EMR intercity - As bad as xc?

[sh24]

My understanding is that is mainly due to a change in the proportion of first class accommodation though, rather than Japanese Hitachi Magic, so I don't think it's an entirely fair comparison.

Using a random 5 car 222 seat plan (on Seat 61) - 50 First, 190 standard. For an 810 - 47 First, 254 standard.

33% more standard seats, and just a 6% decrease in First. Overall a 25.4% increase in seats. I'd say that's pretty decent.

 

[Llandudno]

It’s come to something when travelling between Matlock and London that the Class 170 regional train between Matlock and Derby is far more comfortable in terms of seat comfort, leg room and general ambiance than the expensive ‘inter city’ train from Derby to London!

 

[Bald Rick]

Some history is probably required. I think BR had the Cross Country and Midland Mainline in the same business division

That’s correct; Midland Cross Country was one of the InterCity Profit centres, ‘HQ’ was in Derby (of course!)


FWIW, and I know my biews don’t often chime with others on these pages… I think EMR are fine, albeit the 222s are looking wuite tired. But then they would be, being a couple of years overdue their replacement - no funder is going to stump up for a refurb just before they go off lease. I also think XC are fine - I don’t use them as much as EMR (perhaps 3-4 times a year for XC vs about once a month for EMR) but whenever I use XC I get a seat and the journey is no different to any other, basically.

 

[JonathanH]

I think perceptions of Intercity operators depend on the journeys that you take. While the 222s are a bit scruffy in places, EMR do a good job of getting people back to London quickly in the evening from the East Midlands. I can imagine that passengers using them a lot on Saturday mornings in the peak direction find that the trains are overcrowded.

 

[ChrisC]

Is this possibly a circular argument: do people shell out for first class tickets because they know it's the only way to guarantee a seat due to there being too much first class seating - this then drives demand for more first class seats on trains, meaning less standard class seats so more chance of standing if you don't pay for first class...

Interesting thoughts.
Whenever I travel down to London from Nottingham it’s always when I am going away for a few days, either to stay in London, or somewhere beyond towards or on the south coast. I therefore have at least a small case with me and will be travelling off peak. I always make use of the Super Off Peak Return ticket and travel First Class. The Super Off Peak Return at approx £80 with my Senior Railcard allows me to travel First Class at what I consider a reasonable price whilst allowing me flexibility which an Advance ticket does not.

Why First Class?
There is space between the seats to store my case relatively close by and in view. The overhead racks on a 222 are not even wide enough to store a small case and I don’t like using the out of sight end of carriage racks.
I‘m always guaranteed to find a seat without any problems, although I must admit that some of the late morning departures from Nottingham to London can get quite busy even in First Class by the time they reach Market Harborough and Kettering.
It’s usually a relatively peaceful journey without people playing loud music and having phone conversations on speaker phone.
The £30 extra compared to Standard Class comes with a reasonable amount of complementary refreshments. Tea/coffee, bottled water, fruit juice, cakes and biscuits, crisps and nuts, a selection of sandwiches and even salads are usually available. Not bad for £15 each way and I find EMR staff very generous with the amount of refreshments they allow you to have.

I have to add that the EMR on train staff are fantastic both with their friendliness, helpfulness and service. Also I find the trains fairly reliable with not too many delays. The 222‘s are getting very poorly maintained with interior doors not working correctly, out of order toilets and seat reservations not showing quite regularly.

When the 810’s are introduced, if there is room to store my case within sight and no overcrowding I may consider travelling Standard Class.
As far as XC are concerned I only travel Standard Class as I find their First Class fares too expensive. However, since they scrapped the HSTs I have tried to avoid travelling on their Voyager trains whenever possible although I don’t mind the 170’s so much if I can get a seat.

 

[Bletchleyite]

EMR intercity - As bad as xc? Discuss.

The trains are crowded, far to short and getting quite tatty yet EMR seem to escape the criticism fired at XC for the same things.

How come?

Today I have to use EMR to get to Nottingham and the trains are rammed packed

Totally agree, it's really unpleasant.

