Should "false destinations" be used on slow/circular services?

[AndrewE]

It was everywhere on the old trains. Not any more which is why is said it
The old BR wall maps survive, and a few posters. But no, nothing near what it ought to be for an admittedly fairly amateur, self proclaimed metro.

looks very like one in https://www.alamy.com/interior-of-a...ide-north-west-england-uk-image214434977.html
and in https://www.flickr.com/photos/kpmarek/3412442347/in/photostream/

 

[Bill57p9]

Clockwise and Anti-clockwise aren’t really words that are in the vocabulary of somebody whose mother tongue isn’t English, whereas place/station names are unambiguous and usually stay the same.

Glasgow subway uses “Inner Circle” and “Outer Circle” which is probably even less intuitive to the unfamiliar.

 

[AndrewE]

Glasgow subway uses “Inner Circle” and “Outer Circle” which is probably even less intuitive to the unfamiliar.

I thought about replying quoting this example: it must be especially unhelpful if you come from somewhere that doesn't drive on the left!

 

[Peakrider]

You missed out award-winning.

That’s so funny. Rail awards - pretty low bar isn’t it - so fairly meaningless. The award for least bad railway

 

[BerkshireRails]

Such a discussion ensued over "The Loop" bus service in Milton Keynes, and the conclusion was that it should be honest about what it is, and the displays now say Clockwise and Anticlockwise and people can understand it properly rather than trying to work out in their head what order a particular set of places would be in. This was probably true of the Circle Line too before it became the panhandle line.

Circle Line is Inner & Outer Rail I believe

Back to the original one (or the former Oldham Loop) if it is possible to put a useful false destination in the system, i.e. something like "Cathcart Loop Clockwise", that's what I would do, and put a via point of the most distant but well-known station in as well.

I remember the Didcot Parkway Stoppers for a while were on the Customer Screens at Paddington shown as Cholsey services.
.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

With regard to the Cambrian example, if there are occasional issues with the PIS on the 158s (or even the 197s when they take over) a low-tech solution would be to put a poster up at every station on the coast which states:
"Passengers for stations to Shrewsbury and beyond should board the train to Machynlleth. In most cases you will not be required to change trains at Machynlleth. Please speak to the guard if you require further information or assistance."

Plus the same in Welsh of course!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Circle Line is Inner & Outer Rail

Only to staff. To the public it's "via X and Y" or to Edgware Road or Hammersmith depending on where.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2025 ==

With regard to the Cambrian example, if there are occasional issues with the PIS on the 158s (or even the 197s when they take over) a low-tech solution would be to put a poster up at every station on the coast which states:
"Passengers for stations to Shrewsbury and beyond should board the train to Machynlleth. In most cases you will not be required to change trains at Machynlleth. Please speak to the guard if you require further information or assistance."

Plus the same in Welsh of course!

At least to be fair the ones that go through now do correspond with the timetable. There was a period of time when they didn't.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

At least to be fair the ones that go through now do correspond with the timetable. There was a period of time when they didn't.

To be honest, the case mentioned upthread about a Scout leader being unsure whether to board an (advertised) Mach train at Porthmadog because they were expecting a Birmingham one, is quite an extreme case. I don't think you would need to be a train nerd to join the dots on that one, and if you're there as the responsible adult supervising a group of children then at the very least you'd approach the guard if in doubt. I'd expect all but the most ignorant to realise that there wasn't going to be another train running in the same direction shortly after that one. I'm surprised that someone who struggled with that is considered to be a responsible adult from a safeguarding* point of view.

Back in the days of old-fashioned roller blinds, trains did occasionally run with random incorrect destinations on the front. I remember boarding a Bradford train at Shipley in pre-electrification days, a 142 with a blind displaying "Skegness"! I've also seen a photo linked on this very site a while back of a first-gen DMU somewhere in the south of England with "Clayton West" displayed on the front... In both cases I doubt anyone believed what was advertised!

*=By safeguarding, I just mean a general safety and responsibility issue, rather than anything sinister.

