fine. If wanting to do 2+2 just angle grinder the third seat off, narrow 2+2 would work better for crowds.

 

[tfw756rider]

I'd probably do new foams, yes, they're getting tired. Frames are fine. If wanting to do 2+2 just angle grinder the third seat off, narrow 2+2 would work better for crowds.

Fair enough, I suppose they'd only get worse if not refoamed. I was actually thinking of the 3+2 to 2+2 conversion, but more in terms of whether the third seat would unbolt, than angle grinding it off

 

[BerkshireRails]

Took the words right out of my mouth.

While 350/2s can certainly replace 323s, it would be good to get 769s binned off by them and/or other stock as well, not just for poor acceleration, but also as they're a micro fleet at Northern.

I would imagine the 350s would allow with electrifaction the displacement of 15Xs to take over the 769s workings. 158s have an acceleration rate of 0.8ms-2 according to eversholt, I remember on a TfW doc the 150s are 0.65ms-2.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

What I find strange about this potential 350/2 going to Northern Railway is that Northern Railway is not planning to replace any of their stock with the 350/2s. I may well be barking up the wrong tree, and I may well be totally wrong. I asked this question a while back on X, and Richard Clinnock, who is the editor of Modern Railways https://x.com/Clinnick1/status/1949004142179201043. He said that they won't. If he means that the 350/2s will not end up at Northern Railway?

 

[BerkshireRails]

What I find strange about this potential 350/2 going to Northern Railway is that Northern Railway is not planning to replace any of their stock with the 350/2s. I may well be barking up the wrong tree, and I may well be totally wrong. I asked this question a while back on X, and Richard Clinnock, who is the editor of Modern Railways https://x.com/Clinnick1/status/1949004142179201043. He said that they won't. If he means that the 350/2s will not end up at Northern Railway?

Maybe it will not be Northern but instead they will be operating under the Bee Network.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I would imagine the 350s would allow with electrifaction the displacement of 15Xs to take over the 769s workings. 158s have an acceleration rate of 0.8ms-2 according to eversholt, I remember on a TfW doc the 150s are 0.65ms-2.

A lot of the 150s are in a bad state, so it might be that a series of cascades starting with the 350s and finally resulting in the 769s sending a few 150s to the tin can factory.

 

[tfw756rider]

What I find strange about this potential 350/2 going to Northern Railway is that Northern Railway is not planning to replace any of their stock with the 350/2s. I may well be barking up the wrong tree, and I may well be totally wrong. I asked this question a while back on X, and Richard Clinnock, who is the editor of Modern Railways https://x.com/Clinnick1/status/1949004142179201043. He said that they won't. If he means that the 350/2s will not end up at Northern Railway?

Just because that guy from Northern came on here and said that they have "no plans" and Richard Clinnick has said "they won't", doesn't necessarily mean that Northern (or the Northern region train operation) won't be taking on the 350/2s.

I think the actual case is "they might", otherwise why would they have been seen on test in the region? Just that for some reason, instead of saying "they might", they've gone into denial mode, which is not only silly (obviously they've been seen on test) but also comes across as lying, which of course is morally wrong. [edit: it's since been pointed out or implied that it's not actually lying if a deal hasn't been finalised]. It's very strange behaviour [though, in my opinion].

 

[Clarence Yard]

Northern may well have had no plans and the railway journalists may have got their information from the TOC itself but they are asking the wrong people.

Increasingly, it is the DfT who are calling the shots over which surplus rolling stock goes where. They will want newer rolling stock placed.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

Well. I have had this X reply, and I am sorry to say this, but I asked Richard this, and this was his reply. It is bad news for Northern. https://x.com/Clinnick1/status/1957708146798977425

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well. I have had this X reply, and I am sorry to say this, but I asked Richard this, and this was his reply. It is bad news for Northern. https://x.com/Clinnick1/status/1957708146798977425

Why on earth would they be testing them up there if they weren't being considered? Unless the implication is that Bee Network is going to set up its own TOC which will use them and take those routes from Northern, a la Merseyrail?

 

[MichaelTrains]

Northern are being persuaded to take 350s over 323s.

Only if given a full deep clean and refurb

 

[The Planner]

Only if given a full deep clean and refurb

I doubt if Northern will have a lot of say in it.

 

[43096]

Well. I have had this X reply, and I am sorry to say this, but I asked Richard this, and this was his reply. It is bad news for Northern. https://x.com/Clinnick1/status/1957708146798977425

Why are you bothering asking Clinnick? Northern and Porterbrook may well be working on something but it is being kept under wraps until DfT say so. So they will both tell anyone asking there is no deal (and that is correct - there is no deal, until one is agreed). And in particular if I was them I would not be telling Clinnick!!!!