 

[Mag_seven]

The Class 222s are really showing their age now - I really don't know what ScotRail are thinking in taking them tbh.

 

[Pippy1505]

EMR service at Leicester today seemed absolutely dire, I travelled through the station at around 10:15 and was there for awhile and I must’ve heard at least seven or eight trains being delayed or cancelled, one of the only times I was glad to ride on XC.

that was down to a track fault at Elstree.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Class 222s are really showing their age now - I really don't know what ScotRail are thinking in taking them tbh.

The Avanti Voyagers were, as far as Voyagers go, reasonably decent.

So it's nothing a full strip out refurb including new seats can't fix.

(The seats aren't bad per se but they are knackered with broken armrests etc so repair is probably not viable as they are of a quite old design).

 

[dosxuk]

The Class 222s are really showing their age now - I really don't know what ScotRail are thinking in taking them tbh.

They're only halfway through their expected lifespan - the problem with them is that they need a heavy refurb, both on the mechanical and passenger sides. They needed that several years ago - but the 810's were expected to be delivered several years ago - so they've just limped on-and-on-and-on - going from the pretty decent trains they were when new, to the creaking, smelly, unreliable things they are today.

As long as Scotrail give them a good going over before they're introduced, they'll be absolutely fine.

 

[cactustwirly]

EMR intercity - As bad as xc? Discuss.

The trains are crowded, far to short and getting quite tatty yet EMR seem to escape the criticism fired at XC for the same things.

How come?

Today I have to use EMR to get to Nottingham and the trains are rammed packed

Historically they had the HSTs, you knew what service to aim for for a seat.

The 222s are worked really hard, no real replacement for the HSTs so a reduction in capacity in real terms (equivalent to 10 5 car 222s) based on the old Mon-Sat 5 all day Nottingham diagrams. Probably more if you include the peak extras to Sheffield/Leeds they used to work

Plus the fact they are space inefficient and have far too much first class.
They were always very busy so always tried to avoid the meridian services and gravitate towards the HSTs, they had better luggage capacity and basically double the seats. When I was travelling between home and uni between 2017 and early 2020

 

[dk1]

The Class 222s are really showing their age now - I really don't know what ScotRail are thinking in taking them tbh.

It’s only cosmetic. They’ll emerge good as new with a decent refurb job.

 

[basfordlad]

Arguably EMR get less attention because as dire as they might be currently there is a plan to do something about it (the 810's) which unfortunately has gone wrong. Will it probably still go further wrong, yes but at least some glimmer of hope exists.

CrossCountry has been under capacity for years, shows no signs of getting better and seems to for whatever reason be actively trying to sabotage the capacity it does run (not paying / not recruiting catering grades required to run two sets coupled.) CrossCountry isn't even looking at new rolling stock, is likely to be split up as part of GBR regionalisation and arguably hasn't had enough capacity since when the 220/221 fleet was introduced.

Whats gone wrong?

 

[liamf656]

The Class 222s are really showing their age now - I really don't know what ScotRail are thinking in taking them tbh.

I strongly believe they'd be really good trains if they didn't work as intensively as they have done post-pandemic, and they had a proper refurbishment (capacity aside)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whats gone wrong?

The classic "we're getting new trains so will let the old ones go to rack and ruin" thing that happens every single time.

 

[Transilien]

Why did EMR feel the need to get rid of its HSTs before the 810s arrived? In hindsight it probably would have made more sense to retain them until the 810s were actually ready.

 

[JonathanH]

Why did EMR feel the need to get rid of its HSTs before the 810s arrived? In hindsight it probably would have made more sense to retain them until the 810s were actually ready.

The HSTs didn't have power doors or sensible access for persons with reduced mobility, and part of the capacity was replaced by using 360s from London to Corby.

What percentage of EMR London services actually have an issue with overcrowding? What are the bad times?

 

[Randomer]

Whats gone wrong?

See the Traction and Rolling Stock Thread but briefly the modification to shorter carriages from the base 26m IET design hasn't gone well and issues have arisen in testing with electrical wiring potentially needing wholesale replacement. Or in other words don't buy trains partially manufactured by what was AnsaldoBreda (as the Danish State Railway learnt, at least an 810 hasn't ended up in Libya under unclear circumstances like a IC4 set did.)