 

[bramling]

Such a discussion ensued over "The Loop" bus service in Milton Keynes, and the conclusion was that it should be honest about what it is, and the displays now say Clockwise and Anticlockwise and people can understand it properly rather than trying to work out in their head what order a particular set of places would be in. This was probably true of the Circle Line too before it became the panhandle line.

However to some extent every rule requires an exception and there will be limits to what can be done within the constraints of railway systems (vs. bus destination blinds that can say anything you care to programme in). Thus in cases of circular journeys (Chester-Chester via Liverpool being another) there may be sensible exceptions. However it is not a sensible way to differentiate a stopping service from a fast one because it really confuses people - the identifier for a train in the UK is departure time from that station and destination*. The Merseyrail example is different because there is no possible useful case for showing anything other than Liverpool Central on the way in (until you depart James St) - there is no reason bar enthusiasts just wanting to lap the Loop line for anyone to board at James St going the wrong way.

I saw enough confused people yesterday by the really bad habit of showing "Machynlleth" as the on board destination on TfW services from the Cambrian Coast that are actually planned as going through to Birmingham, most notably a small group of Scouts almost didn't board at Porthmadog because they didn't think it was the right train. And similarly at one point the Caledonian Sleeper used to show at Fort William as "Edinburgh" though I think that was fixed a good while ago now. And showing "South Hampstead"** at Watford on Overground services is similarly silly and confusing - CIS screens these days show arrival times, and a note of "local stopping service, journey time approx 1 hour" is quite easy to add on modern systems, or just put those ones on a separate display entirely as Euston I think now does.

Back to the original one (or the former Oldham Loop) if it is possible to put a useful false destination in the system, i.e. something like "Cathcart Loop Clockwise", that's what I would do, and put a via point of the most distant but well-known station in as well.

* This would be different if we used flight numbers for long distance trains and route codes for local ones, but we don't.

** This one is particularly bad because people aren't necessarily going to know where that is nor whether it's north or south of Watford Jn - if you didn't happen to know it just sounds like a generic South East place name. Thus someone wanting Bushey, say, might have no idea where it is.

Overall it’s undesirable, however where you have a situation where significant numbers of people clutter up stopping services then it’s probably the lesser of two evils.

Cambridge is one where this should apply. For all the time I’ve known Cambridge there’s always been a disproportionate number of dopey passengers who will take the first train they see destined for Cambridge or London, or a variation of this is that they don’t realise that the Kings Lynn or Ely train is the fastest train to Cambridge, with the “Cambridge” service being the one which calls at 15 extra stops.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be honest, the case mentioned upthread about a Scout leader being unsure whether to board an (advertised) Mach train at Porthmadog because they were expecting a Birmingham one, is quite an extreme case. I don't think you would need to be a train nerd to join the dots on that one, and if you're there as the responsible adult supervising a group of children then at the very least you'd approach the guard if in doubt. I'd expect all but the most ignorant to realise that there wasn't going to be another train running in the same direction shortly after that one. I'm surprised that someone who struggled with that is considered to be a responsible adult from a safeguarding* point of view.

They appeared to be alone, which is perfectly allowed, encouraged in many cases, indeed mandatory for DoE hikes and similar. They did ask staff but looked a bit panicky. I tried to help one of them but he didn't know where he was going, it seems the others had a better idea.

They were going to one of the request stops and were further confused about the very odd way TfW's TrainFX system announces these - it effectively ignores them in the list and mentions them almost as a footnote.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2025 ==

Cambridge is one where this should apply. For all the time I’ve known Cambridge there’s always been a disproportionate number of dopey passengers who will take the first train they see destined for Cambridge or London, or a variation of this is that they don’t realise that the Kings Lynn or Ely train is the fastest train to Cambridge, with the “Cambridge” service being the one which calls at 15 extra stops.

