How Viable are Preserved Railways?

[Rail Ranger]

I disagree. Many diesel enthusiasts divide their time between main line charters and diesel gala events at heritage railways.

 

[A S Leib]

But how many main line charter passengers are diesel enthusiasts rather than people seeking luxury experiences?

 

[Rail Ranger]

I perhaps should have made myself clearer. I was meaning railway enthusiasts who go on charter trains which are run for their benefit. There are still quite a few of such trains but they are threatened by ETCS (and by other factors such as spiralling ticket costs and a declining demographic).

 

[A S Leib]

the NR connection and interchange may turn out not to be a sufficient financial benefit to justify it

As much as I'd like to see more interchanges, I wonder how many heritage railways it's been beneficial for so far. For ones like the Chinnor and Princes Risborough or Cholsey and Wallingford with only two stations, and the NR one having a frequent service to somewhere like London, I'd suspect it's worth it. For cases like the (from what I remember, short-lived) Northallerton West, or Whitby, I wonder if the heritage railways would be better off following the Epping Ongar Railway's example of bus links to stations.

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by other factors such as spiralling ticket costs

There'll always be a price point at which some interested people would be put off, but the only ones I've seen which I've found affordable in the UK have been the much shorter ones (typically ~40 minutes for the Metropolitan ones?) on the London Underground.

 

[Rail Ranger]

The 1970s and 80s were a golden era for affordable railtours.

 

[158760]

I suspect that this is part of the reason why the Bluebell made a half-millon loss last year and could well make a similar loss this year, while the Ffestiniog didn't.

To my mind, if a line is running at a loss, it effectively means that they are subsidising people to travel on it. This is unsustainable. Either there has to be significant cost cutting (and you would need to make quite a few people redundant in order to save half a million each year), or fares need to go up to a level where income matches outgoings.

Unfortunately as well as significant retrenchment in the heritage sector, I suspect that we are also going to see significant fare increases. Some lines, such as the Ffestiniog, have already started this. Some for example have already cut back on member benefits, and changed their fare structures so that those making part journeys pay more. But TBH this kind of thing is just fiddling around the edges, and won't bring in significant extra income. That will only be achieved by increasing the headline fares that the majority of passengers pay.

You can only increase fares by so much unfortunately - they already went up at the start of this year. I do think it was very generous (perhaps too generous) to charge the Bluebell 65 gala as a standard travel day rather than a gala day.

Other solutions are being looked into, more on the side of reducing costs - such as condensing the operational week, removing unnecessary services and making dining services as profitable as possible. This can sometimes mean going in the opposite direction - The Golden Arrow recently saw a ticket price reduction, and is now almost always fully booked compared to two thirds full previously.

 

[Gooner18]

From what I’ve read the watercress line is doing reasonably well financially, it’s a good railway to visit with plenty to do and see on top of that the engine work hard so get a good noise off them .
Bluebell line is also a lovely one to visit with again plenty to do and see ( only thing I’ve found tho is they always tend to run behind the time table , or at when least when I visit. Not a big deal though. ) I do think they don’t match their timetable to certain events. I .e the engine shed visits etc.

Epping and Onger is my local one , being new in terms of being a heritage railway it is good although not much to do there imo , but certainly well worth a visit , hopefully they will be able to get a terminus built at Epping which will help them.

 

[duffield]

As much as I'd like to see more interchanges, I wonder how many heritage railways it's been beneficial for so far. For ones like the Chinnor and Princes Risborough or Cholsey and Wallingford with only two stations, and the NR one having a frequent service to somewhere like London, I'd suspect it's worth it. For cases like the (from what I remember, short-lived) Northallerton West, or Whitby, I wonder if the heritage railways would be better off following the Epping Ongar Railway's example of bus links to stations.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Aug 2025 ==


There'll always be a price point at which some interested people would be put off, but the only ones I've seen which I've found affordable in the UK have been the much shorter ones (typically ~40 minutes for the Metropolitan ones?) on the London Underground.

