How Viable are Preserved Railways?

[duffield]

Well, the question is really if they'd be making more of a loss overall if they cut catering.

...
I also wasn’t talking about stopping it: I was talking about cutting your catering coat to suit your cloth.

So we're looking at things like what level of catering makes the most financial sense, since you've got various types such as:

1. Full sit down meals
2. Hot food to eat in or take out such as bacon rolls
3. Cold food but including perishables such as sandwiches
4. Non-perishables only such as confectionery, fizzy drinks, crisps, biscuits etc. plus tea and coffee.

So I guess we're saying some level of catering is probably necessary, but asking questions like whether moving from (say) level 2 to 3, or 3 to 4 would drive enough people away to negate the savings from dropping down a level, and that seems to me to be a more difficult question to answer than whether no catering at all is likely to end badly.
Level 4 does have the great attraction of presumably not needing food hygiene training or a prep area, plus nearly zero waste; I'd wonder how many people who would have made a return visit would not do so due to the lack of sandwiches?

Then, particularly for railways with more stations, there's the question of how many catering outlets and where to put them; for example the cafe at Leicester North on the GCR seems to be of dubious value (I believe it's closed and later re-opened, not sure of its current status), given it's the least attractive station on the line and basically people mostly arrive, watch the loco run round, and depart again 15 minutes later. There is catering at all the other three much more attractive genuine heritage stations plus more to see and do.

 

[Class73Electro]

In terms of catering, was looking for a sandwich/lunch at the Spa Valley only to be told they don't have any food, just something on one of the trains, and ended up having to visit the supermarket next door.

 

[duffield]

In terms of catering, was looking for a sandwich/lunch at the Spa Valley only to be told they don't have any food, just something on one of the trains, and ended up having to visit the supermarket next door.

Maybe they tried in the past but found too many people were preferring Sainsbury's range and prices so they gave up? It's bound to be difficult with it being right next door.

 

[frankmoh]

I was at the Spa Valley Railway today. I'd say there was about 75-100 people per train for the 2 return journeys I made, so roughly 500+ people for the whole day. Of course today was not a special event so I'm sure there are busier times of year to go.

Surprisingly barely anyone alighted to the train via the main line connection at Eridge, perhaps the 1 tph has something to do with it.

In terms of catering, was looking for a sandwich/lunch at the Spa Valley only to be told they don't have any food, just something on one of the trains, and ended up having to visit the supermarket next door.

Given that Tunbridge Wells West is right next to a Lidl and Sainsburys, it's probably for the better so they can save money. Makes me wonder what happened to that static buffet car out front?

 

[sh24]

UK households are progressively saving more. A lot of people have seen pay increase in the last few years. With inflation abating they could be spending…but instead they are saving.

Households’ finances and saving, UK - Office for National Statistics

 

[STINT47]

I think people are saving money due to employment and pension uncertainty.

I've seen above inflation pay rises over the last two years but feel nervous about the economy and job security.

I also have the fear of what income I'll get at retirement. There is a lot of talk of pensions being unaffordable and future generation's being worse off. You also hear of other help like free bus passes having to go at some point

It's therefore best for me at least to save my extra pay as I fear the future is not looking good.

 

[Trainlog]

Moving to another example, the RVR extension to Robertsbridge. Huge tech-y engineering - of course necessary for things like bridges, and at road level crossings and their signalling. But for track? What they are doing involves bulldozing a roadway all along the route, destroying trees and lineside vegetation - and surely pissing off the objecting locals to an even greater extent! Of course it also destroys the ad-hoc charm of the Col Stephens railway backwater which this line was before it closed. When finished it will look just like Network Rail - or be even more manicured than that.

Is all this really necessary and best practice? Or are all those in charge retired engineers, just doing what they are familiar with and what comes naturally to ex-employees of the big railway? Surely it would have been practicable to extend (on plain line at least) at lower cost and in a less mechanised way, providing lighter trackwork more attuned to the past, and to a slow trundling present-day ride to enjoy the scenery? That approach could also have kept more volunteers happy for longer in doing the work, too.