Of course if we had train categories like basically every other railway on Earth they'd know to plump for the IC or Express if there was one rather than the Local. Lying about the destination seems a poor substitute to me.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

They appeared to be alone, which is perfectly allowed, encouraged in many cases, indeed mandatory for DoE hikes and similar. They did ask staff but looked a bit panicky. I tried to help one of them but he didn't know where he was going, it seems the others had a better idea.

They were going to one of the request stops and were further confused about the very odd way TfW's TrainFX system announces these - it effectively ignores them in the list and mentions them almost as a footnote.

I'd initially misread your anecdote and assumed they had a leader with them. If it's younger kids doing a DoE exercise without supervision then obviously I wouldn't expect them to be experienced enough to navigate the quirks of the railway. Though I don't think we need to reinvent the wheel here- ideally those services wouldn't display a "false" destination as there's no quicker alternative- if the issue is caused by the ex-Pwllheli service joining to an ex-Aberystwyth unit at Mach, that shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to correct. However if it can't be corrected easily for whatever reason, a simple poster displayed at every station explaining that the Machynlleth train continues to Shrewsbury and Birmingham (along with a message on platform displays where these are present) would prevent confusion.

The request stops situation sounds very odd- back when I was a semi-regular user on the Aberystwyth runs (about 20 years ago), all stations were announced in both Welsh and English, before the request stops were repeated (again in both languages) with the instruction to inform the guard if you wished to alight at one of those stops. Obviously at Shrewsbury this meant those announcements took quite some time to get through!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The request stops situation sounds very odd- back when I was a semi-regular user on the Aberystwyth runs (about 20 years ago), all stations were announced in both Welsh and English, before the request stops were repeated (again in both languages) with the instruction to inform the guard if you wished to alight at one of those stops. Obviously at Shrewsbury this meant those announcements took quite some time to get through!

That's what I mean. It does "calling at " the main stops, THEN announces the request stops separately. That is totally counter to anything else on the railway, even where there are request stops. If your station isn't in that initial list it does create concern. There are ways it could be clearer though I agree it is a challenge.

I would imagine that issue will be solved when the 197s take over. I forget how request stops are indicated on those but I would imagine with the better screens it is probably clearer.

 

[Mgameing123]

A video of the old VERA announcements (so pre-panhandle) shows the destinations as, going anti-clockwise/inner rail:

• Circle Line via Paddington and HSK
• Circle Line via HSK and Victoria
• Circle Line via Victoria and Tower Hill
• Circle Line via Tower Hill and Liverpool Street
• Circle Line via Liverpool Street and King’s Cross

No announcements west of KXSP but considering at Baker Street going clockwise it’s “via King’s Cross and Liverpool Street” it might have just said Edgware Road after that, maybe “via Edgware Road and Paddington”.

Point is even pre-spiralisation it seems like you still had to know the order of stations on the line in your direction of travel

At Liverpool Street trains change to saying "Circle Line train to Hammersmith"-

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Presumably, this as regards the two 07:07 Northern departures from York to Leeds, both terminating at Leeds, one will have Leeds as the destination, and the other will have Burley Park?

 

[stuu]

You would think it is far less necessary now most people have a journey planner in their pocket, especially the false destinations for local trains. I have always thought that was daft, ever since I missed a train to Hatfield 30 odd years ago because I didn't think I needed a train to Foxton.

 

[TheSel]

Good point. The almost total absence of any network maps on Merseyrail doesn’t help either. Both on trains and at stations.
Given that the Mayor seems to want to market it as a Metro surely adds to the need for some decent maps on the network.

Northern and Wirral Maps have recently started to appear inside class 777s. I photo'd the example shewn in the image below inside 777022 this morning.

 

[Lewisham2221]

The request stops situation sounds very odd- back when I was a semi-regular user on the Aberystwyth runs (about 20 years ago), all stations were announced in both Welsh and English, before the request stops were repeated (again in both languages) with the instruction to inform the guard if you wished to alight at one of those stops. Obviously at Shrewsbury this meant those announcements took quite some time to get through!

At stations, yes. The onboard announcements handle them very differently.

