How Viable are Preserved Railways?

[Belperpete]

I'm not going to touch costs/overheads as it's all been said, except one thing...maybe stop running non passenger goods services and short "branch line" trains at gala's and events to reduce costs.

If you take away the extra things like goods trains, it ceases to be a gala. But you have a point that while a gala may attract a lot of people, all the extra costs of bringing in extra stock and running extra trains can seriously affect their profitability.

Why do so few lines run mixed trains at galas? These used to be a staple of branch line operations.

 

[railfan99]

North Norfolk Railway appears to be financially viable.

From the accounts that I viewed.

While not relevant because it's not a large enough sample, on the day I visited, patronage was good, even though it was just a normal operating day in September. By the way, volunteers were very friendly.

 

[driverd]

There are a number of issues with comparing HR with high street cafes.

A HR should have records of how many people visit and how many people use the catering, but visitors aren't homogenous and some will want a quality meal and others will want a bacon bap. A high street cafes can decide which bit of the market to address, a HR also has to, but that means some people will be disappointed.

A cafe will have a steady stream of people passing and whilst there will be peaks and troughs, they won't be as peaky as a railway where an arriving train will drop several hundred people potentially outside the cafe.

A cafe will often be open 6 or 7 days a week, underperformance 1 day means most good can be held over to the next. On a railway, operations may only be 3 or 4 days a week leading to higher wastage.

But this is precisely my point. Many PR cafés are located on or near a high street (not at all locations of course) and a few immediate examples of good locations that spring to mind include Keighley, Haworth (benefiting from a good car park for the lower end of town), Pickering, Grosmont, Kidderminster, Llangollen.

If the cafés at these locations were set up as primarily a café business that benefits from additional trade on operating days (either by letting the premises to a private business or having someone with experience run the catering), they could leverage their advantages (mainly no building rent to pay and a unique and interesting locations akin to a garden centre café) and potentially turn whats often an after thought into a year round element of the railway that brings a modest profit in. All it takes is a competent manager, well thought out menu and a bit of an interior refresh to make the cafés a desirable place to be, trains running or not.

Its never going to be a huge element of the railway, but every little helps and I'm sure there must be some good examples out there of railways that succeed in this regard (perhaps Keighley?).

 

[xotGD]

maybe stop running non passenger goods services

These have been turned into passenger services by selling brake van rides as an add-on to the normal fare, thereby generating extra revenue.

Haworth

There isn't a cafe on Haworth station. There are a couple just outside.

 

[Djgr]

From the accounts that I viewed.

While not relevant because it's not a large enough sample, on the day I visited, patronage was good, even though it was just a normal operating day in September. By the way, volunteers were very friendly.

And there is much about the North Norfolk Railway which makes it first class.

 

[duffield]

From the accounts that I viewed.

While not relevant because it's not a large enough sample, on the day I visited, patronage was good, even though it was just a normal operating day in September. By the way, volunteers were very friendly.

When I visited in May, again on a normal operating day, the steam services looked absolutely packed, and the DMU (which I was there for) was pretty full. There seemed to be some coach party traffic involved.

 

[simonw]

From the accounts that I viewed.

While not relevant because it's not a large enough sample, on the day I visited, patronage was good, even though it was just a normal operating day in September. By the way, volunteers were very friendly.

If you read the directors report, you might not be so upbeat

 

[driverd]

There isn't a cafe on Haworth station. There are a couple just outside.

Yes - sorry that was my point - it seems like a good locations for one, be that in a repurposed existing building or a new cabin type affair. Especially with the lovely gardens at Haworth, shoudl some platform seating could be an option.

 

[simonw]

Yes - sorry that was my point - it seems like a good locations for one, be that in a repurposed existing building or a new cabin type affair. Especially with the lovely gardens at Haworth, shoudl some platform seating could be an option.

It's the wrong side of the tracks compared with where the tourists go.

 

[30907]

Yes - sorry that was my point - it seems like a good locations for one, be that in a repurposed existing building or a new cabin type affair. Especially with the lovely gardens at Haworth, shoudl some platform seating could be an option.