Effectively the risk is that EMR have to hand back the Class 222 units which are already allocated to other operators before the new trains are fit to enter service. EMR already have less intercity capacity than when they were running a mix of Class 222 and HST. Without the Class 222 units they effectively don't have an intercity service.

Thinking more on this I'd say XC are very situational on how busy some services are but the 4 coach services trend towards being overcrowded on every journey I take on them. To the point that I actively avoid journeys on them if I can.

The default for any service shouldn't be full and standing to the point that aisles and vestibules are full. The last 4 XC services I have been on have been this crowded (two more I avoided by taking slower services by different operators.) I'm talking about midweek middle of the day services not those I would traditionally have expected to be overcrowded. I think my main point of comparison is that EMR intercity the times I have taken them midweek middle of the day haven't been as overcrowded but again these things are all personal perception.

 

[childwallblues]

The HSTs didn't have power doors or sensible access for persons with reduced mobility, and part of the capacity was replaced by using 360s from London to Corby.

What percentage of EMR London services actually have an issue with overcrowding? What are the bad times?

Unknown but five of us travelled on the 1132 from Derby to Leicester on Tuesday and it was crush mode in the vestibule.

 

[thenorthern]

Why did EMR feel the need to get rid of its HSTs before the 810s arrived? In hindsight it probably would have made more sense to retain them until the 810s were actually ready.

The HSTs didn't have power doors or sensible access for persons with reduced mobility, and part of the capacity was replaced by using 360s from London to Corby.

What percentage of EMR London services actually have an issue with overcrowding? What are the bad times?

They also lacked retention tanks which of course is a requirement now (I think).

From personal experience, the worst overcrowding is when one of the East Midlands clubs is playing against a London team particularly if it's a Premiership match.

 

[Merle Haggard]

The HSTs didn't have power doors or sensible access for persons with reduced mobility, and part of the capacity was replaced by using 360s from London to Corby.

What percentage of EMR London services actually have an issue with overcrowding? What are the bad times?

About once a week, weekday, I travel Down from Kettering changing at Leicester not long after midday, returning late afternoon/early evening and there's always passengers sitting in the low vestibule seats and a few standing there. That's at off-peak times and against the flow on the return.

 

[kevjs]

The HSTs didn't have power doors or sensible access for persons with reduced mobility, and part of the capacity was replaced by using 360s from London to Corby.

What percentage of EMR London services actually have an issue with overcrowding? What are the bad times?

IME the first Off Peak and Super Off Peak services out of London (to Nottingham) have been overcrowded for years (since mid 2010s at least), often full of standing passengers all the way to Leicester blocking the aisles, and later in the week the first few after them are usually full too - might be the odd spare seat but to use it your moving a case into the aisle (as the racks are full and overhead don't fit anything). Morning southbound (Super) Off Peaks aren't usually as bad - I'd say more popular than busy.

Not peak tube levels of overcrowding, but not great considering tickets prices and it's over an hour to Leicester!

Not reached the levels of Nottingham to Manchester where whatever service you seem to get is between busy and rammed (a massive change from 20 years ago in the Central Trains day where I often had a carriage to myself travelling to and from uni!), but slowly heading that way (and the luggage racks are regularly overflowing).

(Note, pre COVID I always used to get the Semi Fasts to ensure a Meridian as I found the leg room on the HSTs to be lacking and seats uncomfortable and difficult to fit in with the armrests in the way, so the larger HSTs might have been less crowded)

 

[Bletchleyite]

IME the first Off Peak and Super Off Peak services out of London (to Nottingham) have been overcrowded for years (since mid 2010s at least), often full of standing passengers all the way to Leicester blocking the aisles, and later in the week the first few after them are usually full too - might be the odd spare seat but to use it your moving a case into the aisle (as the racks are full and overhead don't fit anything). Morning southbound (Super) Off Peaks aren't usually as bad - I'd say more popular than busy.