I was surprised to read a post from a Bluebell volunteer saying that the East Grinstead interchange really doesn't get much traffic outside of certain event days; I thought if any extension/connection was going to be beneficial it would be that one, with regular direct trains from London to East Grinstead plus the fact that I've always understood many London residents don't have a car due to London's ubiquitous public transport.

Mainline interchanges are extremely helpful for people like me who rely exclusively on public transport (OK, plus the very occasional taxi), but I'm not sure there's enough of us to make it worthwhile.

I don't think it's very likely any lines will be cutting off already built extensions which provide national rail cross platform or cross town interchanges, but I can see that some of them might abandon their physical connections to NR if they are underused to the extent that they don't cover the annual fee I understand NR charges to keep the connection "live". I've certainly seen claims here that the occasional railtour, plus savings on loco movements and maintenance equipment may well not cover the costs.

 

[158760]

From what I’ve read the watercress line is doing reasonably well financially, it’s a good railway to visit with plenty to do and see on top of that the engine work hard so get a good noise off them .
Bluebell line is also a lovely one to visit with again plenty to do and see ( only thing I’ve found tho is they always tend to run behind the time table , or at when least when I visit. Not a big deal though. ) I do think they don’t match their timetable to certain events. I .e the engine shed visits etc.

Rather annoyingly for visitors there’s a public timetable and a working timetable - the WTT can often have trains timetabled to leave up to 20 minutes later than the public timetable does, so although the railway has the train on time, for visitors the service is late.

I remember our conversation about the shed tours not being accessible from East Grinstead, so I will pass that on. They are new for this year, so can and likely will be adapted.

 

[eldomtom2]

I suspect that this is part of the reason why the Bluebell made a half-millon loss last year and could well make a similar loss this year, while the Ffestiniog didn't.

To my mind, if a line is running at a loss, it effectively means that they are subsidising people to travel on it. This is unsustainable. Either there has to be significant cost cutting (and you would need to make quite a few people redundant in order to save half a million each year), or fares need to go up to a level where income matches outgoings.

Unfortunately as well as significant retrenchment in the heritage sector, I suspect that we are also going to see significant fare increases. Some lines, such as the Ffestiniog, have already started this. Some for example have already cut back on member benefits, and changed their fare structures so that those making part journeys pay more. But TBH this kind of thing is just fiddling around the edges, and won't bring in significant extra income. That will only be achieved by increasing the headline fares that the majority of passengers pay.

The thing is, the money earned from ticket sales isn't just based on the price of tickets, it's also based on how many people buy tickets, and obviously that number will go down as the price increases. Finding the price where revenue is maximised is of course very difficult.
Also, as I pointed out previously, it's not uncommon for charities that run visitor attractions to not break even from admissions. That doesn't inherently make them unsustainable.

 

[Gooner18]

Rather annoyingly for visitors there’s a public timetable and a working timetable - the WTT can often have trains timetabled to leave up to 20 minutes later than the public timetable does, so although the railway has the train on time, for visitors the service is late.

I remember our conversation about the shed tours not being accessible from East Grinstead, so I will pass that on. They are new for this year, so can and likely will be adapted.

I did contact them regarding the tours , the reply I got was it’s worked around availability between services etc , they also said people still come from east Grinstead but just miss the first 20 odd minutes which i thought was an odd thing to say , why would people pay knowing they are going to miss at least 20 mins ( if train is on time).
Your second point is some what baffling to me. Why on earth would you run two separate time tables ? That makes no logical sense, especially as customers will be working around the published one

 

[158760]

I did contact them regarding the tours , the reply I got was it’s worked around availability between services etc , they also said people still come from east Grinstead but just miss the first 20 odd minutes which i thought was an odd thing to say , why would people pay knowing they are going to miss at least 20 mins ( if train is on time).
Your second point is some what baffling to me. Why on earth would you run two separate time tables ? That makes no logical sense, especially as customers will be working around the published one

Not an ideal situation with the tours, and it would be more like half an hour missed, which at that point is just a waste of money. Will chase it up, as the tours should be available to anyone who wants to do it and meets the criteria.