That's what I mean. It does "calling at " the main stops, THEN announces the request stops separately. That is totally counter to anything else on the railway, even where there are request stops. If your station isn't in that initial list it does create concern. There are ways it could be clearer though I agree it is a challenge.

Yes, the TrainFX system (or the way it is implemented on TfW units) is spectacularly awful at dealing with request stops. As you say, it either totally ignores them, or lists them as an afterthought.

At the start of the journey (or at any other point where it lists the stopping pattern) it will announce the "principal stations" only (non- request stops). It will only mention any request stops between the current "principal" station and the next "principal" station.

For example, on a Heart of Wales service from Shrewsbury to Swansea, the only mention of Broome, Hopton Heath and Bucknell will be on departure from Craven Arms, where the announcement is something like:

"This train is for Swansea. The next stop is Knighton. The next stop is Knighton, if you require Broome, Hopton Heath or Bucknell, please ensure you tell the conductor"

And yes, it does say "The next stop is Knighton" twice.

But it doesn't always do that. Sometimes it only announces the next principal station, which causes confusion when you then stop at a request stops. And the screen still only displays the next principal station, either way.

I would imagine that issue will be solved when the 197s take over. I forget how request stops are indicated on those but I would imagine with the better screens it is probably clearer.

It's no clearer on the 197s - they mention all of the stations, but don't make any mention of the fact that they are request stops.

Northern and Wirral Maps have recently started to appear inside class 777s. I photo'd the example shewn in the image below inside 777022 this morning.

View attachment 186625

They could've at least tried to put it on straight!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

One historic case of a "false destination" being particularly helpful was the once a day Leeds to Sheffield via Huddersfield, which at Leeds was advertised as going to Dodworth. This was particularly important at that time, as this was before the semi-fast services via Barnsley ran- so advertising it as a Sheffield service would catch more people out. I can't imagine many would be pleased to spend nearly 2 hours on a 144!

 

[Kite159]

I would agree, especially on something like a 701 when on a Hounslow or Kingston rounder.
To have it announce 'this is the service to London Waterloo' when it's at Vauxhall can be a tad confusing, especially as the platform displays will be showing something like Strawberry Hill.

(Especially platforms 7/8).

I'm sure the 450s have the ability to announce a false destination, updating along the way.

 

[Djgr]

Northern and Wirral Maps have recently started to appear inside class 777s. I photo'd the example shewn in the image below inside 777022 this morning.

View attachment 186625

Note the arrows on the Loop

 

[geoffk]

Is the OP including the practice used on the Leeds - York via Harrogate trains? I've not been in the area for a few years but remember that the screens at Leeds show these as destination Poppleton, similarly at York they show Burley Park. I believe the announcements match the on-screen display but the final destination is shown on the train. Similarly, the Leeds - Bradford Int - Brighouse - Huddersfield service was shown as for Brighouse, before it was cut back to operate Bradford - Huddersfield only. This practice doesn't seem to apply where a fast and semi-fast/slow service share the same route.

 

[Egg Centric]

And showing "South Hampstead"** at Watford on Overground services is similarly silly and confusing

** This one is particularly bad because people aren't necessarily going to know where that is nor whether it's north or south of Watford Jn - if you didn't happen to know it just sounds like a generic South East place name. Thus someone wanting Bushey, say, might have no idea where it is.

Is this a new thing? I don't recall it being the case there that they've got South deHampstead as stated destination (I'm using it today so can check if I remember!)

 

[stevieinselby]

You would think it is far less necessary now most people have a journey planner in their pocket, especially the false destinations for local trains. I have always thought that was daft, ever since I missed a train to Hatfield 30 odd years ago because I didn't think I needed a train to Foxton.

Unless people are travelling on fixed tickets, I'm not sure it matters. If I was expecting to catch the 1442 from Kings Cross to Cambridge but then I got there a bit early and saw I was in time to catch the 1427 to Cambridge, unless I knew the network well it would be very tempting to think I should jump on the first train I can ... unless it is advertised as "Cambridge (all stations)" or something like that. It's particularly confusing for passengers when the best train to get for Cambridge is not the one that says it's going to Cambridge!