Of course this extension was long desired; and got the go-ahead (and financial support) just before the recent economic downturn and the various perils now evident in the world. But I fear it will end up as just a millstone of cost for the revived railway, once the inital thrill of opening has passed. If it was proposed now it would have been kicked into touch.

Robertsbridge has plenty of potential in terms of railway expansion. A mainline connection on a popular mainline (Hastings mainline), and the village itself is a decent destination. The KESR will be a railway from somewhere to somewhere once Robertsbridge is completed.

Hastings is a popular tourist attraction, and it's fair to say during the summer those trains get fairly busy from Londoners and people from Tonbridge. Robertsbridge junction is quite exposed from Robertsbridge station and more importantly, those Hastings line trains, and if they have the announcement.

'This is Robertsbridge, alight here for the Kent and East Sussex railway. It would easily turn heads, especially if a steam loco is in the platform at RBJ station.

Its certainly one way to get the attention of neutral audiences. I wish the Chinnor line would ask Chiltern to do the same at Princes Risborough.

A model railway would make an interesting diversion for young and old alike.

I don't wish for this to sound harsh when I say this, but I would like to see more professional layout builds at heritage railways. The one at Holt on the North Norfolk railway feels like a work of art and is captivating for its presentation. I don't want to see layouts that look cheap or tacky with too many Metcalfe buildings or Hornby railroad pieces, if it can be avoided on these layouts.

A well done model railway layout, in a heritage should be used as a way to tell the story of Britains railway history and to provide entertainment. If the model railway fulfills these points, it could inspire people to take up the hobby or learn further about Britain's railway heritage.

But surely a conversion exercise like that would be hugely expensive, not just for all the infrastructure works but for the wholesale replacement of all locomotives and stock?

To be fair this would have to be a very last resort option. It is very expensive; however, could it make the line stand out more against the standard gauge railways in areas that are saturated with competition? I will grant you that it hasn't been undertaken on an already preserved standard gauge line before.

Small-scale standard-gauge railways can work, provided they are executed correctly. Take a look at the Mid Suffolk light railway, it really plays into the theme of the line as a light railway by using predominantly four-wheeled pre-grouping coaches and small steam locos, typically industrial locos. In a way its own charm and helps it stand out from the typical Mk1 predominant standard gauge railway.

Again I'm not so sure. The Severn Valley is in reach of the West Midlands, the Bluebell is in London's commuter belt. Whereas the Ffestiniog is in the back end of beyond and is doing much better.

Sure the Bluebell is near in proximity to areas like London, however, the mainline link is at the end of a mainline to a town (East Grinstead) that compared to other towns or cities in Sussex such as Hastings, Eastbourne, Lewes, or Brighton isn't exactly a priority location for tourists to visit. In other words, out of the way and out of mind still for it to be as noticeable as people think on first glance of a map.

The Bluebell does appear on the Network Southeast map, however, any heritage railway showing up there hardly stands out on the map. it is a black line with the heritage railway name in red text. I always think that they should add a small logo/icon of a steam locomotive to help the lines stand out better.

I mean, the Epping Ongar railway literally runs to the edge of Zone 6. In theory, it should be a very busy railway, however, there is nothing to tell you that the line exists to Londoners/neutral audiences. Proximity helps but knowledge/ good advertising of a lines existence helps even more.

The argument could apply to the Severn valley and Birmingham, then again its harder to defend as Tyseley is in the city itself, along with the occasional Vintage trains tour.

The Ffestiniog is an interesting case. It's got a dedicated enthusiast of its own, being narrow gauge fans, and is more or less a 'place of pilgrimage' owing to its fame and contributions to narrow gauge railways.

 

[Chester1]

Speaking as a teacher, I can confirm that in real terms we are no better off than a few years ago.

Put it this way. 5 years ago I was working part time and my situation at the end of each month was similar if not slightly better than it is now despite the fact I am working full time and my salary is much higher than it was.