I have absolutely no idea why there are two different timetables - it has always baffled me too! I presume it’s a legacy thing that was never changed?

 

[sad1e]

Would it be more resilient for the heritage, and less hassle for HS2 if the entire Quainton Road site were moved to a Thame Industrial estate, and they funded the rebuild of the line to Princes Risborough? So you'd have a fairly unique 'V' journey to Risborough then Chinnor.

I find the current situation of Quainton road quite sad , they've really had all their options for building a decent running line snatched from right under them as :

Pylons Were built on the Alignment of the Quainton - Verney Jn branch.

BR kept Aylesbury - Quainton open for the binliner and passenger services are being reinstated for EWR

HS2 has taken their ability to built the Quainton Tramway as it cuts right through its Alignment and to add insult to injury follows the GCML for a good bit north of the site taking away the ability to rebuild that.

Overall Quainton road is in quite a sticky situation , they have a small inexpandable site with poor transport links to the site ( 16 bus once per hour from Aylesbury ), I wouldn't be surprised to see them not last long in the grand scheme of heritage railways.

 

[778]

I suspect that this is part of the reason why the Bluebell made a half-millon loss last year and could well make a similar loss this year, while the Ffestiniog didn't.

To my mind, if a line is running at a loss, it effectively means that they are subsidising people to travel on it. This is unsustainable. Either there has to be significant cost cutting (and you would need to make quite a few people redundant in order to save half a million each year), or fares need to go up to a level where income matches outgoings.

Unfortunately as well as significant retrenchment in the heritage sector, I suspect that we are also going to see significant fare increases. Some lines, such as the Ffestiniog, have already started this. Some for example have already cut back on member benefits, and changed their fare structures so that those making part journeys pay more. But TBH this kind of thing is just fiddling around the edges, and won't bring in significant extra income. That will only be achieved by increasing the headline fares that the majority of passengers pay.

What do you mean by significant retrenchment? Preserved lines closing?

If you make fares too expensive it will put a lot of people off travelling on preserved railways and passenger number will reduce year after year. That will become unsustainable as well.

 

[Uncle Buck]

How many heritage railways have TikTok and Instagram accounts being updated daily with innovative content? To my mind, a load of complete rubbish, but something any clothing brand, more-than-mid-market restaurant or cafe, or day trip destination like a stately home simply needs to do to as a matter of course nowadays.

Also, as others have said, trying to sell 1960s nostalgia was all right twenty years ago when most of the grandparents taking kids to the railway could remember that decade. It’s simply harder to do now most grandparents will have no memory of that time.

 

[Belperpete]

What do you mean by significant retrenchment? Preserved lines closing?

I was meaning more about things like cutting unprofitable services, reducing the number of operating days and the like. But sadly, I do think that the sheer number of preserved lines is likely to be unsustainable long term.

 

[railfan99]

I am a shareholder of West Somerset Railway.

Have not viewed its accounts for FY 25 but in previous years a net loss of £400,000-500,000 seemed typical.

 

[Belperpete]

If you make fares too expensive it will put a lot of people off travelling on preserved railways and passenger number will reduce year after year. That will become unsustainable as well.

The Snowdon Mountain Railway must have significant operating costs, as it can only carry a very limited number of passengers on each train, each of which is crewed with two members of paid staff. The fares are very expensive as a result, yet sufficient people travel on it to break even.

The Ffestiniog's first class is always the first to fill up, again indicating that there are plenty of people who are prepared to pay a significant fare.

I think some enthusiasts seem to have ideas about pricing that are based more on nostalgia than present day realities. The idea that £20 or £30 per person is too much to pay for a day or even half a day's entertainment is ludicrous. These days, families are prepared to pay significant sums for a day at the likes of Alton Towers.