 

[skyhigh]

Well. I have had this X reply, and I am sorry to say this, but I asked Richard this, and this was his reply. It is bad news for Northern. https://x.com/Clinnick1/status/1957708146798977425

Total nonsense. The official line is 'no', so of course if asked for comment by a journalist they will say no. There is clearly work going on in the background to consider their use.

 

[Snow1964]

Why are you bothering asking Clinnick? Northern and Porterbrook may well be working on something but it is being kept under wraps until DfT say so. So they will both tell anyone asking there is no deal (and that is correct - there is no deal, until one is agreed). And in particular if I was them I would not be telling Clinnick!!!!

Yes any comments will be embargoed whilst under discussion and nothing is finalised.

DfT knows any new trains are at least 3 years away (top up of existing design), or nearer 5-6 years for any brand new design, so high likelihood that work is going on behind the scenes to get stored stock back in use in interim.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Why are you bothering asking Clinnick? Northern and Porterbrook may well be working on something but it is being kept under wraps until DfT say so. So they will both tell anyone asking there is no deal (and that is correct - there is no deal, until one is agreed). And in particular if I was them I would not be telling Clinnick!!!!

I expect DFTO, as the owner of public DfT TOCs, will be taking any future procurement decisions pending GBR's existence.
Nothing is certain until a lease contract is signed with the Rosco.

 

[Nym]

Well. I have had this X reply, and I am sorry to say this, but I asked Richard this, and this was his reply. It is bad news for Northern. https://x.com/Clinnick1/status/1957708146798977425

Why, oh why, would the press know?

 

[Pete_uk]

About a week ago, TrainRealm on YouTube posted Northern 350 'diagram' illustrations (albeit they have the "northern by arriva" logos on them).

I attempted an AI-generated Northern 350, but unlike the Great Western Railway 350, the Northern 350 wasn't quite right. i know @Pete_uk manages to get really good AI pictures, so maybe he'd be so kind as to have a go at an AI Northern 350?

First go, might give an idea...

 

[Rail Quest]

First go, might give an idea...

I've managed to get a bit closer, though I would've gone further if ChatGPT's image generation daily limits were a little higher. The only main issue is the front gangway being blue (which was my fault in not being specific enough in the prompt).

 

[tfw756rider]

First go, might give an idea...

Better than the best one I got!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2025 ==

I've managed to get a bit closer, though I would've gone further if ChatGPT's image generation daily limits were a little higher. The only main issue is the front gangway being blue (which was my fault in not being specific enough in the prompt).

The best I've seen yet though Although it appears to be a 350/1

 

[BerkshireRails]

Chiltern was a bit different as they wanted people to encourage the DfT to let them have the Mk5As.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

Why on earth would they be testing them up there if they weren't being considered? Unless the implication is that Bee Network is going to set up its own TOC which will use them and take those routes from Northern, a la Merseyrail?

Why are you bothering asking Clinnick? Northern and Porterbrook may well be working on something but it is being kept under wraps until DfT say so. So they will both tell anyone asking there is no deal (and that is correct - there is no deal, until one is agreed). And in particular if I was them I would not be telling Clinnick!!!!

Total nonsense. The official line is 'no', so of course if asked for comment by a journalist they will say no. There is clearly work going on in the background to consider their use.

Why, oh why, would the press know?

I've managed to get a bit closer, though I would've gone further if ChatGPT's image generation daily limits were a little higher. The only main issue is the front gangway being blue (which was my fault in not being specific enough in the prompt).

Better than the best one I got!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2025 ==


The best I've seen yet though Although it appears to be I would

Well. I would say that Clinnock has connections with TOC and ROSCO, and they have told him that? If you don't want to believe in what Richard Clinnock has to say in that? Then, I would very much advise all of you to write to ROSCO, the TOCs, Northern, and last but not least, Porterbrook, and see what their response is. It could be the same thing, after all.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

Well. I would say that Clinnock has connections with TOC and ROSCO, and they have told him that? If you don't want to believe in what Richard Clinnock has to say in that? Then, I would very much advise all of you to write to ROSCO, the TOCs, Northern, and last but not least, Porterbrook, and see what their response is. It could be the same thing, after all.

And if you arbitrarily write to all of the above you’ll be lucky to even get a response that says wait until an official announcement, if there is to be one.