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Russia invades Ukraine

yorkie

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Do you have links to these "third world news media"? It'd be helpful if the rest of us could see your information sources...
Quite.

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No-one cares in Europe about this topic, it's an issue only for the Republicans in the US who want a pro-Moscow puppet in control there. Everyone else correctly understands that the idea of holding an election in wartime is completely absurd and not feasible.
Ukraine was peaceful when ran by a pro Moscow 'puppet'. His name was Leonid Kuchma.
 
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Bletchleyite

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https://www.hindustantimes.com/topic/ukraine-war You can't only read UK news because the FCO, MI5 and the MOD coordinate the media messaging to invoke fear and hatred of Russia, see the Daily Express for example, portraying Putin as a cartoonish Hitler like conqueror of all of Europe. The Indian papers cite westen hyprocrisy multiple times around oil purchases

1. It is quite offensive and inaccurate to refer to India as "the third world".
2. India is biased in favour of Russia because it's buying its oil and other stuff on the cheap.

So that's a bad example. Got any actually from what we would call the "third world"?
 

Yew

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Rheinmetall are doing just that.
My understanding is that Russia threatened to attack the factory with aircraft on twitter. Unfortunately Rheinmetall didn't respond with a link to a catalogue for their anti-aircraft weapons.
 

doc7austin

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Those banned opposition parties are well known to be linked to Russia.
Who in an democracy has the right to decide that an opposition party is linked to Russia ?

There's every reason to ban them, particularly the "Opposition Platform for Life" which is a front for Medvedchuk, an oligarch with close links to Putin and who vanished within hours of the war starting.
So people have voted for a party/candidate in an election and then the party is banned, because it is claimed to be "a front for Medvedchuk, an oligarch with close links to Putin and who vanished within hours of the war starting."

No-one cares in Europe about this topic, it's an issue only for the Republicans in the US who want a pro-Moscow puppet in control there. Everyone else correctly understands that the idea of holding an election in wartime is completely absurd and not feasible.
We are talking about elections after a complete ceasefire. And some argue here that - as long as the Russian threat exists - no election should be held.
The same line of argumentation could be used by governments in Finland and the Baltic States to cancel elections forever.
As Ukraine wants to become a member of EU, this topic is very much relevant. How does Ukraine want to convince all parliaments in 26 EU countries to ratify its accession to the EU - while Ukraine has had elections since 2019 ?

Rheinmetall are doing just that.
Where ? I have read many articles about that claim, but I haven't found any article containing any credible details.

My understanding is that Russia threatened to attack the factory with aircraft on twitter.
What is the source that the Russian threatened to attack the Rheinmetall plant ?
 

doc7austin

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Ukraine was peaceful when ran by a pro Moscow 'puppet'. His name was Leonid Kuchma.
Kravchuk and Kuchma ran the Ukrainian economy into the ground.
Without the collapse of the Ukrainian economy in the 1990's there would have been no war today.

Anyone has a right to hold any political opinion they wish. The value of that opinion is of course stronger if combined with evidence, which I'm sure could be found in this case.
So what happens to Ukrainian parties, where there is strong evidence that they are linked to USA or EU ?
I am asking, because I don't find a provision in the Ukrainian Constitution that would allow the ban of parties, where evidence is found that they were linked with foreign powers.
 

Yew

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Where ? I have read many articles about that claim, but I haven't found any article containing any credible details.
If you google the words "rheinmetall factory ukraine" the first answer is a press release from Rheinmetall saying they're doing just that. I feel that the reason you haven't found any credible details ay be because you haven't looked.

What is the source that the Russian threatened to attack the Rheinmetall plant ?
MOSCOW, Oct 29 (Reuters) - A military factory of German concern Rheinmetall (RHMG.DE)
, opens new tab which opened in Ukraine in late October could become a target for Russian attacks, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said on Tuesday.
When asked about the plant, Peskov said it would 'of course' be a legitimate target.
 

RailWonderer

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1. It is quite offensive and inaccurate to refer to India as "the third world".
2. India is biased in favour of Russia because it's buying its oil and other stuff on the cheap.

So that's a bad example. Got any actually from what we would call the "third world"?
I didn't mean to offend, 'politically unaffiliated' or 'neutral' countries I'll say instead, though I can't think of any countries that wouldn't have any ties to Russia or the west, I'd guess Nepal or Bhutan?
 

