EMR intercity - As bad as xc?

[Tetchytyke]

Maybe it was a bad idea in 2007 to combine the Midland Mainline intercity with the Central Trains local services who knows.

I think it probably was, everything got dragged down to Central Trains level. Stagecoach’s usual penny pinching, such as when they binned off all the buffet staff and replaced them with a RailGourmey trolley, certainly didn’t help.

 

[m0ffy]

The trains are knackered, but comfortable, and EMR’s (and EMT’s, and MM’s) staff are excellent. Unfortunately their fares are higher than Avanti’s on similar routes

All of this boils down to one thing really. The Government, the Conservative Party, the Labour Party but most of all the EU all seem to hate the East Midlands.



The Class 360s and the Corby branch are a bit of a strange one. On paper it looks like the Government has spent a lot of money on the East Midlands by electfying a line and doubling the amount of services to London and providing more seats. In reality though it's only helped a small part of the edge of the East Midlands in what is the second smallest county by population in the region (smallest is of course Rutland). Dare I say it as well many people in Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire would not consider Northamptonshire to be the "East Midlands".

The East Midlands is the ginger step child of England, seen as fit for only mineral extraction, warehouses, and power generation.

 

[A S Leib]

yet EMR seem to escape the criticism fired at XC for the same things

Few people outside the Kettering to Sheffield area tend to need to use EMR intercity services, and even if going from e.g. London to Derby, there's LNR / Avanti and CrossCountry as alternatives, whilst CrossCountry has a much larger area of the country to complain about it.

 

[VItraveller]

EMR service at Leicester today seemed absolutely dire, I travelled through the station at around 10:15 and was there for awhile and I must’ve heard at least seven or eight trains being delayed or cancelled, one of the only times I was glad to ride on XC.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Few people outside the Kettering to Sheffield area tend to need to use EMR intercity services, and even if going from e.g. London to Derby, there's LNR / Avanti and CrossCountry as alternatives, whilst CrossCountry has a much larger area of the country to complain about it.

Well there is also Wellingborough, with surrounding towns for which it's the railhead, about 100,000 population. Interesting, Wellingborough to Leicester and Nottingham passenger numbers seem to have plummeted since 2019. Might be the introduction of the more tedious journey rather than the usual 'Covid'. Barriers introduced, which ought to have increased detected passenger numbers.
I would also guess that traveling from Luton to Leicester and Nottingham might also be popular. Certainly lots of passengers changing to and from the Connect services at Kettering that aren't using Wellingborough.
The connections at Kettering (and Leicester for Sheffield) seem to work well although obviously slower than when a through service was provided.

But certainly concur the staff are very good. Very rare indeed for no host in first - can't recall any incidents.

The East Midlands is the ginger step child of England, seen as fit for only mineral extraction, warehouses, and power generation.

You can add iron and steelworks (Wellingborough, Kettering, Corby) and don't forget iron ore in mineral extraction around here. Plenty of pollution left - big holes in the ground 'landscaped' and covered in pine forest, and look up 'Corby contamination' on the web. Warehouses - we're in the 'Golden Triangle' sounds idyllic doesn't it? Enormous boxes on good agricultural land.

 

[Edvid]

I thought [...] that the 360 refurb will start soon.

360s still failing a lot. "soon' promised since they arrived.

The first 360 is (finally!) undergoing its overdue refurb.

 

[bramling]

The trains are knackered, but comfortable, and EMR’s (and EMT’s, and MM’s) staff are excellent. Unfortunately their fares are higher than Avanti’s on similar routes


The East Midlands is the ginger step child of England, seen as fit for only mineral extraction, warehouses, and power generation.

It’s always been the case that the East Midlands doesn’t have the political clout that places like the WM, Liverpool and Manchester have. However it isn’t the only part of England that feels somewhat left out. Same could be said for the north-east, the west / south-west, and to be honest the non-London south-east as well in many ways. The likes of Leicester, Derby, Nottingham and even Sheffield simply don’t seem to have the profile of other places, for whatever reason.

