EMR intercity - As bad as xc?

[londonmidland]

Dare I say it as well many people in Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire would not consider Northamptonshire to be the "East Midlands"

Trying not to veer too off topic here but I feel like Northants locations have more in common with Home counties. The 'proper' East Midlands starts from Leicester northwards for me.

 

[duffield]

That is more or less normal. As i said up-thread, if I’ve heard that excuse once I’ve heard it a hundred times. Leaving aside other issues (most of which, as a layman passenger, I’m not qualified to speak on) that aspect is the one that I forbine am utterly sick if hearing. Who can’t they fix the “computer fault”? Because the company doesn’t care???

The 222 interiors are generally falling apart (excluding the new seat covers), and the reservation system specifically likely runs some ancient obsolete software on some ancient special purpose obsolete hardware with limited or no spares. It probably should have been replaced and upgraded years ago (e.g. when the 810s were supposed to arrive around 2023) and it may well be that it is effectively impossible to fix reliably, and will all have to be replaced as part of the transfer and refurb process.

 

[InTheEastMids]

the worst overcrowding is when one of the East Midlands clubs is playing against a London team

...or if Leicester Tigers are playing in Leicester or London
...or the test match at Trent Bridge
...or when there's one or more big events in London (e.g. concerts at Wembley and Stratford)
so... probably more weekends than not in summer or around Xmas.
I went into London on the 1B31 0950 Nottingham-London, as it is a 10-cars. It was pretty busy but most people were seated, so would've been crush-loaded if it had been a 5-car. However, like the anorak I am, I'd consulted RTT and seen it's one of 3 EMR IC that arrive in London mid-late Saturday morning and are 10 car.
Coming home I was surprised to find the 2105 to be 10 cars, and that was pretty comfortable.

IME the first Off Peak and Super Off Peak services out of London (to Nottingham) have been overcrowded for years

In the old timetable, I think there was a 1901 Sheffield and 1904 Leeds via Nottingham. I (mis)remember both being HSTs and very busy. I'd have caught the 1904 but - as per comments on the impact of Connect, have a recollection of it significantly emptying out at calls south of Bedford.

Neither of the trains I was on this weekend showed reservations

Same.

The 222 interiors are generally falling apart (excluding the new seat covers), and the reservation system specifically likely runs some ancient obsolete software on some ancient special purpose obsolete hardware with limited or no spares. It probably should have been replaced and upgraded years ago (e.g. when the 810s were supposed to arrive around 2023) and it may well be that it is effectively impossible to fix reliably, and will all have to be replaced as part of the transfer and refurb process.

Totally agree with all this. I'd overheard similar comments from train managers about the reservations. It was out of action for months around the end of 2024.
And to clarify for people here that don't use EMR, the only tangible attention the trains have had since 2008 are seat covers/cushions and LED lighting. The Stagecoach carpets, for instance, are just knackered. Others have talked accurately in my view about interior doors, toilets and so on.

The 'proper' East Midlands starts from Leicester northwards for me

I've some sympathy with this but in Governmental terms the East Midlands is Derbs, Leics, Lincs, Northants, Notts and Rutland, and has been since at least the Major Govt, so perhaps we should be used to it. Although Northants is also now part of "Englands Economic Heartland", which I think is about ditching the post-industrial wastelands further north and latching onto the coat-tails of more dynamic sexier trio of Oxford, Cambridge and Milton Keynes.

Overall, I'd rate EMR as struggling, but not yet in crisis (that other train operators have delivered for customers). Crisis happens if/when the IC timetable collapses.

When I thought about Red/Amber/Green ratings, the two Reds I came up with are (1) train capacity/condition issues where we are starting to see signs of progress, and (2) St Pancras Station, which has always been sub-optimal for MML, but is pretty poor now, but not a lot EMR can do about that.

 

[NCT]

One is chronic and the other is acute. To be honest the only problems with EMR Intercity are the shortage and reliability of the trains, which are a temporary problem of fleet transition. EMR's timetable is good, and fleet issues aside, reliability is good too.

The post upgrade MML is a high-quality main line with the longest continuous four-tracking in the country. The 6tph timetable has greatly improved timetable regularity between London and Leicester (a 4tph service which not many places the size of Leicester gets). Nottingham now has an effective 2tph. I do London - Beeston several times a year and it's night and day compared with the old 5tph timetable. I used to have to sit on the all shacks, and now I have a direct train every hour and an East Midlands Parkway interchange opportunity in the opposite half hour taking about the same time.

Cross Country has higher stop densities, higher passenger churn and operate in much more complicated timetable environments with less generous infrastructure, and there are as yet no commitment of capacity expansion.

