How Viable are Preserved Railways?

[WAB]

But the railway itself looked in good order and was very well presented.
I wonder if the WHR, with fewer trains, is as economic as the FR though?

The WHR is a classically difficult railway to make economical. Running for 25 miles means you only get one round-trip out of each set of coaches. You also need quite powerful locomotives - i.e., a Beyer-Garratt or an NG15. All the other (cheaper) locos need to be double-headed to run more than six carriages I think.

Especially as the Ffestiniog is operated very economically; remote-operator ETS, no signallers except at Porthmadog and Rhiw Goch passing loop (certain days only), and you can run much denser traffic.

 

[Bertone]

The Pullmans were a £15 supplement on the day for a bacon roll in the morning or a slice of cake/cream tea in the afternoon, with a hot drink to go with. Car 54 was also available static in P2 at Sheffield Park with the same options for £10.

This is probably a very silly question but with Car 54 static in P2, this would seem to somewhat limit the sevice operations.e.g. run round facility.
Oh, just a thought was it is the small bay at the south end?

 

[Siimo]

I went to the model railway event weekend on the Bluebell about a month ago and it was pretty busy with families as well as enthusiasts and those along for the models. In fact some carriages were nearly as full as the mainline trains I'd used to get there! What I did observe which may be relevant to this discussion is that the motive power is often more appealing than the line itself - whilst it's a nice experience to be able to pull down the window and hear the chuffing in front of you, there's not much to see on the line itself besides the same woods and fields you get anywhere else. Swanage Railway is much more scenic as it gives a unique vantage point of Corfe Castle.
I see that a Class 150 repainted in BR Sprinter blue has been donated to the Watercress. Not sure what to make of that, as these are trains still in mainline use and the fan base for 1970-1990s multiple units is rather niche, although surely good for the railway's economy.

 

[158760]

This is probably a very silly question but with Car 54 static in P2, this would seem to somewhat limit the sevice operations.e.g. run round facility.
Oh, just a thought was it is the small bay at the south end?

Yes it was the Platform 2 Dock - we just referred to it as Platform 2 so there wasn’t any confusion.

 

[Falcon1200]

Snowdon Mountain is a special case because each train only has one coach.

Indeed, and anyway, surely is not what most people, or us on here at least, would call a preserved railway - It is, and always has been, a commercial operation!

 

[Belperpete]

Indeed, and anyway, surely is not what most people, or us on here at least, would call a preserved railway - It is, and always has been, a commercial operation!

I doubt that many of the general public see any difference, and I very much doubt that the trains only having one coach or it being a commercial operation affects how much they are prepared to pay to travel on it.

 

[Krokodil]

I doubt that many of the general public see any difference, and I very much doubt that the trains only having one coach or it being a commercial operation affects how much they are prepared to pay to travel on it.

Most people travel on the SMR to get to the top. It's a transport operation that happens to retain a couple of steam engines.

 

[trebor79]

This reason gets trotted out ad nauseam by heritage railways. Hundreds of thousands of younger people can find the money for the latest mobile phones, latest trainers etc. They can also find the money to attend festivals see for example Camp Bestival in Dorset Adult one day ticket £91.

Yes, because they are working to earn money, not volunteering.

 

[Falcon1200]

It's a transport operation that happens to retain a couple of steam engines.

Yes, and the fares reflect the fact that it is not a preserved line staffed with many unpaid volunteers!

 

[Harpo]

There is definitely opportunity to make extra income from secondary spend, such as catering and souvenirs.

But the opportunity has to be grasped. If, like one railway, their pub has a 15 minute queue time for a beer every time a train arrives, that opportunity is being squandered.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

I understand some lines even justify their catering making a loss because it is needed to attract passengers to travel. That sounds like madness to me. At the very least, any catering outlet should at least break even.

But a significant proportion of the market (families particularly) expect catering, so if there isn't any they probably won't return. It then risks becoming a downward spiral as the more costs are cut, the fewer visitors are attracted. Catering should be seen as part of the overall offer rather than a profit centre in its own right. Even if it doesn't make a profit on its own, it may lead to higher ticket receipts.