 

[Merle Haggard]

The first 360 is (finally!) undergoing its overdue refurb.

Great news; but do you know what's involved? Will it be mechanical/electrical equipment put into a reliable state and 2+2 seats, or just new seat covers and the carpets cleaned?
A cynic might have a notion...

 

[A S Leib]

and to be honest the non-London south-east as well in many ways

Even within London, half of children in the Bethnal Green and Stepney constituency are in poverty; 35% of children in London as a whole and only lower as a region than the West Midlands. (This data is from a Newham Recorder article from a Loughborough University report; the article doesn't say but I think this is after housing costs.)

Back on topic, I'd guess splitting up EMR's intercity and regional operations (which might come with GBR anyway) wouldn't do much, given that I think most of GWR's issues are infrastructure rather than having to run both, and Avanti hasn't had the best of reputations as an intercity-only operator?

 

[dk1]

The first 360 is (finally!) undergoing its overdue refurb.

That is great news, thank you.

 

[LowLevel]

I think it probably was, everything got dragged down to Central Trains level. Stagecoach’s usual penny pinching, such as when they binned off all the buffet staff and replaced them with a RailGourmey trolley, certainly didn’t help.

The service standards were still excellent (though not as good as MML) until the franchise ended in 2015, then it seemed to be a slow decline. I don't think it could reasonably be said to be anywhere near the level of the awful Central Trains!

 

[dk1]

The service standards were still excellent (though not as good as MML) until the franchise ended in 2015, then it seemed to be a slow decline. I don't think it could reasonably be said to be anywhere near the level of the awful Central Trains!

Oh my days. Central Trains was often referred to internally as rotten to the core.

 

[thenorthern]

It will be interesting to see what happens under GBR. From a personal perspective under the old system, the EMR intercity services would be under Intercity and possibly the Liverpool to Norwich would be as well. The regional services would be regional railways, and the EMR Connect services would be Network South East.

I think it probably was, everything got dragged down to Central Trains level. Stagecoach’s usual penny pinching, such as when they binned off all the buffet staff and replaced them with a RailGourmey trolley, certainly didn’t help.

I wouldn't blame Stagecoach entirely, they did relatively well with the Virgin West Coast Franchise in improving the services. I know this will make me unpopular but they also improved the Virgin Cross Country services by introducing more trains and having the regular clockface timetable with more trains on their core main routes and introducing new faster trains (yes the Voyagers).

The 2007 East Midlands Franchise as a whole was a bit meh, although the DfT was mostly to blame for that. The stock allocation didn't help with the intercity fleet staying the same from the Midland Mainline days but many of the regional fleet getting shorter and older. I know that the Robin Hood Line, Poacher Line, Crewe to Derby Line, Liverpool to Norwich, Matlock Branch Line, and Leicester to Lincoln Central all had Class 170 units operating on them under Central Trains which were then replaced by a mixture of Class 153s, 156s, and 158s. That was largely down to the DfT more than anything else though.

Even within London, half of children in the Bethnal Green and Stepney constituency are in poverty; 35% of children in London as a whole and only lower as a region than the West Midlands. (This data is from a Newham Recorder article from a Loughborough University report; the article doesn't say but I think this is after housing costs.)

Back on topic, I'd guess splitting up EMR's intercity and regional operations (which might come with GBR anyway) wouldn't do much, given that I think most of GWR's issues are infrastructure rather than having to run both, and Avanti hasn't had the best of reputations as an intercity-only operator?

Difficult to say, with GWR, have the services improved since the Greater Western Franchise started in 2006? The Great Western Main Line services have definitely got better with electrification and the Class 800 trains (yes I said that) however, the services around Bristol, Devon and Cornwall were still largely the same as they were in 2006 until recent improvements.

When First Transpennine Express was created in 2004 it largely took over the former Arriva Trains Northern services which were branded as Transpennine Express. Most services under First Transpennine Express dramatically improved with the introduction of the Class 185s, transferring the Manchester to Scotland services to First Transpennine Express from Virgin CrossCountry was also a good move.

