The fate of 12802 Mk5a DTS/DBSO.

[Peter Sarf]

Au contraire. The definition of 'spare' is something held in reserve. Although 12814 may have been the originally intended spare it did not perform that task. This was taken by 12802. All this may be semantics or it got lost in translation. I would like to know whether 12802 is in a usable state to be transferred, along with the rest of the fleet, to Chiltern. Where is 12802 now? Years ago it was in Newport.

From the Chiltern Mk5s thread.

From memory I recall 12802 barely, if at all, got beyond testing. DBSO or DTS (not DVT) 12814 was to be the spare but has spent a long time in set TP02(/CH02), almost all of TP02s life so far.

CAF Newport remained the home of 12802 until around the time TPE were sending sets to Long Marston. Then 12802 was sent to join the unused fleet (around Spring 2024, thanks @warwickshire).
As far as I know Long Marston is still where 12802 is.

Due to the lack of use of 12802, as described above, a lot of "enthusiasts" will be interested in 12802. As are you.

To broaden out the question (failing to answer it) :-
Maybe 12802 will move, perhaps as far as Eastleigh or to the new Chiltern home deport. BUT consider the fact that 12802, once it became spare, got moved further away from operations (back to the CAF Factory). So Long Marston is not an unreasonable location for something very very unused.

I can guess the cost of storage and space availability will dictate where 12802 goes.

There is a question.
Is 12802 incomplete ? - or is it just a shell ready to be used if another DBSO/DTS gets damaged with main components transferred into 12802 ?.
If 12802 is incomplete that makes use less likely. Furthermore if three of the sets are used to lengthen the other ten sets then there will be three more usable DBSOs/DTSs available.

EDIT
Spelling correction.

 

[nigelsporne]

Thank you.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

12802 was definitely complete; it was briefly used at least on test / training runs before being swapped out for 12814 wasn't it?

Whether it's been cannibalised or not, that needs someone with inside knowledge to answer. Note, though, that Richard Allan has specifically stated that Chiltern have taken on the entire fleet. It would make sense to include the spare.

 

[Peter Sarf]

12802 was definitely complete; it was briefly used at least on test / training runs before being swapped out for 12814 wasn't it?

Whether it's been cannibalised or not, that needs someone with inside knowledge to answer. Note, though, that Richard Allan has specifically stated that Chiltern have taken on the entire fleet. It would make sense to include the spare.

Yes. I was wondering if 12814 might not have originally been built as a complete vehicle. Maybe the original intention was that it would require parts from another DBSO/DTS *IF* it were to be used as a substitute/replacement. It was obviously not a "hot spare" given that apart from 12802s long term (permanent ?) substitution by 12814 there have been no other formation swaps that I am aware of - ever.

To add. The fact 12802 went back to CAF either means it was not strictly speaking "part of the fleet" once swapped out OR that there was something wrong with it requiring rectification that might not have been done - maybe not a priority given the rather light use TPE made of them ?.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

To add. The fact 12802 went back to CAF either means it was not strictly speaking "part of the fleet" once swapped out OR that there was something wrong with it requiring rectification that might not have been done - maybe not a priority given the rather light use TPE made of them ?.

In which case it should easily be possible to re-activate it given that the fleet is now going to be very much more heavily utilised than under TPE?

 

[Peter Sarf]

In which case it should easily be possible to re-activate it given that the fleet is now going to be very much more heavily utilised than under TPE?

Fingers crossed.

Then all it takes perhaps is a completest to make TP02 neat !.
(don't mention £s !).

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I think it's more likely it would only receive attention after everything else has been done and that CH02 will continue with 12814 for now.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I think it's more likely it would only receive attention after everything else has been done and that CH02 will continue with 12814 for now.

Agreed.

Which just leaves those who want it for sight wondering where it will be kept.

 

[nigelsporne]

My recollection, I am not saying this is correct, was that 02 was left at Newport Docks. I saw set TP02 in Manchester not long after their introduction and it had 14 in the consist. 02 was I think still in Newport. I for one would like to see it.