 

[NER1621]

Catering should be seen as part of the overall offer rather than a profit centre in its own right. Even if it doesn't make a profit on its own, it may lead to higher ticket

And that way financial ruin beckons. Ticket prices, already insufficient to cover direct operating costs, should also subsidise the catering operation??!!

Yes, catering is now expected as part of the offer, but it should *always* be managed so that at a minimum it covers all its direct and indirect costs, and preferably makes a surplus (not a “profit”). That means tailoring the catering offer to what you can provide and still make a surplus: if that means only providing cups of tea and coffee, sandwiches and buns rather than offering full cooked breakfasts and hot main meals then so be it.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

And that way financial ruin beckons. Ticket prices, already insufficient to cover direct operating costs, should also subsidise the catering operation??!!

Yes, catering is now expected as part of the offer, but it should *always* be managed so that at a minimum it covers all its direct and indirect costs, and preferably makes a surplus (not a “profit”). That means tailoring the catering offer to what you can provide and still make a surplus: if that means only providing cups of tea and coffee, sandwiches and buns rather than offering full cooked breakfasts and hot main meals then so be it.

I think you've missed the point!

Catering is part of the expected offer and provided the overall operation makes a profit it is acceptable if individual parts don't - e.g. catering. It's simply not true that it has to make a profit ('surplus' means the same in this context). Yes, there is a balance to be struct over the level of catering provided, but it doesn't necessarily have to be profitable on its own.

If the overall offer is losing money this needs to be addressed by looking at it as a whole - just looking at parts in isolation and deciding 'we'll stop doing that' could well just make things worse!

This isn't just theorising - I have first-hand knowledge of visitor attractions (non-railway) where the catering is run at a slight loss but is part of the overall offer, which doesn't make a loss. Cut the offer significantly, and you risk losing significant custom, so the catering continues.

 

[driverd]

I think this is a more general trend in tourism decline, perhaps linked to tightening purse strings. You only have to look at the massive losses made last year by Merlins Entertainments (Alton Towers/London Eye etc) to see the trends here.

 

[Chester1]

Are real incomes still being squeezed? Yes they are lower in real terms than 15 years ago but compared with 3 or 4 years ago? It is fashionable to always say they are being squeezed. I have heard colleagues say they haven't had a real pay increase in several years but I have the same pay as them and it simply is not true.

 

[Siimo]

Are real incomes still being squeezed? Yes they are lower in real terms than 15 years ago but compared with 3 or 4 years ago? It is fashionable to always say they are being squeezed. I have heard colleagues say they haven't had a real pay increase in several years but I have the same pay as them and it simply is not true.

Plus there is a lot more availability of cheaper substitutes than historically - think how much people get bargain no-name brand things from China via Amazon vs going to a real shop and paying a premium.

 

[Mike Machin]

One of the main problems is that the success of heritage railways in the past has led to such a proliferation of them that now the bubble has burst, there are simply too many. When there were fewer, people who were holidaying or touring in an area with a heritage railway (steam railway in those days), they almost invariably included it as part of their itinerary.

Now, they often live close to a heritage railway. They have probably been there, and that's a big part of the problem. When money and time is tight and there are plenty of competing leisure activities, they will think 'been there, done that, got the T-shirt!' To most people, a ride ona steam train is a very pleasant way to spend a couple of hours, but it's not at the top of the their 'wish lists' and once they have done it, there has to be a very compelling reason to do that again.

I remember as a youngster, the local day-trip coach company ran weekly trips (sometimes twice weekly in high summer) from the Southampton area to the Bluebell Railway. That was a fairly long trip back in 1968/69/70 before today's road improvements, but coupled with a visit to Sheffield Park Gardens it was a very much in-demand day trip, as there was nothing remotely comparable nearby. Nowadays, people would drive, but they have other similar opportunities nearer to home at the Swanage Railway, Watercress Line, Eastleigh Lakeside, West Moors or Didcot Railway Centre.