It also allowed a single operator in Northern Rail to focus on regional services in the North of England as the previous system of Arriva Trains Northern and First North Western didn't work well. On the other hand putting the Windermere, Furness and Blackpool North fast services under First Transpennine Express didn't really work which is probably why they returned to the Northern franchise in 2016.

 

[Merseysider]

EMR intercity - As bad as xc? Discuss.

Perhaps an unpopular opinion... but imo no!

I travel with XC and EMR / EMR Intercity fairly often for work events and to see family.

I have always been able to reach my reserved seat on EMR. I have always had breathing space on the occasions I've had to stand. On the occasions I've booked first class, catering has appeared.

I cannot say the same for XC.

 

[godfreycomplex]

Even within London, half of children in the Bethnal Green and Stepney constituency are in poverty; 35% of children in London as a whole and only lower as a region than the West Midlands. (This data is from a Newham Recorder article from a Loughborough University report; the article doesn't say but I think this is after housing costs.)

Absolutely. A lot of people outside London seem to have got their views on the state of the lives of the inhabitants from a Parish Players production of Dick Whittington. But we digress

 

[Recessio]

Though on both journeys I recently took first was pretty much full, so there’s clearly demand for it.

Is this possibly a circular argument: do people shell out for first class tickets because they know it's the only way to guarantee a seat due to there being too much first class seating - this then drives demand for more first class seats on trains, meaning less standard class seats so more chance of standing if you don't pay for first class...

 

[jfowkes]

XC services often have to do double-duty as regional trains (e.g. Sheffield-Doncaster) while also serving long distance trips like Birmingham - Newcastle. It's no wonder they're overstretched. EMR intercity generally isn't like that.
Also XC services have far more chance of getting hit by a disruption somewhere. Lots of interfaces with other lines and operators. By comparison EMR services are much more self contained.

 

[MCR247]

Also XC services have far more chance of getting hit by a disruption somewhere. Lots of interfaces with other lines and operators. By comparison EMR services are much more self contained.

I’d say that used to be the case before the full Thameslink timetable and the EMR connects came in. Not so much now. It feels quite rare to not catch up to something in front or slowing down for Thameslinks to switch to/from the slows

 

[0161]

EMR is nowhere near as crowded as XC. There are trains in Bangladesh which are less packed than those XC operate.
The 222's are comfortable enough, although there's a lot of tacky EMT/Stagecoachy colours and headrests etc.
First Class: It's no Avanti/LNER.
Staff are great though.

 

[thenorthern]

XC services often have to do double-duty as regional trains (e.g. Sheffield-Doncaster) while also serving long distance trips like Birmingham - Newcastle. It's no wonder they're overstretched. EMR intercity generally isn't like that.
Also XC services have far more chance of getting hit by a disruption somewhere. Lots of interfaces with other lines and operators. By comparison EMR services are much more self contained.

I would disagree as Derby to Loughborough/Leicester and Leicester to Market Harborough/Kettering are only possible with EMR London trains. Also Derby to Chesterfield is mostly operated EMR Sheffield to London trains.

Don't get me wrong though, the situation of having intercity trains as the main local service is much worse with CrossCountry. Several routes such as Stoke-on-Trent to Stafford, Banbury to Oxford and Coventry to Leamington Spa have intercity CrossCountry trains as their main service.

 

[pbin]

Great news; but do you know what's involved? Will it be mechanical/electrical equipment put into a reliable state and 2+2 seats, or just new seat covers and the carpets cleaned?
A cynic might have a notion...

The Big Regional refurb: First glimpse of £27.6 million EMR Connect plans | East Midlands Railway News

First conceptual images of new multi-million refurbishment released Class 360 trains will receive extensive improvement Changes include new 2+2 seating arrangements, tables and more luggage space

news.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk

According to the concept images they should be refurbed to be 2+2 seats (with tables!).