For example, we've just been given a pay increase of 2% for this upcoming year. Everything else in our lives has gone up by more than that.

I guess housing situation makes a big difference. I reckon my pay has gone up 6% above CPI over last 5 pay years and for me that's nothing to shout about but is an increase. I suspect complainers at work are a mixture of people renting and people who lack impulse control so will always struggle. It is a bit hard to take the latter group seriously on money.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Aug 2025 ==

I think people are saving money due to employment and pension uncertainty.

I've seen above inflation pay rises over the last two years but feel nervous about the economy and job security.

I also have the fear of what income I'll get at retirement. There is a lot of talk of pensions being unaffordable and future generation's being worse off. You also hear of other help like free bus passes having to go at some point

It's therefore best for me at least to save my extra pay as I fear the future is not looking good.

I think I have a similar attitude. I am probably less keen to spend money but my pay is rising faster than inflation.

 

[Krokodil]

On the subject of catering, the provision of tea is non-negotiable if we're dragging my mother along. I doubt that my family is unusual in that.

 

[Belperpete]

The Ffestiniog is an interesting case. It's got a dedicated enthusiast of its own, being narrow gauge fans, and is more or less a 'place of pilgrimage' owing to its fame and contributions to narrow gauge railways.

That may be true for the very small proportion of passengers who are enthusiasts. But most passengers aren't railway let alone narrow-gauge enthusiasts. The Ffestiniog has put in a lot of publicity effort specifically targeted at making itself one of the "must see" tourist attractions in the area.

 

[Titfield]

The Ffestiniog is talismanic in much the same way as Flying Scotsman is and arguably Concorde was. Such icons do not conform to normal economic rules.

 

[Belperpete]

I don't wish for this to sound harsh when I say this, but I would like to see more professional layout builds at heritage railways. The one at Holt on the North Norfolk railway feels like a work of art and is captivating for its presentation. I don't want to see layouts that look cheap or tacky with too many Metcalfe buildings or Hornby railroad pieces, if it can be avoided on these layouts.

A well done model railway layout, in a heritage should be used as a way to tell the story of Britains railway history and to provide entertainment. If the model railway fulfills these points, it could inspire people to take up the hobby or learn further about Britain's railway heritage.

A model railway that is built from off-the-shelf products is more likely to inspire the novice to take up the hobby, as that is how most model railway enthusiasts start - especially the junior ones. They then hopefully progress through kit-building and kit-bashing to scratch building. Whereas a model railway that looks like weeks have been spent handcrafting every item may inspire an existing modeller to do better, it is unlikely to make a complete novice think "I could do that".

And regardless of how professionally and realistically it has been built, any model railway at a heritage line should at least include one "Thomas"-faced train to attract the attention of the youngsters.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Aug 2025 ==

The Ffestiniog is talismanic in much the same way as Flying Scotsman is and arguably Concorde was. Such icons do not conform to normal economic rules.

Whereas most members of the general public could tell you what Flying Scotsman and Concorde are, I really doubt that many would know anything about the Ffestiniog Railway. Certainly my family knew nothing about it until we went on holiday to North Wales.

 

[UP13]

That may be true for the very small proportion of passengers who are enthusiasts. But most passengers aren't railway let alone narrow-gauge enthusiasts. The Ffestiniog has put in a lot of publicity effort specifically targeted at making itself one of the "must see" tourist attractions in the area.

I recently visited the railway on holiday and from what I could tell, it was more tourists than enthusiasts. Seemed to benefit from coach parties too.

 

[158760]

From my experience on a standard running day, most passengers on preserved railways are families or groups going for a day out. You still have some enthusiasts, but often not very many.

 

[Uncle Buck]

But a significant proportion of the market (families particularly) expect catering, so if there isn't any they probably won't return. It then risks becoming a downward spiral as the more costs are cut, the fewer visitors are attracted. Catering should be seen as part of the overall offer rather than a profit centre in its own right. Even if it doesn't make a profit on its own, it may lead to higher ticket receipts.