The gardens are indeed excellent, but the platform is narrow and there's no space for an additional building owing to the Beck below - anything else would have to be incthe car park (though I believe there was a hut in the forecourt in the early days). Haworth station is busy, but it's not a place where people linger - as soon as they have photographed the train leaving they head off up the hill to the tourist attractions (numerous eateries among them), so the market is only for a brew and a cake while they wait for their train home. Oxenhope buffet works because people are there for a while, there's room for seating outside and in, and there's no competition locally.

 

[driverd]

It's the wrong side of the tracks compared with where the tourists go.

The gardens are indeed excellent, but the platform is narrow and there's no space for an additional building owing to the Beck below - anything else would have to be incthe car park (though I believe there was a hut in the forecourt in the early days). Haworth station is busy, but it's not a place where people linger - as soon as they have photographed the train leaving they head off up the hill to the tourist attractions (numerous eateries among them), so the market is only for a brew and a cake while they wait for their train home. Oxenhope buffet works because people are there for a while, there's room for seating outside and in, and there's no competition locally.

That's what I'm getting at, though. The aim shouldn't be to serve tourists but to create a destination for locals/people who would travel 20 mins for a nice lunch at a unique location (similar to the garden centre clientele). The tourist market is an added bonus on days trains run.

The Haworth suggestion was more hypothetically highlighting that the station is well placed, but if one were to proceed with the idea a café could be located in a cabin type building in the forecourt, perhaps using the platforms on non-running days for outdoor seating - atleast thats how I would envision it. The vision I'm suggesting for PR catering is a more modern version of the café at Hellifield. Its an interesting location that people go to, rather than just relying on passing trade.

I just gave Haworth as a well located example - near the non-touristy side of town that isn't as well served and benefits from a large car park and rent-free real estate.

 

[simonw]

That's what I'm getting at, though. The aim shouldn't be to serve tourists but to create a destination for locals/people who would travel 20 mins for a nice lunch at a unique location (similar to the garden centre clientele). The tourist market is an added bonus on days trains run.

The Haworth suggestion was more hypothetically highlighting that the station is well placed, but if one were to proceed with the idea a café could be located in a cabin type building in the forecourt, perhaps using the platforms on non-running days for outdoor seating - atleast thats how I would envision it. The vision I'm suggesting for PR catering is a more modern version of the café at Hellifield. Its an interesting location that people go to, rather than just relying on passing trade.

I just gave Haworth as a well located example - near the non-touristy side of town that isn't as well served and benefits from a large car park and rent-free real estate.

A cabin in a car park doesn't sound that inviting to me, when you can cross the footbridge and access a whole range of cafes/restaurants in a much nicer part of the town. But if you think its a flyer suggest it to the railway.

 

[Uncle Buck]

That's what I'm getting at, though. The aim shouldn't be to serve tourists but to create a destination for locals/people who would travel 20 mins for a nice lunch at a unique location (similar to the garden centre clientele). The tourist market is an added bonus on days trains run.

100% agree.

 

[Bertone]

The closest Heritage railway to me is the Buckinghamshire Railway Centre which when the grandsons were very much younger we used to visit for the Santa special and a few times during the year.
I have not visited for many years now but like to see from their website what events are on during the year.
What I do find interesting is that there are very few steaming days now but the cafe is open from 9.30 to 2.00 Monday to Friday on non steaming days with a fairly comprehensive menu it appears, including a full English.
I do wonder how much trade they do when the majority of the site is not accessible to visitors.
There is quite a lot to see for the enthusiasts but unfortunately not on non steaming days!

 

[Dave W]

Perhaps an example directed at families - I was at Hertfordshire Zoo yesterday. You didn't just get a zoo, there was kids entertainment, a miniature railway, a cosplayers group had turned up, there's a crazy golf course, as well as a very well curated set of varied species to look at from loads of different viewpoints. And of course the big thing is their animatronic dinosaur attraction - think the T Rex at the Natural History Museum but times 20 and in a wood - and the train ride had a few more on too.