EMR doesn't have the East Coast or the West Coast kind of catering. Journey times are capped at 2 (and a bit) hours and all major stations have good food offerings in or around the stations, so a buffet service is far less critical than the longer-distance cousins.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 222 interiors are generally falling apart (excluding the new seat covers), and the reservation system specifically likely runs some ancient obsolete software on some ancient special purpose obsolete hardware with limited or no spares. It probably should have been replaced and upgraded years ago (e.g. when the 810s were supposed to arrive around 2023) and it may well be that it is effectively impossible to fix reliably, and will all have to be replaced as part of the transfer and refurb process.

22x reservation systems haven't worked reliably since the things were built (unlike the Pendolino system which mostly does work fine). I really don't understand why no 22x operator has replaced it, as one of the biggest sources of passenger conflict is what happens, particularly on a busy train, if reservations are not showing.

 

[FrontSideBus]

So what happens when the 222's go off lease and the 810's are still not ready?
Mass cancellations? Bring in other units on temp lease? Force the 810's that they have into service?

 

[duffield]

So what happens when the 222's go off lease and the 810's are still not ready?
Mass cancellations? Bring in other units on temp lease? Force the 810's that they have into service?

It's being discussed (at length) here:

Stopgap options to cover for delays to introduction of Class 810 for EMR?

Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-810-for-east-midlands-railway-construction-introduction-updates.195052/page-115#post-7169043 Recent rumour control (and I emphasise RUMOUR, albeit from “inside”)… First 222s to leave in December for full refurb prior to...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Trainman40083]

22x reservation systems haven't worked reliably since the things were built (unlike the Pendolino system which mostly does work fine). I really don't understand why no 22x operator has replaced it, as one of the biggest sources of passenger conflict is what happens, particularly on a busy train, if reservations are not showing.

Must work off 2G then. When they took the masts down it would take time to load the reservations.

 

[Krokodil]

The classic "we're getting new trains so will let the old ones go to rack and ruin" thing that happens every single time.

Unlike on CrossCountry where for years it was "we're not getting new trains and we can't afford to refurbish the old ones either so they'll go to rack and ruin anyway"

 

[Trainman40083]

Unlike on CrossCountry where for years it was "we're not getting new trains and we can't afford to refurbish the old ones either so they'll go to rack and ruin anyway"

Maybe Hitachi has less interest in maintaining them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe Hitachi has less interest in maintaining them.

If there's a contract for them to maintain them then they need to fulfil the terms of that contract. If you don't intend to comply to a contract, don't sign it.

Of course it could be the contact that is flawed, I haven't seen it to know.

 

[Trainman40083]

If there's a contract for them to maintain them then they need to fulfil the terms of that contract. If you don't intend to comply to a contract, don't sign it.

Of course it could be the contact that is flawed, I haven't seen it to know.

They could just blame Bombardier now Alstom. Ah well, soon be new trains.

 

[ricoblade]

Why does the word ‘tatty’ keep coming up? I thought the 222s had had those very poor condition EMT red seat covers replaced with new grey ones and that the 360 refurb will start soon.

I don't travel on EMR very often but notice that the Inter Citys always look dirty when I see them at Sheffield. I did use one to Chesterfield on Saturday and while the seats are comfy (certainly compared to LNER) I noticed that the carpet was worn completely through in places.

 

[cactustwirly]

The HSTs didn't have power doors or sensible access for persons with reduced mobility, and part of the capacity was replaced by using 360s from London to Corby.

What percentage of EMR London services actually have an issue with overcrowding? What are the bad times?

But could have been modified like GWR and XC

Using 360s to Corby does not do anything for HST replacement as they were first stop Market Harborough mostly, which serves different markets to the 360s

 

[Bletchleyite]

Using 360s to Corby does not do anything for HST replacement as they were first stop Market Harborough mostly, which serves different markets to the 360s

They replaced the HSTs by cascade; 360s went on the Corbys releasing Meridians to replace the HSTs.

 

[unlevel42]

From Sheffield regularly weekly traveller to London, Tamworth for the South and short to Derby.
To Derby we will always allow XC to leave and use the following EMR in preference.
The battles enroute to board an XC, their overcrowding and cancelled seat reservations make every journey difficult, whereas St Pancras departures are chaotic they are resolved.

Travelling on other mainlines you soon realise how old and decrepit services to/from Sheffield are compared to other main routes- I would very happily enjoy the comfort of travel from Sheffield to London or Bristol on a class 730.
.
Staff on EMR really do make a difference.

 

[InTheEastMids]

But could have been modified like GWR and XC

But that decision would have needed, in the 2010s, a reasonably stable view of MMLE (there wasn't), and no looming franchise competition at the end of the decade designed to produce investment in new, greener trains (there was), or a national rolling stock plan that identified post-MMLE users (there wasn't).

The franchise competition meant that 2017 would've been too late to start work, and until 2015 it was electrification by 2020, so the only window of opportunity was following the 2015 pause. Even then, starting from a blank sheet, you've got to get the business case together, run the procurement, and send trains off for months for the work. Would have been 2018 before they were all done and back in service.