LNER have an answer for that. Not one most of us like of course...

(Note, pre COVID I always used to get the Semi Fasts to ensure a Meridian as I found the leg room on the HSTs to be lacking and seats uncomfortable and difficult to fit in with the armrests in the way, so the larger HSTs might have been less crowded)

I prefer the Meridian interior to the HST, but 5 car trains are simply not suitable for any London InterCity service aside from very quiet times of day, least of all ones with the inefficient layouts that plague all 22x.

 

[voyagerdude220]

I think it's a shame that the 222s are so knackered. Similarly to XC 220/221s, I suspect that if the 222s weren't worked so hard and had more time out of service, they'd be in a far better state.

 

[BJames]

On EMR 222s, don't rely on no first class window sticker meaning that that area is declassified! There's a lot of windows in first class with no label (presumably when steamed-up ones have been replaced) , and the coaches that are used as the MC in 222103/4 don't have any labels at all.
Best indicator of first class is if the triangular menu card is on the table.

I used 103 yesterday and there are some labels on the window and standard class headrest covers (but a few of these have already fallen off) - I was in Coach D.

I was not aware that there's any declassification at all on the 7 cars in first class but will try and have a look next time I travel.

I did two intercity journeys with EMR this weekend (one today and one yesterday) - 14 minutes late into Nottingham due to the Elstree track fault, and bang on time back into London today. The trains were busy but I was lucky enough to get a 10 car yesterday. Full with some standing (but not as bad as I've seen before) today. Because of the unreliability of the reservations I turn up to the station far earlier than I used to, so that I can go straight through the barriers when platform is called at St Pancras and so that I can get straight onto the train at Nottingham. I don't want to risk not getting a seat. Neither of the trains I was on this weekend showed reservations, and after each stop the train manager apologised and said this was due to a computer fault.

I do think that with the seat covers being replaced things look a little better, but you can tell that things are more worn down than before. Also if you know where to look for the declassified first you can get quite a comfortable journey if on a semi-flexible ticket - but I look forward to seeing what the 810s can do to uplift the line hopefully...

My biggest complaint though of my journey today was the toilet provision - the first class accessible toilet wasn't working, the next toilet had no water, and the toilet on the other end of the train was disgusting.

 

[Trainman40083]

I think that was due to the mechanised train wash facility being broken for a long time - presumably, it was fixed eventually although I don't remember it being mentioned here.

I thought the train wash at Derby had been taken out of use, due to the depot extension works, nearest to the mainline.

 

[222-005]

The part of the third 1st class coach nearest to standard on the 7 car units is permanently declassified (window stickers removed) although a lot of people don't realise this and I don't think EMR tend to publicise it. The train crew do enforce it and make sure the declassified section don't get complimentaries.

Coach F on 7 car closest to standard does still remain First Class it is only ever declassified by the Train manager. as when there is over crowding in Standard.

 

[duffield]

I thought the train wash at Derby had been taken out of use, due to the depot extension works, nearest to the mainline.

Maybe the issue was that when the Derby facility was closed there was an alternative train wash they were supposed to use, but that one was broken. I'm sure we were told that "the train wash is broken" at the time.

 

[SirAlf]

I don't want to risk not getting a seat. Neither of the trains I was on this weekend showed reservations, and after each stop the train manager apologised and said this was due to a computer fault.

That is more or less normal. As i said up-thread, if I’ve heard that excuse once I’ve heard it a hundred times. Leaving aside other issues (most of which, as a layman passenger, I’m not qualified to speak on) that aspect is the one that I forbine am utterly sick if hearing. Who can’t they fix the “computer fault”? Because the company doesn’t care???

 

[sh24]

Tonights journey, £44.50 in First St Pancras - Nottingham

* £5 extra for First, worth more than that just for the space
* no snacks but TBH that's fine on a 1h40 minute journey.
* on time throughout
* 222 was clean and tidy, including the toilet. I've seen more broken seats and tables on GWR's IET fleet
* seat reservations were working
* busy to Kettering mostly with prosecco fuelled middle aged women but peaceful after

Honestly, I have no complaints with EMR.