There was a 2 quid supplement for the train, an obligatory tenner in the shop, plus four visits to concessions stands for drinks and ice creams. On top of a hefty entrance fee. And the place was rammed...

 

[Belperpete]

If you read the directors report, you might not be so upbeat

Having read the directors' report, I cannot see anything particularly disturbing in there. The North Norfolk have managed to turn losses of £267k in 2022 and £25k in 2023 into a surplus of £208k in 2024. That has partly been achieved by pruning services, which means passenger numbers are down - which goes to show that increasing passenger numbers doesn't necessarily mean increasing profit. Yes they have a relatively high level of borrowings, but they seem to be managing it. The risk associated with the bonds is I think largely theoretical, as in practice most bond holders roll them over, rather than redeem them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2025 ==

Perhaps an example directed at families - I was at Hertfordshire Zoo yesterday. You didn't just get a zoo, there was kids entertainment, a miniature railway, a cosplayers group had turned up, there's a crazy golf course, as well as a very well curated set of varied species to look at from loads of different viewpoints. And of course the big thing is their animatronic dinosaur attraction - think the T Rex at the Natural History Museum but times 20 and in a wood - and the train ride had a few more on too.

There was a 2 quid supplement for the train, an obligatory tenner in the shop, plus four visits to concessions stands for drinks and ice creams. On top of a hefty entrance fee. And the place was rammed...

I think many preserved railways are realising that they have to offer more than just a train ride. Things like a children's play area, for example, are important for young children, and if it can be railway themed even better. I noticed that at Sheffield Park the Bluebell were handing out sheets for children with things to look for on the station. Giving children a list of things to look out for during the journey would give them something to do, rather than them aimlessly looking out of the window.

 

[Parham Wood]

The Snowdon Mountain Railway must have significant operating costs, as it can only carry a very limited number of passengers on each train, each of which is crewed with two members of paid staff. The fares are very expensive as a result, yet sufficient people travel on it to break even.

The Ffestiniog's first class is always the first to fill up, again indicating that there are plenty of people who are prepared to pay a significant fare.

I think some enthusiasts seem to have ideas about pricing that are based more on nostalgia than present day realities. The idea that £20 or £30 per person is too much to pay for a day or even half a day's entertainment is ludicrous. These days, families are prepared to pay significant sums for a day at the likes of Alton Towers.

I spent something like £200 just to get to the Bluebell's recent gala. The Bluebell fare cost was negligible in comparison. Do you really think I would have been put off if the fare were even double what they currently charge?

Yes, putting up the price would mean a drop in the numbers. But it isn't the number of passengers that is important. What is important is to break even, in order for the line to survive. If that means carrying significantly less passengers, paying significantly higher fares, then so be it.

Eyri is a very popular destination at the moment and the mountain itself in particular. Getting a seat on a train often requires booking days in advance at peak times. Very popular on the coach tour itinerary. (My gripe as a walker is the mountain top restaurant does not allow dogs). Narrow gauge track is easier and cheaper to maintain and operating costs must be fairly easy to forecast apart from NI etc increases. Being a special/unique destination helps attract tourists and thus keep up demand.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2025 ==

So we're looking at things like what level of catering makes the most financial sense, since you've got various types such as:

1. Full sit down meals
2. Hot food to eat in or take out such as bacon rolls
3. Cold food but including perishables such as sandwiches
4. Non-perishables only such as confectionery, fizzy drinks, crisps, biscuits etc. plus tea and coffee.

So I guess we're saying some level of catering is probably necessary, but asking questions like whether moving from (say) level 2 to 3, or 3 to 4 would drive enough people away to negate the savings from dropping down a level, and that seems to me to be a more difficult question to answer than whether no catering at all is likely to end badly.
Level 4 does have the great attraction of presumably not needing food hygiene training or a prep area, plus nearly zero waste; I'd wonder how many people who would have made a return visit would not do so due to the lack of sandwiches?