Yew

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I am asking, because I don't find a provision in the Ukrainian Constitution that would allow the ban of parties, where evidence is found that they were linked with foreign powers.
Did you actually bother to look?

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I didn't mean to offend, 'politically unaffiliated' or 'neutral' countries I'll say instead, though I can't think of any countries that wouldn't have any ties to Russia or the west, I'd guess Nepal or Bhutan?
To be fair, originally the term "third world" did apply to countries that were not aligned with the US/Nato or USSR.
 

doc7austin

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btw: Zelenskyy has just arrived in Berlin - officially to take part in a video call with Trump later today.
Unofficially, I believe he wants to secure a last-minute invitation to Friday's Alaska Summit, that's why he put his government A319 into position in Berlin in order to make it on-time to Alaska.

Personally, I find it a bit embarrassing how Zelenskyy tries to sneak into that summit. That is not a big sign of power and statesmanship.
 

Tester

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btw: Zelenskyy has just arrived in Berlin - officially to take part in a video call with Trump later today.
Unofficially, I believe he wants to secure a last-minute invitation to Friday's Alaska Summit, that's why he put his government A319 into position in Berlin in order to make it on-time to Alaska.

Personally, I find it a bit embarrassing how Zelenskyy tries to sneak into that summit. That is not a big sign of power and statesmanship.
Maybe he wants to avoid his country being carved up by others.

Shock, horror!
 

OhNoAPacer

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btw: Zelenskyy has just arrived in Berlin - officially to take part in a video call with Trump later today.
Unofficially, I believe he wants to secure a last-minute invitation to Friday's Alaska Summit, that's why he put his government A319 into position in Berlin in order to make it on-time to Alaska.

Personally, I find it a bit embarrassing how Zelenskyy tries to sneak into that summit. That is not a big sign of power and statesmanship.
Is that the summit where Ukraine is in danger of being dismembered because Trump didn't invite him despite initially saying it would be a three way summit. That summit?
 

Cloud Strife

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Did you actually bother to look?

Just for kicks, the relevant law is the: Law on Amendments to Certain Legislative Acts of Ukraine Concerning the Prohibition (Dissolution, Compulsory Dissolution) of Political Parties (№ 7172-1), which was passed by the Verkhovna Rada on May 3rd and signed by President Zelenskyy on May 14th. Or perhaps he's referring more to the decision of the National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine on March 20, 2022 which initially suspended those parties.

All perfectly legal, and the law itself essentially makes it clear that political parties can be banned for having a pro-Russia stance or for things like justifying the attack on Ukraine, presenting the conflict as a civil war or engaging in anti-Ukrainian activities.

It's also worth pointing out that banning political parties is normal in other countries too. For instance, both the Nazi and the Socialist Reich parties are banned in Germany. The excellent German constitutional blog Verfassung also describes the general situation in Europe - https://verfassungsblog.de/party-bans-and-populism-in-europe/

In a study I conducted with Fernando Casal Bértoa mapping variation in party ban practices, we found that 20 out of the 37 European democracies we studied banned over 50 parties between 1945 and 2015.
 

doc7austin

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Maybe he wants to avoid his country being carved up by others.

Shock, horror!
All Trump can do is to stop military and economic aid (remove the tariffs) to Ukraine.
Trump cannot carve up Ukraine.
The underlying issue is more that Ukraine is so dependent on the USA, hence, Ukrainian government is reacting in such a nervous way about the Alaska Summit.

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Did you actually bother to look?

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I did ! Again, I can find no provision in the Ukrainian Constitution that would empower the Ukrainien government to ban parties.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Just for kicks, the relevant law is the: Law on Amendments to Certain Legislative Acts of Ukraine Concerning the Prohibition (Dissolution, Compulsory Dissolution) of Political Parties (№ 7172-1), which was passed by the Verkhovna Rada on May 3rd and signed by President Zelenskyy on May 14th. Or perhaps he's referring more to the decision of the National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine on March 20, 2022 which initially suspended those parties.
That is not a quote from the Ukrainian Constitution.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

It's also worth pointing out that banning political parties is normal in other countries too. For instance, both the Nazi and the Socialist Reich parties are banned in Germany. The excellent German constitutional blog Verfassung also describes the general situation in Europe - https://verfassungsblog.de/party-bans-and-populism-in-europe/
If you read this link carefully, you will see that the German Government does not have the power to ban political parties in Germany.