The market has become very diluted.

 

[Harpo]

You only have to look at the massive losses made last year by Merlins Entertainments (Alton Towers/London Eye etc) to see the trends here.

Alton Towers seems to be a victim of it’s own success.

A local secondary only cancelled one year-end jolly due to lack of interest and that was Y11’s Alton Towers trip.

Previous experience of multi-hour queues meant most thought the trip a waste of time and money. Such views formed so young don’t bode well for Alton Towers’ future.

 

[driverd]

Are real incomes still being squeezed? Yes they are lower in real terms than 15 years ago but compared with 3 or 4 years ago? It is fashionable to always say they are being squeezed. I have heard colleagues say they haven't had a real pay increase in several years but I have the same pay as them and it simply is not true.

Yes, I'd say so - especially when a few hours on a steam train comes for a similar price as a day at Alton Towers etc (last time we went to Thorpe Park it was £29 per adult). Families have tough decisions to make - the macroeconomic trend is clearly towards saving money at the moment.

One of the main problems is that the success of heritage railways in the past has led to such a proliferation of them that now the bubble has burst, there are simply too many. When there were fewer, people who were holidaying or touring in an area with a heritage railway (steam railway in those days), they almost invariably included it as part of their itinerary.

How many have opened since 2019, when preserved railways were broadly keeping their heads above water?

Now, they often live close to a heritage railway. They have probably been there, and that's a big part of the problem. When money and time is tight and there are plenty of competing leisure activities, they will think 'been there, done that, got the T-shirt!' To most people, a ride ona steam train is a very pleasant way to spend a couple of hours, but it's not at the top of the their 'wish lists' and once they have done it, there has to be a very compelling reason to do that again.

The problem is, when the competing attraction is cheaper, it shifts the balance of spending out of the railways favour. I don't disagree theres a need for the railways to keep up, but again, look at the general trend. As I mentioned earlier, Merlins reported a £492 million loss last year. Simply put, people aren't spending as much money.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Aug 2025 ==

Alton Towers seems to be a victim of it’s own success.

A local secondary only cancelled one year-end jolly due to lack of interest and that was Y11’s Alton Towers trip.

Previous experience of multi-hour queues meant most thought the trip a waste of time and money. Such views formed so young don’t bode well for Alton Towers’ future.

Thats interesting to hear. That certainly isnt something that has changed in my lifetime, but previously it never put anyone off. I wonder if that's a reflection of the more general trend in society for instant gratification, over needing to actually wait for things?

Anyway, the more general point I was making is that Merlins as a group (hosting a very wide range of big name tourist brands, from London/York/Edinburgh Dungeons, to Sealife centres, to London eye and, of course, theme parks) has made a sizeable loss across its brands last year.

 

[Djgr]

One of the main problems is that the success of heritage railways in the past has led to such a proliferation of them that now the bubble has burst, there are simply too many. When there were fewer, people who were holidaying or touring in an area with a heritage railway (steam railway in those days), they almost invariably included it as part of their itinerary.

Now, they often live close to a heritage railway. They have probably been there, and that's a big part of the problem. When money and time is tight and there are plenty of competing leisure activities, they will think 'been there, done that, got the T-shirt!' To most people, a ride ona steam train is a very pleasant way to spend a couple of hours, but it's not at the top of the their 'wish lists' and once they have done it, there has to be a very compelling reason to do that again.

I remember as a youngster, the local day-trip coach company ran weekly trips (sometimes twice weekly in high summer) from the Southampton area to the Bluebell Railway. That was a fairly long trip back in 1968/69/70 before today's road improvements, but coupled with a visit to Sheffield Park Gardens it was a very much in-demand day trip, as there was nothing remotely comparable nearby. Nowadays, people would drive, but they have other similar opportunities nearer to home at the Swanage Railway, Watercress Line, Eastleigh Lakeside, West Moors or Didcot Railway Centre.

The market has become very diluted.

I would agree. Think how many there were in the 1970s and 1980s and consider whether there really has been a corresponding increase in demand.