Then, particularly for railways with more stations, there's the question of how many catering outlets and where to put them; for example the cafe at Leicester North on the GCR seems to be of dubious value (I believe it's closed and later re-opened, not sure of its current status), given it's the least attractive station on the line and basically people mostly arrive, watch the loco run round, and depart again 15 minutes later. There is catering at all the other three much more attractive genuine heritage stations plus more to see and do.

I would hope that catering would be tuned to what the local visiting market wanted and should therefore at least break even and hopefully make a profit. Of course longer railways need to have more than one catering outlet so that dilutes the market but on the other hand spreads the demand load which could overwhelm a single establishment on a busy line. At the East Somerset we have a lovely cafe, privately run which is popular with non railway visitors as well so making a win/win situation.

 

[notverydeep]

Adding to the discussion about catering, this is another area that has seen its costs (especially staffing) rise particularly steeply over the last few years. In addition to the problems with rising costs of railway operation, heritage lines that might have been gaining a modest surplus to contribute towards their operation through their catering offer are now finding that area has also become loss making. While every line will have a specific likely market, many lines are likely to find that a decent catering option is still important in encouraging repeat business, particularly from non-enthusiasts. Some may struggle to find a good equilibrium where higher prices for both the train ride and the accompanying lunch generate sufficient additional revenue, while not alienating too many potential visitors...

 

[Mikey C]

I love travelling by train. I spend lots of time on this site. But I have little interest in most preserved railways, as I generally take the train to go somewhere, even if I might take the "scenic route".

If there was only one or two in the country, then the experience going in a preserved train (preferably steam hauled) would be enough in itself. That the journey was on an unexceptional route, and led to nowhere in particular, wouldn't matter.

But when there are lots of competing preserved companies, taking you in a Mk1 carriage through pleasant but unexceptional scenery to nowhere in particular, where after 30 minutes you return again, I'm not surprised they are struggling financially, and rely heavily on Santa specials and real ale days to attract customers. The last preserved railway journey I took was on the Swanage Railway, as it took me to Corfe Castle, i.e. it wasn't just a journey for the sake of a journey. Similarly mountain railways and funiculars aren't just about the the historic vehicle you're in.

And there is a generational issue here too. You have to be well in your 60s for steam railways to be part of your personal "memories", and to remember these closed lines when they were still operational. I wonder how many volunteers will have the skills and enthusiasm to to continue running these railways in the future.

 

[Tom B]

Another pondering - will we see a gradual decline, or will there be some sudden 'landslide' where things start going 'wrong'? Or, will the problems be averted?

As to catering, customer service etc - I'm sure I remember, probably 20+ years ago, a column in one of the railway magazines where the correspondent (unnamed) visited different preserved railways and described it from the 'customer viewpoint' - touching only briefly on things like the traction, or authenticity of the station decor - but focussing on things like car parking, easy to navigate, ticketing, timetabling, visitor facilities, catering, loos, etc. Can't remember more details than that but perhaps someone will remember.

 

[duffield]

I love travelling by train. I spend lots of time on this site. But I have little interest in most preserved railways, as I generally take the train to go somewhere, even if I might take the "scenic route".
...

Recently I've been paying more attention to the various places along the line on heritage railways.

There are quite a few which "go somewhere" (along with many that don't of course).

The SVR "goes somewhere", in fact there are a number of attractive towns along the route including the terminus, Brignorth of course, and places like Bewdley which are well worth a visit,. The scenery along the line is pretty good. Also there are some riverside walks between stations.

I started going to the SVR very much for the heritage experience but recently I've been also using it as a pleasant extension to the national rail network.

The EVR also goes somewhere - the terminus, Wirksworth, is a charming little town well worth a visit (maybe on market day). I've used the EVR a couple of times just to get to Wirksworth.

The KWVR goes to Haworth of course. Twice I've used it mainly to get there. And I think the scenery along this line is pretty amazing in parts.