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How is this "sneaking"?
Why did Zelenskyy fly to Berlin today ?

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If you google the words "rheinmetall factory ukraine" the first answer is a press release from Rheinmetall saying they're doing just that. I feel that the reason you haven't found any credible details ay be because you haven't looked.


I know this article.
"MOSCOW, Oct 29 (Reuters) - A military factory of German concern Rheinmetall (RHMG.DE), opens new tab which opened in Ukraine in late October could become a target for Russian attacks, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said on Tuesday."

Though, I don't think that Peskov is a reliable primary source that a Rheinmetall factory existed since 2024.
 
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edwin_m

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Trump has been consistent for 25 years now - he was against in Iraq War, which Bush started in 2003. Ukraine participated in that illegal war of aggression. So I am not surprised that Trump holds a grudge against Ukraine.
As did the UK for example (wrongly in my view), but Trump doesn't seem to have that degree of hatred for us. Far more likely it's because Zelensky stood up to Trump, not caving in to Trump's threat to withhold military aid if Ukraine didn't prosecute Hunter Biden.
All Trump can do is to stop military and economic aid (remove the tariffs) to Ukraine.
Trump cannot carve up Ukraine.
The underlying issue is more that Ukraine is so dependent on the USA, hence, Ukrainian government is reacting in such a nervous way about the Alaska Summit.
You've contradicted your own point. Ukraine is highly dependent on the USA for military aid, and will be for some years until Europe can step in as a replacement. If Trump stops military aid then that's effectively going to lead to Russia carving up Ukraine even more, as we started to see when Congress suspended it in late 2023.
Personally, I find it a bit embarrassing how Zelenskyy tries to sneak into that summit. That is not a big sign of power and statesmanship.
What would your view be if Roosevelt had opened talks with Hitler about a truce in WW2, without involving Churchill?
 

doc7austin

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What would your view be if Roosevelt had opened talks with Hitler about a truce in WW2, without involving Churchill?
I'd recommend to watch movies and TV series in Ukraine in the 1970s and 1980s, esp. the TV series Seventeen Moments of Spring. It has the most popular TV series ever in Ukraine, emptying streets during its showing. That TV series evolved around this topic (Americans open talks with Hitler-Germany). Every Ukrainian from this generation knows how American betrayel feels like.

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You've contradicted your own point. Ukraine is highly dependent on the USA for military aid, and will be for some years until Europe can step in as a replacement. If Trump stops military aid then that's effectively going to lead to Russia carving up Ukraine even more, as we started to see when Congress suspended it in late 2023.
Right, this is the strategic dilemma of Ukraine.
Ukraine is 100% dependent on decisions by the US Government. And this is the main reason why Ukraine is loosing this war.
If European countries put up sanctions against Russia, they can be largely avoided by Russia, if the USA does not participate in these sanction regimes. Also European government must seek permissions from the USA to ship most high-tech weapons to Ukraine.

I love the Ukrainian people (I am one of them). However, the stupidity of the current and past Ukrainian government is just beyond belief. The notion to trust the US-Americans to defend them (and not betray them) is the biggest geo-strategic mistake the Ukrainian governments ever made. The older generates knows this.
 
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35B

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I call strawman
I did ! Again, I can find no provision in the Ukrainian Constitution that would empower the Ukrainien government to ban parties.

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That is not a quote from the Ukrainian Constitution.
I'm sure it's not. But I'd be interested to know where the Ukrainian Constitution makes such a ban illegal.
If you read this link carefully, you will see that the German Government does not have the power to ban political parties in Germany.
That doesn't mean such powers don't exist within Germany.
 

dgl

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Would we have allowed an "I love Hitler" party to exist during WW II, I think not, so why should Ukraine allow "I love Putin" parties?
 

doc7austin

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I call strawman

I'm sure it's not. But I'd be interested to know where the Ukrainian Constitution makes such a ban illegal.
Article 36 and 37 talk about political parties in the Ukrainian Constitution.

That doesn't mean such powers don't exist within Germany.
They do exist, but neither the Germany government, nor the parliament possess these powers.