 

[Yew]

I would also guess that traveling from Luton to Leicester and Nottingham might also be popular. Certainly lots of passengers changing to and from the Connect services at Kettering that aren't using Wellingborough.

It was very disappointing to find out after Covid, that there were no longer direct services via Luton Airport from Nottingham. I even complained to EMR, and got deflected with EMR Connect - a service that in my view, EMR has no business running.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Aug 2025 ==

That being said, I do worry about the future, there isn't a great uplift in the number of coaches available, particuarly compared to when we had the HSTs, which whilst used for relatively leisurely diagrams, could have been put on to something more intensive.

I could foresee a CrossCountry type scenario evolving in a decade or so.

 

[sh24]

It was very disappointing to find out after Covid, that there were no longer direct services via Luton Airport from Nottingham. I even complained to EMR, and got deflected with EMR Connect - a service that in my view, EMR has no business running.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Aug 2025 ==

That being said, I do worry about the future, there isn't a great uplift in the number of coaches available, particuarly compared to when we had the HSTs, which whilst used for relatively leisurely diagrams, could have been put on to something more intensive.

I could foresee a CrossCountry type scenario evolving in a decade or so.

As noted above, an 810 = 7 car 222 which is quite an uplift in available seats

 

[DarloRich]

I have always been able to reach my reserved seat on EMR. I have always had breathing space on the occasions I've had to stand. On the occasions I've booked first class, catering has appeared.

I would have said the same until recently. My recent journeys have been as bad as XC.

My only comment on first class is that there is FAR to much of it on the class 222 trains. Needs riping out and limited to one carriage or just binned entirely

 

[Yew]

As noted above, an 810 = 7 car 222 which is quite an uplift in available seats

My understanding is that is mainly due to a change in the proportion of first class accommodation though, rather than Japanese Hitachi Magic, so I don't think it's an entirely fair comparison.

 

[liamf656]

My understanding is that is mainly due to a change in the proportion of first class accommodation though, rather than Japanese Hitachi Magic, so I don't think it's an entirely fair comparison.

Better use of the space is the main reason 810s have more seats. There will be no buffet bar and the toilets will be repositioned giving a lot more space

 

[43066]

At a pinch: EMR generally suffers from a knackered fleet, staff are generally very friendly and make the best of a difficult situation. Reliability is actually pretty good generally and certainly better than XC.

 

[tbtc]

Good idea for a thread, kudos to the OP

It also seems to put paid to the oft-used line that 'the government don't care about XC because it doesn't serve London; if MPs had to use it then it would suddenly get massive investment'

Some history is probably required. I think BR had the Cross Country and Midland Mainline in the same business division, they had more in common with each other than they did with the 'flagship' bits of InterCity. The restaurant cars and superior First Class offerings on the ECML/ GEMLs have never in the same ballpark as these routes

Both lines did well in the early tranche of privatisation though. I'm not convinced that the transformational investments would have happened otherwise, after decades of relying on cascades under BR

Both lines used their new trains to double frequencies on their core sections with a token expansion beyond (Matlock, Swansea etc)

XC went for a fully new fleet and attracted a lot of criticism. MM less so, possibly because their short DMUs (two coach 170s) were in addition to their HSTs (whilst XC were directly replacing theirs)

XC saw a big boost to passenger numbers but the government wouldn't back their plans for follow up investment

MM were allowed to have two further capacity boosts. Three coach 170s replaced two coaches. Then four coach 222s to replace those, with some nine coach ones introduced for the planned hourly London - Leeds service (one of my favourite "what if" scenarios)

The Leeds service wasn't allowed, and the franchise stopped it's boom era. The 222s were reformed into four, five and seven carriages, partly replacing some HSTs on the existing timetable (with the token extensions to Matlock etc removed)

I don't remember the other bidders when Stagecoach won the EMT franchise, were there any optimistic alternatives? Whilst people complained about the "no growth" Northern and Wales & Borders franchises let around the same time, the East Midlands got a similarly unambitious winner