There are several other examples such as NYMR Whitby

 

[YorkshireBear]

Recently I've been paying more attention to the various places along the line on heritage railways.

There are quite a few which "go somewhere" (along with many that don't of course).

The SVR "goes somewhere", in fact there are a number of attractive towns along the route including the terminus, Brignorth of course, and places like Bewdley which are well worth a visit,. The scenery along the line is pretty good. Also there are some riverside walks between stations.

I started going to the SVR very much for the heritage experience but recently I've been also using it as a pleasant extension to the national rail network.

The EVR also goes somewhere - the terminus, Wirksworth, is a charming little town well worth a visit (maybe on market day). I've used the EVR a couple of times just to get to Wirksworth.

The KWVR goes to Haworth of course. Twice I've used it mainly to get there. And I think the scenery along this line is pretty amazing in parts.

There are several other examples such as NYMR Whitby

Agreed. Railways that go somewhere will attract more people as part of the day out.

A large part of why I visit many. Haworth brings in a lot of non railway folk to the KWVR and is a big help especially as used as an extension of national network to get there.

 

[nanstallon]

I recently visited the railway on holiday and from what I could tell, it was more tourists than enthusiasts. Seemed to benefit from coach parties too.

That is where the money is. People like me want to relive our own memories of the 1960s and pre-Beeching. But people like me are unlikely to make anybody fat!

 

[Trainlog]

That may be true for the very small proportion of passengers who are enthusiasts. But most passengers aren't railway let alone narrow-gauge enthusiasts. The Ffestiniog has put in a lot of publicity effort specifically targeted at making itself one of the "must see" tourist attractions in the area.

The Ffestiniog railway is kind of in the 'sweet spot' in terms of Geographic location and its place as an important narrow gauge railway. Its location in Snowdonia National Park helps, as we know Snowdon is the tallest mountain in Wales and one of the UK's '3 peaks', so it is a clear tourist attraction. This probably means the Ffestiniog railway is the day after trip for those on holiday within that region.

However, whilst the enthusiast spot isn't the strongest market for that railway, its importance in narrow gauge railway history and relevance has made it a return to attraction despite the fact Rover tickets arent exactly available there currently?

A model railway that is built from off-the-shelf products is more likely to inspire the novice to take up the hobby, as that is how most model railway enthusiasts start - especially the junior ones. They then hopefully progress through kit-building and kit-bashing to scratch building. Whereas a model railway that looks like weeks have been spent handcrafting every item may inspire an existing modeller to do better, it is unlikely to make a complete novice think "I could do that".

And regardless of how professionally and realistically it has been built, any model railway at a heritage line should at least include one "Thomas"-faced train to attract the attention of the youngsters.

I still think it needs to be more of a balance. For sure, that will be more likely to inspire more people to get into the hobby with things such as Metcalfe buildings and Hornby railroad equipment, however, if well done a nicely done layout will be just as inspiring and memorable to those that have seen it. That North Norfolk layout was one I saw 3 years ago and I have yet to return to that line, but that layout has stuck with me.

Same could go for the majority of the ones at Pecorama, The O gauge GWR one there and the Spanish layout are the ones that stuck out to me for their execution in terms of design and work done on them.

The bits I do agree with you on are

1.) The 'Thomas face' locos will definitely provide entertainment value on the layout
2.) The Kit bashing element. Instead of Metcalfe, I would like to see more Wills/Ratio kits turn up on these layouts and see what could be done in terms of kitbashing them and what cameos could be inserted onto these layouts from these buildings.

Additionally, I want to mention that these layouts need to be running and have better maintenance. A dead layout is worse than one that looks cheap/tacky with at least something running on it.

I agree with all your comments about the RVR - except that, all that was only true until a few years ago. Now, the economic climate is the thing. Railways that have made expensive extensions to join a main line are finding it hard at the moment to get enough new customers by that route, except on gala days. Also bear in mid that if 20 people come off a Network Rail train to join a heritage one at the junction, maybe 10 or fewer of those people may be new customers; the other 10 being people who would have come by car, or bus or taxi, because they are enthusiasts. Bluebell for example used to be accessible for those without cars - a slow bus or quick taxi from Haywards Heath. Enthusiasts would indeed do that. (Also on gala days such heritage lines frequently arranged special bus services from the nearest railhead).