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Would we have allowed an "I love Hitler" party to exist during WW II, I think not, so why should Ukraine allow "I love Putin" parties?
... because I'd not characterize Opposition Platform — For Life as a "I love Putin" party.

Read more about that party here from a pro-Ukrainian source : https://www.pravda.com.ua/columns/2022/03/11/7330295/

I think the ban of Opposition Platform — For Life only applies during martial law.
 

35B

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Article 36 and 37 talk about political parties in the Ukrainian Constitution.
Thank you. https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Cons...man_and_Citizens'_Rights,_Freedoms_and_Duties gives the Constitution in English translation, where I have highlighted the sequence of phrases making clear where the constitution permits restrictions (my emphasis):

Article 36​

Citizens of Ukraine have the right to freedom of association in political parties and public organizations for the exercise and protection of their rights and freedoms and for the satisfaction of their political, economic, social, cultural and other interests, with the exception of restrictions established by law in the interests of national security and public order, the protection of the health of the population or the protection of rights and freedoms of other persons.

Political parties in Ukraine promote the formation and expression of the political will of citizens, and participate in elections. Only citizens of Ukraine may be members of political parties. Restrictions on membership in political parties are established exclusively by this Constitution and the laws of Ukraine.

Citizens have the right to take part in trade unions with the purpose of protecting their labor and socio-economic rights and interests. Trade unions are public organizations that unite citizens bound by common interests that accord with the nature of their professional activity. Trade unions are formed without prior permission on the basis of the free choice of their members. All trade unions have equal rights. Restrictions on membership in trade unions are established exclusively by this Constitution and the laws of Ukraine.

No one may be forced to join any association of citizens or be restricted in his or her rights for belonging or not belonging to political parties or public organizations.

All associations of citizens are equal before the law.

Article 37​

The establishment and activity of political parties and public associations are prohibited if their program goals or actions are aimed at the liquidation of the independence of Ukraine, the change of the constitutional order by violent means, the violation of the sovereignty and territorial indivisibility of the State, the undermining of its security, the unlawful seizure of state power, the propaganda of war and of violence, the incitement of inter-ethnic, racial, or religious enmity, and the encroachment on human rights and freedoms and the health of the population.

Political parties and public associations shall not have paramilitary formations.

The creation and activity of organizational structures of political parties shall not be permitted within bodies of executive and judicial power and executive bodies of local self-government, in military formations, and also in state enterprises, educational establishments and other state institutions and organizations.

The prohibition of the activity of associations of citizens is exercised only through judicial procedure.
So, in other words, the Ukrainian government are entirely within their rights to ban parties seeking to undermine the state of Ukraine, but they have to do so using the law and are subject to the courts.

Those seem to me an entirely reasonable balancing act between the rights of individuals and society as a whole. And in the context of a war running since 2014, unsurprising that the application of these might not be to the advantage of parties supporting the Russian state as it is at present.
 

doc7austin

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I've carefully read articles 36 and 37 of the Ukrainian Constitution.
I don't think Opposition Platform — For Life have participated in such prohibited activities.
 

Grimsby town

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Hungary is playing its cards right, balancing east and west.

We didn't leave the EU to ally with Russia, we left to make our own laws outside of Brussels, and to limit immigration (both of which haven't been done). We will always be western aligned and everyone knew that, alliance isn't a question for us. Why would Hungary antagonise Russia given much of their energy comes from Russia? Same with India. Germany has suffered with the sabotage of Nordstream and is paying dearly for it economically.
But the UK has at least retreated from the EUs sphere of influence so it has less control. Certain leave figures were certainly advocating for us to get closer to non-western countries and Reform definitely have elements that are more pro-russia than EU, so I don't believe it's completely out of the question we move towards Russia. Plenty of people would have said the US will always be western aligned, it doesn't appear to be now.

The fact Hungary can balance the EU and Russia proves my point. The EU could quite easily invade Hungary and install a new regime but they haven't. They've used soft power measures rather than force to try influence Hungary. Belarus, Moldova, Serbia all have Russian influence. Moldova and Belarus have Russian soldiers stationed there, still the EU haven't invaded. Its frankly ridiculous to suggest that the West are as likely to invade countries as Russia are to achieve strategic aims.
 

doc7austin

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UK and Russia have been foes for centuries - that won't change. And Nigel Farage won't risk loosing all the military vote.