One historic case of a "false destination" being particularly helpful was the once a day Leeds to Sheffield via Huddersfield, which at Leeds was advertised as going to Dodworth. This was particularly important at that time, as this was before the semi-fast services via Barnsley ran- so advertising it as a Sheffield service would catch more people out. I can't imagine many would be pleased to spend nearly 2 hours on a 144!

Or perhaps a simpler solution there is not to join random long, meandering services that no-one in their right mind would use for through journeys together, but instead keep them as separate sections, even if they are worked by the same train. (I realise that won't be the solution for most of the examples in this thread though...)

 

[Krokodil]

Station departure boards and the Passenger display on trains show "Liverpool Central"

Arrival boards (at Chester for example) however don't recognise a false origin. Likewise if there is a cancellation, sometimes the false destination disappears, leaving behind a train from Chester to Chester.

That's what I mean. It does "calling at " the main stops, THEN announces the request stops separately. That is totally counter to anything else on the railway, even where there are request stops. If your station isn't in that initial list it does create concern. There are ways it could be clearer though I agree it is a challenge.

I would imagine that issue will be solved when the 197s take over. I forget how request stops are indicated on those but I would imagine with the better screens it is probably clearer.

197s just list everything as if it was a booked stop.

"This train is for Swansea. The next stop is Knighton. The next stop is Knighton, if you require Broome, Hopton Heath or Bucknell, please ensure you tell the conductor"

And yes, it does say "The next stop is Knighton" twice.

Was even worse until recently:

"This train is for Holyhead. The next stop is Bangor. This is a security announcement blah blah blah. The next stop is Bangor, if you wish to alight at Conwy Penmaenmawr or Llanfairfechan please ensure you tell the Conductor"

How many American tourists ended up panicking that the train wasn't going to stop and missed the opportunity to wonder why someone built a castle right next to a railway line?

Mercifully those three stops are no longer request stops.

 

[BerkshireRails]

"This train is for Swansea. The next stop is Knighton. The next stop is Knighton, if you require Broome, Hopton Heath or Bucknell, please ensure you tell the conductor"

And yes, it does say "The next stop is Knighton" twice.

That reminds me of when South Western Railway services call at Virginia Water twice on the same service.

 

[Class83]

In previous timetables there was also Fife Circle services in Scotland which were typically shown in Edinburgh as destination Glenrothes with Thornton.

For loops, naming the destination as the loop strikes me as reasonably intuitive, e.g. Cathcart Outer Circle. Something similar might work for "Liverpool Loop" or maybe just Liverpool in that case.

For slow services, such as Watford DC, what about suffix (Slow)? Surely anyone stood looking at a departure screen in Watford would find "London Euston" Vs "London Euston (slow)" pretty intuitive. Or use the TfL line name.

Before that the Fife Circle used to be Inner and Outer Circle as well, somewhat redundant now but Dunfermline (Circle) and Kirkcaldy (Circle) would probably have been more immediately obvious, harder for Cathcart to choose a 'main' destination on either side.

 

[Egg Centric]

Is this a new thing? I don't recall it being the case there that they've got South deHampstead as stated destination (I'm using it today so can check if I remember!)

Can confirm it's not currently using South Hampstead as a destination - at least not in the main entrance.

 

[Tester]

Can confirm it's not currently using South Hampstead as a destination - at least not in the main entrance.

Indeed not, but was a thing for many years.

 

[Egg Centric]

Indeed not, but was a thing for many years.

Do you (or @Bletchleyite) remember when? Silverlink or Overground? If it was latter be interesting to know why/when they changed

 

[Tester]

Do you (or @Bletchleyite) remember when? Silverlink or Overground? If it was latter be interesting to know why/when they changed

I can't remember for sure. I think it may have lasted into early Overground days, but was just one of those things one noted in the background.