Much of the pressure for building a mainline connection came (and still comes) not from economics, but from the preservationists' desire to have a longer, more important-seeming operation.

Robertsbridge does indeed have the advantage that the heritage trains will be very visible and intriguing. On the other hand its junction station is further from the London market than some others (like those at Bluebell, Watercress and the EOR). Will enough London-based casual visitors, on their way to a day out in Hastings, be sufficiently intrigued to pay out for a second trip to Robertsbridge on another day? Most won’t have enough spare time to break their journey on a whim; and if they broke their return journey the same day, they’d be disappointed as the RVR / KESR trains would by then have stopped for the day. Which in turn would be off-putting in the extreme.

The Rother Valley Railway/KESR bit at Robertsbridge is a hard one to judge in terms of its potential, especially with the economic backdrop at the moment. However, I do agree and admit that at first it will be used by predominantly enthusiasts and especially at galas. Enthusiasts are the ones tracking the progress of the station/extension, and suffice to say that the station was well patronised at the KESR 50 gala last year from those enthusiasts so that is encouraging on that front.

I appreciate that Robertsbridge is very far out in comparison to say the Bluebell, EOR, or the Watercress; however, the exposure helps in terms of that neutral audience that will go past the station on those mainline trains. Perhaps they might never buy a ticket on the KESR; however, the line acts in a way as an advert for other heritage railways that are closer to London to go and visit instead, such as the mentioned 3.

If seeing a steam train and a concept of a heritage railway through the window of the mainline train is enough to inspire people to seek out these railways for the 'vintage aesthetic' the rareity of seeing a steam locomotive that isn't in a film, then the junction has contributed to the industry massively. Whilst we enthusiasts secretly want a calm day on a heritage railway, a coach compartment to ourselves, to view the locomotives without crowds, we need more neutral audiences to seek out heritage railways and challenge the negative stereotypes surrounding the hobby and give it the 'Warhammer treatment' so there is fewer survival fund appeals.

(Warhammer treatment: Seen as really geeky/nerdy about 15 years ago, however, is now more popular than ever as people have tried it out and played in matches and the reputation has gotten better).

I want to end this small essay reply with some hope, as of current the negative stereotypes are slowly being eroded and through examples seen in these two recent articles, it's nice to see how non enthusiasts are viewing these lines in a positive light and not dismissing it over the stereotypes surrounding heritage railways.

Coves, caves and Agatha Christie – a car-free tour along the English Riviera in Devon

Mystery, history, unbeatable views and delicious local produce await in this idyllic corner of south-west England, which can be explored by foot, ferry, steam train and bus

www.theguardian.com

How to spend a £10 day on the luxury Pullman train

It’s not every day you get to step on board one of the most famous and luxurious trains in the world. But, this summer, you can for just £10.

metro.co.uk

 

[WAB]

I grew up primarily visiting the RHDR and Ff&WHR. Imagine my horror when I discovered that there were heritage railways with poor catering, bog standard carriages and uninteresting scenery!

 

[bramling]

The Ffestiniog railway is kind of in the 'sweet spot' in terms of Geographic location and its place as an important narrow gauge railway. Its location in Snowdonia National Park helps, as we know Snowdon is the tallest mountain in Wales and one of the UK's '3 peaks', so it is a clear tourist attraction. This probably means the Ffestiniog railway is the day after trip for those on holiday within that region.

However, whilst the enthusiast spot isn't the strongest market for that railway, its importance in narrow gauge railway history and relevance has made it a return to attraction despite the fact Rover tickets arent exactly available there currently?