 

[warwickshire]

12802 is on its own at Long Marston, ie not coupled, however I suspect it will probably go to Chiltern as part and package of the Mk5, as a spare, ideally for any possible incident that could see a Mk5 dt, become unusable,

Sadly at the moment they can only be used in fixed formations, and can't be extended in length,

It might have to be dragged to Longsight first to be signed off fit for hand back as it's not visited there yet for any service or repairs,

Then it will have to go to Eastleigh for Chiltern preparation, unless it goes straight there, instead, in which the other ex tp mk5 sets are now doing and will do so in time,
Before use on Chiltern.

Also Dt 12802, might be kept spare at Wembley, for example like Dvt 82303 is, but Dvt 82303 is canabilised for spares,

Dt 12802 might still well possibly be used to replace Dt 12801, on set Tpo1, which is still under repair at Wolverton since October 2023, as the set still has long term issues ie cracks, including a large crack on Dt 12801, still under repair at Wolverton.

 

[Peter Sarf]

My recollection, I am not saying this is correct, was that 02 was left at Newport Docks. I saw set TP02 in Manchester not long after their introduction and it had 14 in the consist. 02 was I think still in Newport. I for one would like to see it.

12802 was used for testing TP02 but swapped soon after/before testing was completed.

 

[BerkshireRails]

Sadly at the moment they can only be used in fixed formations, and can't be extended in length,

Is there anything stopping Chiltern from ordering an extra set to work with 12802 and additional coaches to lengthen the other 13 sets to 6 or 7 coaches and with 68033-68034 provide the extra loco required for the additional set.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Is there anything stopping Chiltern from ordering an extra set to work with 12802 and additional coaches to lengthen the other 13 sets to 6 or 7 coaches and with 68033-68034 provide the extra loco required for the additional set.

DfT / HM Treasury Scrooges...

There's nothing practical that would stop it happening, just the finance issues.

It might have to be dragged to Longsight first to be signed off fit for hand back as it's not visited there yet for any service or repairs,

Then it will have to go to Eastleigh for Chiltern preparation, unless it goes straight there instead which the other ex tp mk5 sets are now doing and will do so in time before use on Chiltern.

I don't see that it would have to go to Longsight first; I would think it will go directly to Eastleigh and get certified after being overhauled - there isn't any practical reason for it need to be signed off at Longsight first.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Is there anything stopping Chiltern from ordering an extra set to work with 12802 and additional coaches to lengthen the other 13 sets to 6 or 7 coaches and with 68033-68034 provide the extra loco required for the additional set.

I read somewhere the maximum is six coaches in length for the ex TPE Mk5as.

As @Peter Mugridge says it will depend on DfT approval. So up to Chiltern to justify needing more than thirteen 5car sets OR ten 6car sets (which requires conversion work). But I imagine Chiltern will be more interested in procuring enough replacements for their DMU fleets and then adding a few extra trains if required.

 

[BerkshireRails]

I read somewhere the maximum is six coaches in length for the ex TPE Mk5as.

As @Peter Mugridge says it will depend on DfT approval. So up to Chiltern to justify needing more than thirteen 5car sets OR ten 6car sets (which requires conversion work). But I imagine Chiltern will be more interested in procuring enough replacements for their DMU fleets and then adding a few extra trains if required.

You would buy additional coaches to extend all sets to 6 coaches rather than having 10 6-car sets and 3 5-car sets. According to the tender doc for the replacement of the 68s locos the Nova3s could be Up to 7 cars long unless that was only for the new locos.

Although Chiltern would be interested in getting more units, loco-hauled trains still have a future with Chiltern, as you can take the diesel 68 off and put on a 99 once parts of the route have been electrified.

 

[Peter Sarf]

You would buy additional coaches to extend all sets to 6 coaches rather than having 10 6-car sets and 3 5-car sets. According to the tender doc for the replacement of the 68s locos the Nova3s could be Up to 7 cars long unless that was only for the new locos.