I spent something like £200 just to get to the Bluebell's recent gala. The Bluebell fare cost was negligible in comparison. Do you really think I would have been put off if the fare were even double what they currently charge?

Yes, putting up the price would mean a drop in the numbers. But it isn't the number of passengers that is important. What is important is to break even, in order for the line to survive. If that means carrying significantly less passengers, paying significantly higher fares, then so be it.

 

[Barclay]

Declining visitor numbers are not unique to the heritage railway movement. Both English Heritage and the National Trust are in trouble at the moment, with redundancies and closures at both organisations.

The problems facing the heritage sector are mainly due to the fact that most people have proportionally less disposable income than they did 15 years ago. The costs of operating have also significantly increased.

I could see some railways retracting/returning from being a commercial tourist attraction to being volunteer-run sites for people to indulge their hobbies. The railway I am in involved with has no paid staff, limited weekend summer operations, and is actually doing very well.

 

[bramling]

The Snowdon Mountain Railway must have significant operating costs, as it can only carry a very limited number of passengers on each train, each of which is crewed with two members of paid staff. The fares are very expensive as a result, yet sufficient people travel on it to break even.

The Ffestiniog's first class is always the first to fill up, again indicating that there are plenty of people who are prepared to pay a significant fare.

I think some enthusiasts seem to have ideas about pricing that are based more on nostalgia than present day realities. The idea that £20 or £30 per person is too much to pay for a day or even half a day's entertainment is ludicrous. These days, families are prepared to pay significant sums for a day at the likes of Alton Towers.

I spent something like £200 just to get to the Bluebell's recent gala. The Bluebell fare cost was negligible in comparison. Do you really think I would have been put off if the fare were even double what they currently charge?

Yes, putting up the price would mean a drop in the numbers. But it isn't the number of passengers that is important. What is important is to break even, in order for the line to survive. If that means carrying significantly less passengers, paying significantly higher fares, then so be it.

People are prepared to pay for sure, however they also have expectations of receiving value for money. If you have a read of Trip Advisor, the reviews for something like Snowdon MR aren’t always universally positive. In particular, “paid a lot of money, stuffed in a cramped compartment” is a common complaint.

 

[duffield]

The Snowdon Mountain Railway must have significant operating costs, as it can only carry a very limited number of passengers on each train, each of which is crewed with two members of paid staff. The fares are very expensive as a result, yet sufficient people travel on it to break even.

The Ffestiniog's first class is always the first to fill up, again indicating that there are plenty of people who are prepared to pay a significant fare.

I think some enthusiasts seem to have ideas about pricing that are based more on nostalgia than present day realities. The idea that £20 or £30 per person is too much to pay for a day or even half a day's entertainment is ludicrous. These days, families are prepared to pay significant sums for a day at the likes of Alton Towers.

I spent something like £200 just to get to the Bluebell's recent gala. The Bluebell fare cost was negligible in comparison. Do you really think I would have been put off if the fare were even double what they currently charge?

Yes, putting up the price would mean a drop in the numbers. But it isn't the number of passengers that is important. What is important is to break even, in order for the line to survive. If that means carrying significantly less passengers, paying significantly higher fares, then so be it.

The problem is that while some railways, like the two you mention, have a certain status in the tourist industry which allows them to charge premium prices without their passenger numbers collapsing, a fairly "ordinary" heritage railway in unremarkable countryside with no particular attractions along the line, whose main appeal to non-enthusiasts is just being somewhat local and offering a steam train ride may find that any significant increase in fares causes numbers to plummet to a degree that takes the line further from break even, not nearer.

For them the options may be things like moving to more limited opening during only the most popular days and times of year, become almost entirely volunteer only if they have paid staff at present, and to close any intermediate stations where practical. Of course some of those measures could lead to demoralisation of volunteers resulting in a further spiral of decline.