 

[simonw]

Alton Towers seems to be a victim of it’s own success.

A local secondary only cancelled one year-end jolly due to lack of interest and that was Y11’s Alton Towers trip.

Previous experience of multi-hour queues meant most thought the trip a waste of time and money. Such views formed so young don’t bode well for Alton Towers’ future.

Yep, no one goes there, it's too busy. /s

 

[UP13]

Are real incomes still being squeezed? Yes they are lower in real terms than 15 years ago but compared with 3 or 4 years ago? It is fashionable to always say they are being squeezed. I have heard colleagues say they haven't had a real pay increase in several years but I have the same pay as them and it simply is not true.

Speaking as a teacher, I can confirm that in real terms we are no better off than a few years ago.

Put it this way. 5 years ago I was working part time and my situation at the end of each month was similar if not slightly better than it is now despite the fact I am working full time and my salary is much higher than it was.

For example, we've just been given a pay increase of 2% for this upcoming year. Everything else in our lives has gone up by more than that.

 

[driverd]

4) Changing demographic of the UK - regardless of what side of the debate you sit on, the demographics of the UK are changing, either as a result of age or nationality. I think it's absolutely fair to say that some of these demographics would simply not even think to visit a heritage railway - particularly where alcohol "real ale" etc is a significant contributor to the income of these railways. White British is generally the overwhelming demographic that visits heritage railways and maybe more could be done to try and expand that appeal.

Whilst I agree more could be done to broaden appeal of preserved railways, and certainly more should be done to appeal to foreign tourists, the arguement about UK demographics is arguably baseless.

To take 1980 as our abitary starting point, UK population was 56.3 million, of which approximately 52.7 million identified as white british born. In 2025, the population is projected to be 69.6 million by year end, with 73% White British, making the number 50.8 million.

If we incorrectly assume that no one other than white british people visit preserved railways, you're looking at a market decrease of 3.6% over 45 years.

Ignoring the false assumptions, growing UK tourist market and of course, the 20+% growth in overall UK population over the period, that in no way explains the rapid changes in profitability experienced since 2018.

 

[NER1621]

If the overall offer is losing money this needs to be addressed by looking at it as a whole - just looking at parts in isolation and deciding 'we'll stop doing that' could well just make things worse!

Which is the situation we are discussing. I’m not talking about profitable non-railway attractions where catering is a loss leader (and of which I also have experience): the subject of the thread is heritage railways which are making a loss on fare income where also making a loss on secondary spend just isn’t sustainable. I also wasn’t talking about stopping it: I was talking about cutting your catering coat to suit your cloth.

 

[D Mylchreest]

Bluebell doesn't help itself by having relatively big fleet, in steam, diesel and rolling stock. It would be tragedy to loose all the prewar coaches but they can't be cheap to maintain

The BR Mk1s are probably more expensive than the pre-nationalisation coaches.
I used to be a prolific visitor to many railways and was a member to many of them, including the Bluebell. I gave up because of the hostile attitudes of many of the volunteers there and elsewhere.
I think that many of the lines are too long. They cost a lot to maintain and it's difficult to entertain children on the limited view outside, as a good deal of any railway line is in cuttings.
Along with my model railway club I visited (on the club's annual outing) two Essex railways last month. One was brilliant and was being enjoyed by local visitors the other was a dump for withdrawn HST sets and there were very few visitors at all. A shame but there you are.
I think that the railways have got to do something dramatic if they are going to survive.

 

[43096]

The BR Mk1s are probably more expensive than the pre-nationalisation coaches.
I used to be a prolific visitor to many railways and was a member to many of them, including the Bluebell. I gave up because of the hostile attitudes of many of the volunteers there and elsewhere.
I think that many of the lines are too long. They cost a lot to maintain and it's difficult to entertain children on the limited view outside, as a good deal of any railway line is in cuttings.
Along with my model railway club I visited (on the club's annual outing) two Essex railways last month. One was brilliant and was being enjoyed by local visitors the other was a dump for withdrawn HST sets and there were very few visitors at all. A shame but there you are.
I think that the railways have got to do something dramatic if they are going to survive.