Although Chiltern would be interested in getting more units, loco-hauled trains still have a future with Chiltern, as you can take the diesel 68 off and put on a 99 once parts of the route have been electrified.

I was thinking one of :-
1) Leave all thirteen sets as they are OR
2) Re form to make ten 6car sets leaving the remaining three Driving Trailer Seconds (TSs) and two First Opens (FOs) redundant OR
3) Extend all thirteen sets with a new Trailer Second (TS) or two.
By the time demand justifies the cost of increasing capacity of individual sets I do not think reforming and losing three sets will make sense. Unless the reforming happens soon.

I doubt locomotive changes mid route will be entertained. That sort of thing has been discontinued for a long time now as it causes extra movements (costing capacity, time and labour). It will be diesel all the way or Bi-Mode. Furthermore by the time there is enough electrification on the Chiltern route to Birmingham the Mk5as will be old enough to replace with Bi-Mode (and with battery) multiple units.

 

[BerkshireRails]

I doubt locomotive changes mid route will be entertained. That sort of thing has been discontinued for a long time now as it causes extra movements (costing capacity, time and labour). It will be diesel all the way or Bi-Mode. Furthermore by the time there is enough electrification on the Chiltern route to Birmingham the Mk5as will be old enough to replace with Bi-Mode (and with battery) multiple units.

The 99s are bi-mode locos so there will be no need to swap loco on route. Electrifaction is meant to happen on the Chiltern Mainline in the 2030s, which would give the Mk5As another 20-25 years of life left.

I was thinking one of :-
1) Leave all thirteen sets as they are OR
2) Re form to make ten 6car sets leaving the remaining three Driving Trailer Seconds (TSs) and two First Opens (FOs) redundant OR
3) Extend all thirteen sets with a new Trailer Second (TS) or two.
By the time demand justifies the cost of increasing capacity of individual sets I do not think reforming and losing three sets will make sense. Unless the reforming happens soon.

Chiltern looked at reforming the coaches and it wasn't worth the cost to redo build some coaches. Hence if you want to extend it you will order new coaches from CAF which could feature level boarding.

 

[nigelsporne]

I got the impression from the video interview that the Mk5s were on a 10 year lease and the financial case was tight. The 10 years might fit in with electrification but the justification for revamping the sets could be financially problematic. An increase in frequency is on the cards so that is all we may get.

 

[87electric]

My recollection, I am not saying this is correct, was that 02 was left at Newport Docks. I saw set TP02 in Manchester not long after their introduction and it had 14 in the consist. 02 was I think still in Newport. I for one would like to see it.

There is a photo on flickr of 12802 going through Cheadle Hulme on delivery. What is distinctive is it has a white number.
I'll link the general tagged Mark 5a page but not to the photographers own page. I have seen 12802 at Longsight but can't locate the date. My first sighting of TP02 with 12814 is 22/04/2022.

"DTS 12802 at Cheadle Hulme in the consist of 5Q43 09:00 Portbury Automotive Terminal - Manchester International Depot (Longsight), hauled by 37611 ‘Pegasus’ + 37884 ‘Cepheus’ / 47812 and conveying the first of TPE’s Mk 5a carriages, on 25/05/18"
https://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/mark5a/

 

[Peter Sarf]

The 99s are bi-mode locos so there will be no need to swap loco on route. Electrifaction is meant to happen on the Chiltern Mainline in the 2030s, which would give the Mk5As another 20-25 years of life left.

The 99s are not powerful enough on diesel to run the Chiltern passenger service unless very little of the route is left unwired. The 99s have roughly the diesel power of a 37 - a lot less than a 68.

Chiltern looked at reforming the coaches and it wasn't worth the cost to redo build some coaches. Hence if you want to extend it you will order new coaches from CAF which could feature level boarding.