There is absolutely no excuse for running a loss-making catering business at a heritage attraction. You have a) a captive market and b) no rent (because you already own the premises). I wouldn’t be surprised if many stately homes/museums/ National Trust properties make more money from catering than they do from admission. It should be a licence to print money, while a gift shop is also a useful money-spinner.

I guess housing situation makes a big difference. I reckon my pay has gone up 6% above CPI over last 5 pay years and for me that's nothing to shout about but is an increase. I suspect complainers at work are a mixture of people renting and people who lack impulse control so will always struggle. It is a bit hard to take the latter group seriously on money.

I know many people are struggling, but There are restaurants in Glasgow city centre with queues round the block full of people moaning about the cost of living crisis…

 

[simonw]

The Ffestiniog is talismanic in much the same way as Flying Scotsman is and arguably Concorde was. Such icons do not conform to normal economic rules.

Outside of enthusiasts and people who regularly holiday in North wales, Few people will have heard of the ffestiniog, a larger number of people will have heard of Flying Scotsman, but not necessarily be able to identify it even if "great granddad" used to drive it. As to concorde, it is slipping into history and Few people make a special journey to see a preserved example.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2025 ==

8 pages in and as someone else said up thread a lot of anecdotes but few facts.

 

[MP33]

For many years, the Concorde prototype has been at Yeoviltown. It is exactly the same as the others, except that inside there is test equipment and control desks. With a bank of six airline seats, which were used to take VIP's on flights. There are photos of a young King Charles, being given a flight.

There has never appeared to be much interest in it.

 

[SuspectUsual]

A couple of observations.

Catering, when done well, can be a significant income stream. The Talyllyn get this spot on at Wharf and I remember reading that both income and margin have grown in recent years. Unfortunately I don’t keep back issues of Talyllyn News so can’t find the numbers, and the information in the accounts shows catering income but doesn’t split out their costs.

The other thing I worry about for preserved railways is whether the tapering off of the supply of volunteers will - with a lag of course - lead to a reduction in income from legacies. Obviously by their very nature these can be a “lumpy” income stream so a year to year comparison might not yield much insight, but it feels logical to me that this could happen

 

[bramling]

Outside of enthusiasts and people who regularly holiday in North wales, Few people will have heard of the ffestiniog, a larger number of people will have heard of Flying Scotsman, but not necessarily be able to identify it even if "great granddad" used to drive it. As to concorde, it is slipping into history and Few people make a special journey to see a preserved example.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2025 ==

8 pages in and as someone else said up thread a lot of anecdotes but few facts.

On the latter point, this may well be because every railway has their own circumstances and challenges. The one common factor seems to be that costs have risen across the board, and may well continue to do so.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

There is absolutely no excuse for running a loss-making catering business at a heritage attraction. You have a) a captive market and b) no rent (because you already own the premises). I wouldn’t be surprised if many stately homes/museums/ National Trust properties make more money from catering than they do from admission. It should be a licence to print money, while a gift shop is also a useful money-spinner.

Do you actually have any experience of catering at charity-owned or run visitor attractions?

The big cost is staffing. This is one of the areas where it's difficult to get volunteers, so paid staff are usually necessary. And in order to deliver a consistent offer, you need the staff even if it's pissing down and there are hardly any visitors that day.

 

[driverd]

Do you actually have any experience of catering at charity-owned or run visitor attractions?

The big cost is staffing. This is one of the areas where it's difficult to get volunteers, so paid staff are usually necessary. And in order to deliver a consistent offer, you need the staff even if it's pissing down and there are hardly any visitors that day.

I think this is, in part, endemic of the problem with many preserved railways ancillary businesses. The market isnt just visitors, its locals or passing trade too. For example, a café is well placed to pitch to the local population and encourage their use of the facilities even when the railway isn't running. They often have gorgeous buildings to house the café, with interesting things to look at, period features and quite often pleasant flowerbeds. The visitors should be seen as the bonus custom, rather than the core customers.