As other posts have suggested, it may just be inevitable that some lines go under, which might have the silver lining that the remaining nearby lines could pick up some of their former business.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Snowdon Mountain is a special case because each train only has one coach.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Must say I worry a lot about the slowness of some preserved lines to catch on to what may well be the “new normal”. By which I mean things like the economic climate and future prospects; changing leisure tastes among the general public; and “green” considerations.

An example - engineering standards for track-work on heritage lines.

For lines like the Bluebell who have a long established reputation for smartness and high standards of work, it may perhaps be defensible to keep things very spick and span (and when out of sight, very modern in concept) when doing renewals. Their magazine has hugely informative “infrastructure” pages and it’s clear that a great deal of precise work is now normal - things like sleeper ends being laid out to millimetre precision, using lasers for alignment.

Even it that case, it does jar a bit when the signal engineers install great quantities of kit requiring huge grey cabinet cases all along the lineside. Suspect a lot of this is driven by people wanting to play with all the tech, rather than any real need … on a 25 mph railway.

Moving to another example, the RVR extension to Robertsbridge. Huge tech-y engineering - of course necessary for things like bridges, and at road level crossings and their signalling. But for track? What they are doing involves bulldozing a roadway all along the route, destroying trees and lineside vegetation - and surely pissing off the objecting locals to an even greater extent! Of course it also destroys the ad-hoc charm of the Col Stephens railway backwater which this line was before it closed. When finished it will look just like Network Rail - or be even more manicured than that.

Is all this really necessary and best practice? Or are all those in charge retired engineers, just doing what they are familiar with and what comes naturally to ex-employees of the big railway? Surely it would have been practicable to extend (on plain line at least) at lower cost and in a less mechanised way, providing lighter trackwork more attuned to the past, and to a slow trundling present-day ride to enjoy the scenery? That approach could also have kept more volunteers happy for longer in doing the work, too.

Of course this extension was long desired; and got the go-ahead (and financial support) just before the recent economic downturn and the various perils now evident in the world. But I fear it will end up as just a millstone of cost for the revived railway, once the inital thrill of opening has passed. If it was proposed now it would have been kicked into touch.

If you haven't got enough volunteers to do it the cheap way then you have little choice if you are set on extending. Finding a gang of 20 people happy to slog away for months installing a new railway will probably not work.

And installing it properly but not having to go out and lift joints every weekend is definitely a positive.

 

[UP13]

People are prepared to pay for sure, however they also have expectations of receiving value for money. If you have a read of Trip Advisor, the reviews for something like Snowdon MR aren’t always universally positive. In particular, “paid a lot of money, stuffed in a cramped compartment” is a common complaint.

I have just returned from a holiday in North Wales and spent a small fortune visiting a number of railways. Snowdon was the only one I regret doing...

 

[Belperpete]

Also, as I pointed out previously, it's not uncommon for charities that run visitor attractions to not break even from admissions. That doesn't inherently make them unsustainable.

There is definitely opportunity to make extra income from secondary spend, such as catering and souvenirs. Unfortunately as the likes of the NT are finding, such spend can be even more affected by people tightening their belts than entrance charges. Additionally, it is more difficult to run catering outlets with volunteers with current food hygiene certification requirements, and running them with paid staff can decrease the profit margin dramatically.

I understand some lines even justify their catering making a loss because it is needed to attract passengers to travel. That sounds like madness to me. At the very least, any catering outlet should at least break even.

At the end of the day, the money has to come from somewhere. No organisation is going to survive making losses indefinitely.

 

[eldomtom2]

I understand some lines even justify their catering making a loss because it is needed to attract passengers to travel. That sounds like madness to me. At the very least, any catering outlet should at least break even.

Well, the question here is, if it does make a loss, if it genuinely attracts enough passengers that it makes up for the money lost. If it does, it's hardly madness...

At the end of the day, the money has to come from somewhere.

As I mentioned, you have to take into account donations when discussing the finances of a charity.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I have just returned from a holiday in North Wales and spent a small fortune visiting a number of railways. Snowdon was the only one I regret doing...