It isn’t a “dump for withdrawn HST vehicles” - those HST vehicles are part of the active fleet, if it is the railway I am thinking of.

 

[bramling]

Alton Towers seems to be a victim of it’s own success.

A local secondary only cancelled one year-end jolly due to lack of interest and that was Y11’s Alton Towers trip.

Previous experience of multi-hour queues meant most thought the trip a waste of time and money. Such views formed so young don’t bode well for Alton Towers’ future.

I’ve never understood why people want to subject themselves to somewhere like Alton Towers where they end up spending much of the time standing in depressing queues. But by the same token, being stuck in a hot carriage on a preserved railway with kids screaming isn’t a great idea of fun either. As ever, there is a real problem with quality in this country.

 

[778]

I used to be a prolific visitor to many railways and was a member to many of them, including the Bluebell. I gave up because of the hostile attitudes of many of the volunteers there and elsewhere

What did the volunteers do that was hostile?

 

[eldomtom2]

the subject of the thread is heritage railways which are making a loss on fare income where also making a loss on secondary spend just isn’t sustainable.

Well, the question is really if they'd be making more of a loss overall if they cut catering.

 

[tbtc]

Whilst I agree more could be done to broaden appeal of preserved railways, and certainly more should be done to appeal to foreign tourists, the arguement about UK demographics is arguably baseless.

To take 1980 as our abitary starting point, UK population was 56.3 million, of which approximately 52.7 million identified as white british born. In 2025, the population is projected to be 69.6 million by year end, with 73% White British, making the number 50.8 million.

If we incorrectly assume that no one other than white british people visit preserved railways, you're looking at a market decrease of 3.6% over 45 years.

Ignoring the false assumptions, growing UK tourist market and of course, the 20+% growth in overall UK population over the period, that in no way explains the rapid changes in profitability experienced since 2018.

It's impossible to know, and I wish no ill on any preserved line, but my hunch is as follows:

The generation born in roughly the twenty years following the second world war are called 'baby boomers' because the population went up so much

Stability, prosperity, employment levels so high that we actively encouraged migration (Windrush etc)

They're a demographic 'bulge' in many statistics, and a generation particularly interested in things like steam trains

In 2015, someone born in about 1950 would be around sixty five. Probably healthier than their parents were at that age, if indeed their parents did live that long (when the first 'state pensions' were induced after the first world war, most people died before age sixty five, so few qualified)

And generally wealthier - the generation that were able to take advantage of council house sales/ shares in previously nationalised industries etc, not to mention pensions

Age sixty five, possibly able to afford to take early retirement, fit enough to visit various sites a year or volunteer at one

Ten years later (i.e. today) that person is more like seventy five, time catching up. Days out may have to be rationed, funds maybe tighter after the initial boost of a lump sum from your pension scheme

Those seventy five year olds aren't being replaced as quickly by people born in the sixties, who have no memory of the lines people blame Doctor Beeching for today (whether they were on his list or not), only of the drab/utilitarian British Rail of the 1970/1980s

They don't have the same attachment to the railway, not in the same numbers anyway. And they aren't as wealthy at retirement

At the same time, lines are trying to deal with the financial realities of completing with various legislation (e.g. minimum wage, health and safety - that cafe still needs a hygiene certificate) in a world where scrapyards don't have bounteous stocks of redundant steam locomotives for spare parts

Those reaching their sixties in future may love trains because of Sodor or Hogwarts (or even Chuggington!) but they weren't from a generation where train spotting was a mass moment. The trains of their childhood were efficient/boring , multiple units rather than tank engines

Short version - It's only a decade since 2015 but there's a big difference between sixty five and seventy five (in terms of free time/ health/ money, which are all factors in volunteering/ visiting) and the memories of trains for someone born in the 1960s will be a lot weaker than someone born in 1950

(obviously there are exceptions, as there are with all generations, I'm not trying to get into any arguments about anyone being better)