The issue, I find, is most preserved railways sell food that may well have been tasty in 1950, but in 2025 I wouldn't feed to the dog. Its no exaggeration to say the smell coming from the cafés at some PRs was enough to turn my stomach, never mind the rancid, poor quality foodstuff creating the smell.

Its one area that I find consistently lacking across near enough every PR, and perhaps one where outsourcing to local contemporary supplies, with contractual requirements around opening times/railway fitting decor may well work as a far better model.

 

[Dave W]

How many heritage railways have TikTok and Instagram accounts being updated daily with innovative content? To my mind, a load of complete rubbish, but something any clothing brand, more-than-mid-market restaurant or cafe, or day trip destination like a stately home simply needs to do to as a matter of course nowadays.

I think this was lost in the noise of the thread but is an excellent point. I "volunteer" with my local non-league football side doing some of their social media* and the amount of interest it generates from the younger crowd is phenomenal. And by social media I don't mean twitter (which is my leisurely, grey-haired lane) but TikTok and Insta, and to an extent Snapchat. A younger bod than I looks after those so I can sit in my shed and do the graphics

I disagree that there's no interest in the hobby from the younger generations - there's quite a chunk of social media regarding railway enthusiasts, and there's been a recent explosion in memes where the premise is you're talking about something very cool, and the big reveal is that's trains and modelling (well, we all think that!) - our man Francis has done some good too, whatever you think of him. I wouldn't write off interest just yet. But to return to @Uncle Buck how many lines have got a TikTok? How many are trying to build interest? It's not just "here is a steam train", it's making it interesting, making it fun, and giving an insight into a world perhaps our "youth" might not see.

* - an additional point here is timescales. Okay I'm a bit older and a bit more savvy work wise, but in that example within a year of volunteering I held the keys to the club's social media accounts. The nature of railways is obviously different, but how quickly could a young volunteer move through the ranks like that?

To add my own anecdotes to the list, as a consumer my attitudes have shifted having recently becoming a parent. I did the EOR's santa special last year with my brother and his family. It was a lovely day out for them, especially once the light went and the train was all lit up. But the cafe took ages, the shop was scant and it felt like we were a commodity to be shifted around the railway (I suppose we were!) - can't argue with the bit with Santa on the train though. He even let me sit on his knee which, with me at 36 and not particularly athletic, was brave of him! To my shame, I couldn't even tell you what was on the front/back! (A Black 5 and a 47, maybe?) - but that was irrelevant - we could have been anywhere for the nicer parts of the experience.

Before that my last "big" heritage railway experience was a comp ticket on the Bluebell for their ale festival, which my friend performed at. I thought that was extremely well run and it did feel as if volunteers were much more comfortable (a different clientele I fancy!) - in contrast to my day on the EOR, I wrote down every loco I saw and rode with, and - even with a progressively fuzzier head! - leaned into the railway side a lot more.

(In between I did have a lovely day out at Mangapps for my first "Father's Day" - we were 3 of about 10 people there, and we got a full experience from the volunteers which was really nice and I felt very much like a VIP! But I doubt they made much money that day...)

 

[Mike Machin]

The struggles of the heritage railways is exactly the same as the whole of the leisure/hospitality industry.

Two, absolutely crucial changes have occurred within society. One, people generally have less disposable income for traditional leisure activities. This is partly as a result of some people's income not keeping pace with the cost of living, meaning that discretionary spending has to be looked at carefully.

The second is a broader societal change. People tend to go out less, they prefer to spend their disposable income at home with family and friends and the money is spent on new home entertainment systems, subscriptions to multiple media accounts for streaming and more home entertaining, often availing themselves of home food delivery services.

The result is the traditional outlets for leisure spending have all suffered. Many pubs are not now open on quiet days, Mondays/Tuesdays for example, and many close early around or 8pm or 9pm. Cinemas are also having a quiet time, many people have invested in lovely home entertainment systems and, having invested in these, they prefer to stream the latest movies and invite friends and family around to watch, often with a Deliveroo. Many youngsters don't go out 'clubbing' as much as they used to. They prefer to hang-out with their friends somewhere quiet where they can be permanently online with their social groups.