I still think it needs to be more of a balance. For sure, that will be more likely to inspire more people to get into the hobby with things such as Metcalfe buildings and Hornby railroad equipment, however, if well done a nicely done layout will be just as inspiring and memorable to those that have seen it. That North Norfolk layout was one I saw 3 years ago and I have yet to return to that line, but that layout has stuck with me.

Same could go for the majority of the ones at Pecorama, The O gauge GWR one there and the Spanish layout are the ones that stuck out to me for their execution in terms of design and work done on them.

The bits I do agree with you on are

1.) The 'Thomas face' locos will definitely provide entertainment value on the layout
2.) The Kit bashing element. Instead of Metcalfe, I would like to see more Wills/Ratio kits turn up on these layouts and see what could be done in terms of kitbashing them and what cameos could be inserted onto these layouts from these buildings.

Additionally, I want to mention that these layouts need to be running and have better maintenance. A dead layout is worse than one that looks cheap/tacky with at least something running on it.


The Rother Valley Railway/KESR bit at Robertsbridge is a hard one to judge in terms of its potential, especially with the economic backdrop at the moment. However, I do agree and admit that at first it will be used by predominantly enthusiasts and especially at galas. Enthusiasts are the ones tracking the progress of the station/extension, and suffice to say that the station was well patronised at the KESR 50 gala last year from those enthusiasts so that is encouraging on that front.

I appreciate that Robertsbridge is very far out in comparison to say the Bluebell, EOR, or the Watercress; however, the exposure helps in terms of that neutral audience that will go past the station on those mainline trains. Perhaps they might never buy a ticket on the KESR; however, the line acts in a way as an advert for other heritage railways that are closer to London to go and visit instead, such as the mentioned 3.

If seeing a steam train and a concept of a heritage railway through the window of the mainline train is enough to inspire people to seek out these railways for the 'vintage aesthetic' the rareity of seeing a steam locomotive that isn't in a film, then the junction has contributed to the industry massively. Whilst we enthusiasts secretly want a calm day on a heritage railway, a coach compartment to ourselves, to view the locomotives without crowds, we need more neutral audiences to seek out heritage railways and challenge the negative stereotypes surrounding the hobby and give it the 'Warhammer treatment' so there is fewer survival fund appeals.

(Warhammer treatment: Seen as really geeky/nerdy about 15 years ago, however, is now more popular than ever as people have tried it out and played in matches and the reputation has gotten better).

I want to end this small essay reply with some hope, as of current the negative stereotypes are slowly being eroded and through examples seen in these two recent articles, it's nice to see how non enthusiasts are viewing these lines in a positive light and not dismissing it over the stereotypes surrounding heritage railways.

Coves, caves and Agatha Christie – a car-free tour along the English Riviera in Devon

Mystery, history, unbeatable views and delicious local produce await in this idyllic corner of south-west England, which can be explored by foot, ferry, steam train and bus

www.theguardian.com

How to spend a £10 day on the luxury Pullman train

It’s not every day you get to step on board one of the most famous and luxurious trains in the world. But, this summer, you can for just £10.

metro.co.uk

Ffestiniog has some level of advantage in that there isn’t actually *that* much for tourists in the area to do. If my experience having stayed in Porthmadog on a good few occasions is anything to go by, from overhearing conversations in the breakfast rooms, the “bucket list” attractions are Snowdon Mountain Railway (less so climbing the mountain itself, though plenty do if physically capable), Ffestiniog Railway, Portmerion, and there’s also a handful of castles such as Caernarfon, Harlech and Criccieth. Barmouth is a day out but again there isn’t actually a massive amount there. For anything else you’re getting into the territory of having to drive further.

Meanwhile Llandudno is “couch tour central” and is within reasonable reach of both the FR and WHR.

 

[Falcon1200]

There are quite a few which "go somewhere" (along with many that don't of course).

The Bo'ness & Kinneil Railway doesn't go anywhere, and never will! However it does seem reasonably successful, helped surely by being the only steam railway in Central Scotland, and hosting the Museum of Scottish Railways.