The EU could quite easily invade Hungary and install a new regime but they haven't.
The EU doesn't even have an army. Which EU countries would participate in a war of aggression against Hungary?

Germany certainly won't !
 

Grimsby town

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UK and Russia have been foes for centuries - that won't change. And Nigel Farage won't risk loosing all the military vote.
So has the US (albeit for less time), so why won't it change with the UK. Its very unlikely but impossible to say it won't.

Edit: Although the UK and Russia have technically also been allies at time within the last couple of centuries too.
The EU doesn't even have an army. Which EU countries would participate in a war of aggression against Hungary?

Germany certainly won't !
That's my point nobody wants to invade Hungary. The point of the OP was that if neighbouring countries became friendly towards Russia, western countries would invade them. Its not going to happen.
 

ainsworth74

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UK and Russia since about 1918???

Since the mid-1800s. The Crimean War most famously (1853 - 1856) though admittedly there was a bit of tiff during the Napoleonic Wars in the early 1800s between us and the Russians in the Baltic but that was pretty half hearted on both sides with just a few minor skirmishes really. The Crimean War was the big rift in UK - Russian relations.

Have to say though that it does amuse me how we clearly still live rent free in their heads over there. Always whanging on about Britain being responsible for this that and the other.
 

brad465

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Since the mid-1800s. The Crimean War most famously (1853 - 1856) though admittedly there was a bit of tiff during the Napoleonic Wars in the early 1800s between us and the Russians in the Baltic but that was pretty half hearted on both sides with just a few minor skirmishes really. The Crimean War was the big rift in UK - Russian relations.

Have to say though that it does amuse me how we clearly still live rent free in their heads over there. Always whanging on about Britain being responsible for this that and the other.
I recall Putin saying the UK is just "a small island no-one cares about." He obviously cares about it though, otherwise he wouldn't have sent some "tourists" to Salisbury, or repeatedly allowed Russian jets to suspiciously fly into UK airspace.
 

RailWonderer

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So has the US (albeit for less time), so why won't it change with the UK. Its very unlikely but impossible to say it won't.

Edit: Although the UK and Russia have technically also been allies at time within the last couple of centuries too.

That's my point nobody wants to invade Hungary. The point of the OP was that if neighbouring countries became friendly towards Russia, western countries would invade them. Its not going to happen.
They'll stage political coups, use NGOs to encourage riots and uprisings, through organisations like Progressive Slovakia which PM Robert Fico accused the UK of using to meddle in their 2023 elections which the FCO of course denied it in their press release, but they are more subtle at battling Russia for influence in central and eastern Europe.
“This is a targeted and deliberate act by a foreign power, our ally in NATO, to influence the internal democratic processes of the Slovak Republic,” Fico said. “It is an indisputable fact.”

The west uses different tactics, not military force, because democracies can't as easily risk millions of men because they don't have control of the media and the ability to kidnap men on the streets and force them into service.
Since the mid-1800s. The Crimean War most famously (1853 - 1856) though admittedly there was a bit of tiff during the Napoleonic Wars in the early 1800s between us and the Russians in the Baltic but that was pretty half hearted on both sides with just a few minor skirmishes really. The Crimean War was the big rift in UK - Russian relations.

Have to say though that it does amuse me how we clearly still live rent free in their heads over there. Always whanging on about Britain being responsible for this that and the other.
The Brits imported liberal democracy to the US which is now it's great foe. It exported a culture of law and order, transparency and accountability to its colonies, andlater BBC world news, all things incompatible with authoritiarianism.

Relations began when Ivan the Terrible corresponded with Queen Elizabeth I when British sailors landed in Arkahngensk, and Britain and Russia were allies when European despots were our big enemy. Then British colonial interests in the Ottoman Empire led to Britain turning on Russia, then when The Soviet Union annexed territories where British colonial interests lay in central Asia near India, the adversarial relationship carried on. Besides the two World Wars and the 1991-2007 period when Putin made the Munich speech, Britain and Russia have always been foes. Putin however sat in the carriage with the Queen in 2003 and seemed to quite enjoy all the pomp and ceremony. Somebody ought to remind him of that day.
 

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