In fairness to them, they did get their hands on the Hull Trains 222s, which were pretty much used up by the new Corby service (the introduction of which messed up the simple half hourly service pattern at stations south of Leicester)

But, whilst Hull Trains went from zero to three two coach 170s to four four coach 222s to five five coach 180s to five five coach 802s, the semi fast services on the Midland Mainline didn't keep pace - comparing the line to the fast Anglo-Scottish seems fanciful when the MML can't even compete with Hull services

Maybe Chiltern is a benchmark. They're still running Turbo stars from London to the West Midlands, but avoid criticism because they offer cheaper fares than Avanti (and possibly also because they have a small number of loco hauled trains a day, so avoid so much enthusiast criticism?)

Today, neither EMR or XC are particularly enjoyable journeys

The good news for EMR passengers is that there is light at the end of the tunnel. 143 carriages of 222s will be replaced by 165 carriages of 810s (and with better internal design/ a better ratio of first: standard). Introduce more seats, improved reliability, that'll solve most of the problems. The limited capacity at St Pancras (and on the line through St Albans etc) stop longer term growth, but with one type of train on long distance service the platform capacity should be better used than the days when the 'fast' Nottingham HST regularly sat at St Pancras for sixty five minutes

XC looks a much harder nut to crack. The huge fleet size/ large number of depots/ huge number of pinch points/ almost always being at the mercy of other services...

At least EMR have some flexibility to improve their timetables. Even if you build nine coach 802s for every service, XC seem stuck with poor paths/ long intermediate dwell times/ inevitable staff swaps that often leave crew and trains in the wrong place for each other as a northbound delay can mean no staff to take over a southbound service (or no train for that driver to take over)

Plus, whilst the raison d'être of the MML services seems fairly straightforward, XC are trapped between being focusing on busy routes between cities (Bristol/ Manchester/ Leeds/ Oxford etc into Birmingham - relatively middle distance journeys) with the romantic notions of trains providing facilities needed for direct services from Aberdeen to Penzance

So by 2030, EMR should be looking better. Fifteen percent more carriages on long distance services (with better capacity/ dwells at the London end) should solve a lot of their problems, if the 810s are reasonably reliable. But they've got some short term pain to endure, with the longest 222s snapped up by Open Access

TL;DR - They're both pretty rubbish experiences right now but they were both pretty rubbish thirty years ago - the huge improvements in the early years of privatisation weren't didn't receive the necessary government guarantees/ funding to sustain them

 

[DJ_K666]

Ok, let's be fair to XC.

I recently (and unfortunately) had to make the journey down to Wales, family funeral.

I opted to go by train so I could have a drink and this meant Rugby to Brum New Street then New Street to Newport. I bought a separate ticket for the one stop hop to Cwmbran.

It meant using the XC Nottingham to Cardiff service.
Despite all the talk of XC being horrible, the train arrived on time, a class 170 Turbostar. There was a drinks trolley that did a half decent cup of tea and it got to Newport pretty much on time. On board the guard came round and checked tickets (this was my first time using an M-ticket) and scanned it, no problem. It was fast as well, University, Worc. Parkway, Cheltenham, Gloucester, Chepstow and Newport. You can really feel it dropping down the Lickey Incline that's for sure.

Coming back the train was again on time and got me into New Street in good time for the train back to Rugby.

So for my one and only journey on XC it was s good one. I'm not sure I'd I'll need to travel again between now and 2027 so don't know if any subsequent journey would be hellish.

 

[Skymonster]

EMR has consistently over-promised and under-delivered in all of its brand manifestations, including Intercity, since it began operations - from new trains, through interior refurbishments, to conveniences such as on-train and at-station Wifi. I suspected as much as soon as it became obvious that EMR was prioritising repaints over passenger comfort and facilities. It is a sad inditement of the Intercity operation in particular that for customers living in the East Midlands alternatives such as Nottingham-London via Grantham, and Derby-London via Tamworth, are sometimes more appealing and often cheaper than EMR.