In any case, I think in 2025 we'd still be in the same situation regardless of whether some HSTs had been retained and upgraded
1. The minimum number of HSTs would have been done (to save costs)
2. After the clock-face timetable is implemented, they need to be shortened to match 222 performance (perhaps 2+5)
3. And because of all this, it'd have been far more likely to have been a HST micro-fleet of perhaps half a dozen 2+5 train sets...
4. ...which in any case would have been retired in 2023 as part of the same post-pandemic cuts that saw off the 180s.

 

[Hadders]

I travelled EMR between St Pancras and Leicester this morning (10:32 ex STP) The 3.5 coaches of standard class was pretty much full, although I didn't observe any standing. If this is a reflection of passenger numbers then I do wonder what loadings are like at a busy time of the week.

here seems to be lots of wasted space on the 222s so hopefully a more efficient layout on the 810s will help, when they eventually arrive.

 

[MikeFromLFE]

Like another poster here we travel between London & Leicester for leisure purposes a few times a year and always upgrade to first.
First on EMR is always a decent proposition in our experience, despite the worn carriages.
The food is good for the length of journey and the staff are always cheerful and helpful.

As the companion of someone with mobility issues my biggest gripe is the situation with boarding at St Pancras - after being nearly knocked over in the rush we now always book assistance. I see no straightforward alternative to the current arrangements (which are slightly better with the dedicated queues) but it seriously makes me wonder about traveling via Nuneaton just to avoid St Pancras.

 

[dk1]

I don't travel on EMR very often but notice that the Inter Citys always look dirty when I see them at Sheffield. I did use one to Chesterfield on Saturday and while the seats are comfy (certainly compared to LNER) I noticed that the carpet was worn completely through in places.

Oh yes that’s to be expected as only the seat covers were refreshed.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Oh yes that’s to be expected as only the seat covers were refreshed.

One of the 180s (?180109) had one of its cars away for corrosion repairs. When it was returned, repainted, and re-instated its cleanliness (paint & windows) really showed the rest of the fleet up!

 

[1D54]

As the companion of someone with mobility issues my biggest gripe is the situation with boarding at St Pancras - after being nearly knocked over in the rush we now always book assistance. I see no straightforward alternative to the current arrangements (which are slightly better with the dedicated queues) but it seriously makes me wonder about traveling via Nuneaton just to avoid St Pancras.

Euston can be an absolute nightmare if travelling at peak times so I'm not sure if if that would be great for someone with mobility issues. Plus side for you if getting home from stations on public transport are the new buses on the 148, did one earlier from Nuneaton to the Red Cow and it was a most impressive trip.

 

[MikeFromLFE]

Euston can be an absolute nightmare if travelling at peak times so I'm not sure if if that would be great for someone with mobility issues. Plus side for you if getting home from stations on public transport are the new buses on the 148, did one earlier from Nuneaton to the Red Cow and it was a most impressive trip.

Those new electric buses on the 148 are excellent (off topic though!)

 

[Trainman40083]

Those new electric buses on the 148 are excellent (off topic though!)

You had me looking to see who made them. . Absolutely no surprise.

 

[BJames]

One of the 180s (?180109) had one of its cars away for corrosion repairs. When it was returned, repainted, and re-instated its cleanliness (paint & windows) really showed the rest of the fleet up!

Believe that was 180110 - was 4 car for quite a long time due to this, very annoying at the busiest of times when that showed up...

 

[Merle Haggard]

Believe that was 180110 - was 4 car for quite a long time due to this, very annoying at the busiest of times when that showed up...

Yes, particularly as I'm fairly sure that there were only 2 diagrams to be covered by 5 sets.
And, when it did get the car back it only lasted a few more months.I don't think it ever ran as a 5 car on EMR before the car was removed.

 

[QSK19]

And, when it did get the car back it only lasted a few more months.I don't think it ever ran as a 5 car on EMR before the car was removed.

110 was a 5-car formation in April 2021 (I captured a video of it pulling into LBO on 10 April 2021).

And yes, as you say, it returned to 5-car running for a very short time before withdrawal from EMR. The gleaming nature of the repaired car compared to the others when it pulled away from LEI after my last journey on it in May 2023 proved the point

 

[WesternLancer]

It seems to me that when they ordered the new inter city fleet they had decided that travel levels would be at covid levels for the foreseeable future and beyond.

It’s regularly completely over crowded so there’s no plan or scope for growth. Passengers will need pricing off.

 

[Kite159]

It seems to me that when they ordered the new inter city fleet they had decided that travel levels would be at covid levels for the foreseeable future and beyond.

It’s regularly completely over crowded so there’s no plan or scope for growth. Passengers will need pricing off.

Don't give the DfT any ideas

 

[dosxuk]

It seems to me that when they ordered the new inter city fleet they had decided that travel levels would be at covid levels for the foreseeable future and beyond.

It’s regularly completely over crowded so there’s no plan or scope for growth. Passengers will need pricing off.

The 810's were ordered pre-covid.