 

[Belperpete]

The accounts on Companies House for the total Group show a surplus of £298,832 for the 2023 FY, backed by a bulletproof balance sheet with £4.8m of fixed assets including £780,000 of investments and a further £1m of cash, and there is no debt.
The £428K of donations includes £76K of memberships, so retains those, zero the donations entirely and the KWVR is losing £54K a year. it would take 19 years at that rate just to burn though its cash balance.
That is a very very heathy looking business.

The figures I obtained were from the charity commission pages. Looking at the accounts on Companies House is a bit more involved. The latest accounts are for 2023 (posted in Nov 2024), so don't show the full effects of the price increases in coal and wage increases.

The Operating Company, K&WV Light Rly Ltd, posted an operating loss of £657K for 2023, slightly up from £573k in 2022. This appears to be mainly covered by grants from the supporting charities.

The consolidated accounts for the K&WVR Preservation Society Ltd, the charity that controls the Operating Co, show a net surplus of £299k in 2023, up from £127k in 2022. This was mainly achieved by a substantial increase in Donations and Legacies: £428k in 2023, almost double that of £224k in 2022. Those praising the K&WVR model of catering may be interested to know that the accounts appear to show that catering made a loss.

The problem with donations and legacies is that the amount can be very variable, as shown by it almost doubling in one year. What can go up can easily come down. In the highly unlikely event that donations and legacies totally dried up, then the charity would have made a significant loss. However, they hold cash and realisable investments of £1.2m, so even in this highly unlikely scenario, as you say, they could weather it for a number of years. In practice, as I posted previously, I suspect that in the near future, legacy income is likely to go up as elderly supporters die off. So for the immediate future, the K&WVR does look reasonably healthy.

The balance sheet of 4+ millions of fixed assets that you quote is largely irrelevant to the line's financial health. It is mainly the notional value of how much the line and its stock and buildings is worth. As the Bluebell's chairman notes in their newsletter, such fixed assets would only be realisable by selling them off, or taking a loan out on them.

How sustainable it is for a preserved railway to survive on donations and legacies in the long term is debateable. Personally, I am prepared to donate for capital projects, such as a new building or repairing a loco or coach. What I am not prepared for is my money to be used to directly subsidise other people's cups of tea and train tickets.

 

[yoyothehobo]

I would say the first instance to look at for how viable the ongoing existence of a heritage railway is, is to look at the state of the permanent way and how much risk there is to that from an operational stand point.

I would say the KWVR is very much a goldilocks railway:

Rail connected
Station connected to mainline
Near to population centre
Good array of motive power
Some interest in the running of trains (a big hill to blast up)
A tourist draw in the middle of the line
Well maintained and appear to be on top of infrastructure (see bridge replacement)
Events that can draw in people who are not rail buffs (diesel and ale) and the railway children show
A line that is a reasonable length to be entertaining without being too long
I cant comment on the current fares, however when i was a student several of my friends used it for a day out to Haworth.

Oh and another thing, I have seen advertising for the KWVR, mostly around the Northern network.

 

[NER1621]

I would say the first instance to look at for how viable the ongoing existence of a heritage railway is, is to look at the state of the permanent way and how much risk there is to that from an operational stand point.

I would say the KWVR is very much a goldilocks railway:

Rail connected
Station connected to mainline
Near to population centre
Good array of motive power
Some interest in the running of trains (a big hill to blast up)
A tourist draw in the middle of the line
Well maintained and appear to be on top of infrastructure (see bridge replacement)
Events that can draw in people who are not rail buffs (diesel and ale) and the railway children show
A line that is a reasonable length to be entertaining without being too long
I cant comment on the current fares, however when i was a student several of my friends used it for a day out to Haworth.

Oh and another thing, I have seen advertising for the KWVR, mostly around the Northern network.

And I would add to your list - has preserved the complete branch line from junction to terminus. So it is both authentic and "satisfying" as a heritage experience, and the society does not have the temptation to waste money on ambitious extensions to placate a vocifereous enthusiast minority.