All leisure activities have been affected, that's why many pubs/restaurants/clubs/music venues have closed or have reduced opening hours. The heritage railways are caught-up in the un enviable position of being caught with infrastructure and commitments that cannot be fully covered by the likely available business.

There will most definitely be a place for heritage rail within the market, one only has to look at the numbers of people who attended the Greatest Gathering, or who turn-out to see Flying Scotsman or attend Thomas events. But, I think it's very, very unlikely that we shall return to the halcyon days of say twenty years ago when it seemed that the only way is up, with new projects, line extensions etc - there simply won't ever be enough potential customers to support this and there will definitely need to be fewer railways and a consolidation of resources to meet the realities of not just the new hard realities of life, but also the sea-change cultural shift in lifestyles.

 

[Belperpete]

The other thing I worry about for preserved railways is whether the tapering off of the supply of volunteers will - with a lag of course - lead to a reduction in income from legacies. Obviously by their very nature these can be a “lumpy” income stream so a year to year comparison might not yield much insight, but it feels logical to me that this could happen

From what I have seen of the volunteer population of most preserved railways, the next decade or two is probably going to be a bumper time for legacies.

For many of the longer established railways, I think they are now seeing people who volunteered when they were young, but then gave up when family and work commitments took up all their time, are now returning as they get more free time again.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2025 ==

The issue, I find, is most preserved railways sell food that may well have been tasty in 1950, but in 2025 I wouldn't feed to the dog. Its no exaggeration to say the smell coming from the cafés at some PRs was enough to turn my stomach, never mind the rancid, poor quality foodstuff creating the smell.

Can you give some examples of railways with such poor catering?

 

[STINT47]

For many of the longer established railways, I think they are now seeing people who volunteered when they were young, but then gave up when family and work commitments took up all their time, are now returning as they get more free time again.

In the twenty years that I have been volunteering this has always been the case.

We get plenty in their late teens and twenties. We then get plenty from fifty onwards but the twenty or so years bit in the middle sees a shortage as people are having families and pursuing careers etc.

 

[xotGD]

a café is well placed to pitch to the local population and encourage their use of the facilities

Not when there is a sign demanding that you buy a platform ticket in order to reach the cafe. That's going to deter folk who just want a cup of tea.

 

[Class 466]

I'd say there was about 75-100 people per train for the 2 return journeys I made, so roughly 500+ people for the whole day.

Given a number of people take more than one return trip - it was probably less than 500+.

 

[sh24]

Catering is a hard place to make money. Ask anyone in the hospitality trade. Staff and power costs a big issue.

 

[Peter Wilde]

Indeed, and anyway, surely is not what most people, or us on here at least, would call a preserved railway - It is, and always has been, a commercial operation!

Agreed entirely. SMR is so untypical as to be almost irrelevant to this debate. Most of its customers just want to get to the top of Snowdon/Yr Widdfa (phew, remembered in time, no fire risk to the cottage now!). They are willing to pay quite a lot to avoid the long, hard footslog up the ascending path from Llanberis. Not at all like a preserved railway giving rides through attractive but unexceptional countryside.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2025 ==

Robertsbridge has plenty of potential in terms of railway expansion. A mainline connection on a popular mainline (Hastings mainline), and the village itself is a decent destination. The KESR will be a railway from somewhere to somewhere once Robertsbridge is completed.

Hastings is a popular tourist attraction, and it's fair to say during the summer those trains get fairly busy from Londoners and people from Tonbridge. Robertsbridge junction is quite exposed from Robertsbridge station and more importantly, those Hastings line trains, and if they have the announcement.

'This is Robertsbridge, alight here for the Kent and East Sussex railway. It would easily turn heads, especially if a steam loco is in the platform at RBJ station.

Its certainly one way to get the attention of neutral audiences. I wish the Chinnor line would ask Chiltern to do the same at Princes Risborough.