My take was that Chiltern could not justify the cost of conversion to the DfT. When (hopefully) route capacity is reached then longer trains become more of a favourable option. I am not sure what the costs would be BUT re-marshaling one Trailer Second into each of nine existing sets would not be a big task. Granted three of those rakes would have an extra coach with an accessible toilet etc in them (which could be addressed at a cost if really desired). The tenth set would rely on converstion of a Trailer First coach, re-arranging the seats would be the easy part for that but the difficult part will be altering the non-gangway end to have a gangway (probably robbed from a redundant Trailer First).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Wasn't the whole point of having a "spare" DTS the ability to swap it out at relatively short notice if one suffered minor damage? It wasn't really analogous to the spare 158 bodyshells that were kept at (iirc) Derby in the event of a vehicle being damaged beyond repair. That's not to say it wouldn't have been cannibalised for parts at some point, but the idea that it would be supplied incomplete pretty much defeats the object of having a spare in the first place.

 

[Mag_seven]

Wasn't the whole point of having a "spare" DTS the ability to swap it out at relatively short notice if one suffered minor damage? It wasn't really analogous to the spare 158 bodyshells that were kept at (iirc) Derby in the event of a vehicle being damaged beyond repair. That's not to say it wouldn't have been cannibalised for parts at some point, but the idea that it would be supplied incomplete pretty much defeats the object of having a spare in the first place.

Thread reopened to allow @Peter Sarf to update.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Thank you @Mag_seven.

First a missing update (my fault) / recap.
12802 replaced 12806 for a while in CH06 (previously known as TP02). As far as I can tell it never left Long Marston in that formation and was (is still) in plain livery.

That was sometime before Christmass 2025.

It's definitely 12802 now in set CH06.

Go to 3:40 at the below.

On Friday 06/03/2026 set CH06 powered by 68026 left Long Marston on 5Q86 without 12802 but with 12806 re-insertred. Currently now at Eastleigh no doubt being got ready for a rotation of serice with Chiltern.

Set 06 currently on the move from Long Marston to Eastleigh with 68026. Reported as usual formation with 12806 rather than 12802. Confirmed sightings would be welcome. Thanks.

+

5Q86

11506 12716 12717 12718 12806

Dan

So 12802 remains at Long Marston and did not gain the new livery as far as I can tell. Furthermore it appears it is not in a very usable condition according to the below.

As fair as I am aware, 12802 is defefective in some manner.
12806 would indeed be in its rightful formation.

.......................

This raises more questions than answers about 12802.

Will 12802 ever get taken to Eastleigh for re-livery (or even elsewhere) ?.
Is it really in a condition where it is not ever likely to get used ?.
(I presume not necessarily drastically incapable but probably bereft of some major components).
Why was 12802 removed from TP02 so early, was it to allow 12814 to be commissioned ?.
(Was there something wrong that forced its removal from TP02).
Where will 12802 be kept ?.
How did 1280s get to Long Marston from CAF Newport.
(I assume most likely on its own by road as everything has to leave Newport by road).

I suspect 12802s moves, if it makes any, will be by road.

EDIT (11:15 09/03/2026)
A further question / request. Worth keeping an eye out to see if 12802 changes its livery.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Update 20/05/2026

I read somewhere recently that 12802 very early on suffered a broken windscreen and that was the reason 12814 replaced it in set number 2.
That would suggest, even if not fixed, that 12802 is almost complete and capable.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I have accidentally found the information I thought I had read.

Here it is (back 03/05/2026).

12802 will be commissioned along with all other MK5a vehicles for Chiltern. This will be done once all sets are on lease and recommissioned. My understanding 12802 was removed to allow 12814 to be accepted and there was never a need to swap them back. It's quite a lengthy process as the DT holds all the networking equipment. Chiltern will have 12802 available after the other sets are done.

+

12802 was in use with TPE in the correct set for a short time before it's windscreen got broken. It was replaced with the spare DT whilst under repair, it never worked for TPE again.

So 12802 might well see service but it is a faff to swap a Driving Trailer (Second class). These dang computers.