I was staying close to the Ffestiniog Railway last week, with an extended family of six.
We visited the FR three times, but did not use any trains - £49 adult return was too much (we did Snowdon last year at that price, it's £60 this year I think).
Instead we frequented the FR's refreshment facilities and spent maybe £150 on food - and I joined the FR as a member and bought books at the Porthmadog shop.
What could be better than watching the trains at Tan-y-Bwlch?
The trains, in what I assume is the peak month, were nicely busy but by no means full.
The poor weather might have put some people off, but most people would have booked in advance.
But the railway itself looked in good order and was very well presented.
I wonder if the WHR, with fewer trains, is as economic as the FR though?

 

[Belperpete]

If you haven't got enough volunteers to do it the cheap way then you have little choice if you are set on extending. Finding a gang of 20 people happy to slog away for months installing a new railway will probably not work.

As the Ffestiniog found when rebuilding the Welsh Highland, it is much easier to find people prepared to (re)build a railway than to maintain one that you have already got. And it is likewise a lot easier to obtain funding. Extensions and the like generate a lot of enthusiasm and press coverage - the problem is what comes afterwards.

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First class was declassified all weekend because if it had been classified there wouldn’t have been enough seats in some sets. It’s not viable to be repeatedly kicking everyone out of first and making them stand elsewhere or pay the upgrade.

I can understand that, but I think they missed a trick by not at least charging for the Pulmans or the LNW obs. There were plenty of people making a beeline for those coaches as soon as the trains came in.

I was also surprised at the complete absence of any ticket checking the whole day I spent there. Surely having your ticket clipped is part of the heritage experience?

 

[jumble]

If First Class was to be treated as such, presumably First Class Day Rovers would be available? On most, if not all, heritage railway galas I have attended this has not been the case and First Class is open to all.

Not on the Bluebell however

Fares - The Bluebell Railway in Sussex

www.bluebell-railway.com

Upgrades
Rover Tickets are for 3rd class travel only (with the exception of BPRS LIFE Member Rovers which are 1st class). Upgrades to 1st class are available at station booking offices on the day of travel (subject to availability). 1st class Upgrades are £10 per adult and £5 per child.
I agree on most galas this is what happens but without the total confusion outlined in my post 140.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2025 ==

As the Ffestiniog found when rebuilding the Welsh Highland, it is much easier to find people prepared to (re)build a railway than to maintain one that you have already got. And it is likewise a lot easier to obtain funding. Extensions and the like generate a lot of enthusiasm and press coverage - the problem is what comes afterwards.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2025 ==


I can understand that, but I think they missed a trick by not at least charging for the Pulmans or the LNW obs. There were plenty of people making a beeline for those coaches as soon as the trains came in.

I was also surprised at the complete absence of any ticket checking the whole day I spent there. Surely having your ticket clipped is part of the heritage experience?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2025 ==

No ticket checking on Sunday either

 

[158760]

I can understand that, but I think they missed a trick by not at least charging for the Pullmans or the LNW OBO. There were plenty of people making a beeline for those coaches as soon as the trains came in.

I was also surprised at the complete absence of any ticket checking the whole day I spent there. Surely having your ticket clipped is part of the heritage experience?

No ticket checking on Sunday either

The observation car generally doesn’t have a charge anymore due to the fact it tended to be a cash supplement (a card machine not being feasible for the cost). Only around 10% of our tickets booked on the day are paid for with cash. There is also a lack of volunteers to ensure upgrades are paid for, and a few other factors.

The Pullmans were a £15 supplement on the day for a bacon roll in the morning or a slice of cake/cream tea in the afternoon, with a hot drink to go with. Car 54 was also available static in P2 at Sheffield Park with the same options for £10.

Ticket checks should have been in place at the entrance to the platforms at each station - we don’t tend to have staff rostered to check tickets onboard trains. If you have a physical ticket, it will be clipped at this point. We certainly had ticket checks in operation at Sheffield Park on Friday and Saturday at the entrance, and I believe Sunday did too.