I don't wish for this to sound harsh when I say this, but I would like to see more professional layout builds at heritage railways. The one at Holt on the North Norfolk railway feels like a work of art and is captivating for its presentation. I don't want to see layouts that look cheap or tacky with too many Metcalfe buildings or Hornby railroad pieces, if it can be avoided on these layouts.

A well done model railway layout, in a heritage should be used as a way to tell the story of Britains railway history and to provide entertainment. If the model railway fulfills these points, it could inspire people to take up the hobby or learn further about Britain's railway heritage.

To be fair this would have to be a very last resort option. It is very expensive; however, could it make the line stand out more against the standard gauge railways in areas that are saturated with competition? I will grant you that it hasn't been undertaken on an already preserved standard gauge line before.

Small-scale standard-gauge railways can work, provided they are executed correctly. Take a look at the Mid Suffolk light railway, it really plays into the theme of the line as a light railway by using predominantly four-wheeled pre-grouping coaches and small steam locos, typically industrial locos. In a way its own charm and helps it stand out from the typical Mk1 predominant standard gauge railway.


Sure the Bluebell is near in proximity to areas like London, however, the mainline link is at the end of a mainline to a town (East Grinstead) that compared to other towns or cities in Sussex such as Hastings, Eastbourne, Lewes, or Brighton isn't exactly a priority location for tourists to visit. In other words, out of the way and out of mind still for it to be as noticeable as people think on first glance of a map.

The Bluebell does appear on the Network Southeast map, however, any heritage railway showing up there hardly stands out on the map. it is a black line with the heritage railway name in red text. I always think that they should add a small logo/icon of a steam locomotive to help the lines stand out better.

I mean, the Epping Ongar railway literally runs to the edge of Zone 6. In theory, it should be a very busy railway, however, there is nothing to tell you that the line exists to Londoners/neutral audiences. Proximity helps but knowledge/ good advertising of a lines existence helps even more.

The argument could apply to the Severn valley and Birmingham, then again its harder to defend as Tyseley is in the city itself, along with the occasional Vintage trains tour.

The Ffestiniog is an interesting case. It's got a dedicated enthusiast of its own, being narrow gauge fans, and is more or less a 'place of pilgrimage' owing to its fame and contributions to narrow gauge railways.

I agree with all your comments about the RVR - except that, all that was only true until a few years ago. Now, the economic climate is the thing. Railways that have made expensive extensions to join a main line are finding it hard at the moment to get enough new customers by that route, except on gala days. Also bear in mid that if 20 people come off a Network Rail train to join a heritage one at the junction, maybe 10 or fewer of those people may be new customers; the other 10 being people who would have come by car, or bus or taxi, because they are enthusiasts. Bluebell for example used to be accessible for those without cars - a slow bus or quick taxi from Haywards Heath. Enthusiasts would indeed do that. (Also on gala days such heritage lines frequently arranged special bus services from the nearest railhead).

Much of the pressure for building a mainline connection came (and still comes) not from economics, but from the preservationists' desire to have a longer, more important-seeming operation.

Robertsbridge does indeed have the advantage that the heritage trains will be very visible and intriguing. On the other hand its junction station is further from the London market than some others (like those at Bluebell, Watercress and the EOR). Will enough London-based casual visitors, on their way to a day out in Hastings, be sufficiently intrigued to pay out for a second trip to Robertsbridge on another day? Most won’t have enough spare time to break their journey on a whim; and if they broke their return journey the same day, they’d be disappointed as the RVR / KESR trains would by then have stopped for the day. Which in turn would be off-putting in the extreme.

 

[jumble]

From what I have seen of the volunteer population of most preserved railways, the next decade or two is probably going to be a bumper time for legacies.

I agree that I also believe that there are many many wealthy people who just love their favourite preserved railway and are happy to give substantial donations and leave substantial legacies to be spent on what ever the railway sees fit which includes subsiding it if it loses money
There is nothing new about loss making railways
We attended the Welshpool and Llanfair gala in 2019 and were told they had lost 50K that year