How Viable are Preserved Railways?

[eldomtom2]

One thing I did notice when I first started going to heritage railways as an adult was that typically the combination is "some locomotive, and a rake of Mk1s" meaning that realistically, there isn't much difference between the experience once you're in the train.
I had been hoping to see some Mk2s, or pre-nationalisation coaching stock. These days, HSTs are even game. I think a large part of what we see is trying to cash in on a nostalgia for the 1960's, that many people these days simply were not alive to have.
If I were looking at building a new station or had a station that was built specifically "for" the heritage effort, I would seriously be considering a 1980's theme for it.

I think nostalgia is perhaps overestimated as a motive for heritage railway visitors. Besides, plenty of railways have stations restored to pre-1960s condition.

 

[eldomtom2]

I think with the current economic uncertainties, the era when lines publish their timetable leaflet for the full year is coming to an end - it is just too risky. You either over-estimate the demand, and waste money running trains that lose money, or you under-estimate demand and lose potential custom.

The GCR is currently displaying their running days up to November and the SVR up to December. You have to publish running days several months in advance, especially if you want people to pre-book.

 

[MisterSheeps]

smaller percentage of visitors with an immigrant background, is that they identify less with this country's heritage. It is noticeable how few walkers and hikers you encounter with an ethnic background

I agree with the walking bit, having spent all my leisure in the upland parts of Britain, the number of non white people is vanishingly small, but there is an important reason. Most non whites live in urban areas, whilst all upland areas, and heritage railways (Middleton excepted) are not in urban areas. This is an urban / rural divide as much as a white / non white issue. Does an 'offcomer' fit in? Cream tea? I wouldn't eat one myself. Luxury dining eating what? Chicken tikka masala? Probably not! In short, the preserved railway offering may well not be sufficiently appealing to most potential visitors, white or non white, compared to the costs (transport, fares, effort). And don't even talk about 150s; those with medium term memories will remember first generation DMUs not long ago (Manchester), and even feel gratitude when a 156 arrives instead of a 150

 

[HOOVER29]

D9551 and 46045 also in use as due to fire risk only steam in use.

Fire risk & still use steam?

I was there a few years ago when it was baking hot & a class 50 was working the diesel turn.
I did it from Kidderminster to Bridgenorth & return.
On the return we were stopped at Hampton Loade for around 90 mins as the steam engine had set fire to the line side just after Bewdley & the fire brigade was called out

 

[Yew]

There are quite a few heritage railways with some unique and fascinating coaches in current use though. For example, the MHR, the ELR and Peak rail have some very nice examples of wood panelled bar or dining coaches.

There certainly are, but I was at Peak Rail a few weeks ago, and such a carriage was not in use.

Similarly, GCR has a lovely rake with a balcony car, that as far as I understand, doesn't make it out of the sidings unless it's been chartered. I don't think it even made it out for their Winter steam gala, just the normal two rakes of Mk1s.

 

[frankmoh]

It’s incredibly easy to make comments with hindsight, but I feel that looking back from where we are now, it’s clear that some heritage railways overstretched themselves by extending.

The highlight of course still needs to be the train ride, but families and general visitors, particularly those with children, don’t want to spend an hour in a tatty MK1 or MK2 trundling along. A journey of say five miles or so is sufficient, but the coaches, even if they are BR Standards, need to be spotless, with clean vintage moquette and some period advertising etc.

Some railways of course are fortunate with their locations, but I feel long-term it’s the shorter lines with nicely presented stations and rolling stock, such as the K&WVR, Isle of Wight Steam Railway, South Devon, Didcot etc which will have the greatest potential to adapt and thrive to ensure long-term future viability and success.

I feel like some heritage lines are forgetting that they are there to preserve trains and not to simply just run "old trains". I think most of the ones in the Southern Region do this well, but as you said the standards are slipping for some.

 

[frankmoh]

One thing I did notice when I first started going to heritage railways as an adult was that typically the combination is "some locomotive, and a rake of Mk1s" meaning that realistically, there isn't much difference between the experience once you're in the train.
I had been hoping to see some Mk2s, or pre-nationalisation coaching stock. These days, HSTs are even game. I think a large part of what we see is trying to cash in on a nostalgia for the 1960's, that many people these days simply were not alive to have.
If I were looking at building a new station or had a station that was built specifically "for" the heritage effort, I would seriously be considering a 1980's theme for it.

I would love to see the day a Network Southeast heritage railway gets started up. I'm thinking the Bromley North line might get axed some time in the future but I'm wondering if that would happen after the peak of NSE nostalgia dies down.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

I would love to see the day a Network Southeast heritage railway gets started up. I'm thinking the Bromley North line might get axed some time in the future but I'm wondering if that would happen after the peak of NSE nostalgia dies down.

Is there any such thing as 'NSE nostalgia' other than among a limited number of enthusiasts?

 

[frankmoh]

Is there any such thing as 'NSE nostalgia' other than among a limited number of enthusiasts?

465908, Essex Road and Downham Market spring to mind.

Aside from that, it's mostly EMUs... which to my knowledge can't run on any heritage railway right now unless hauled.

 

[UP13]

Is there any such thing as 'NSE nostalgia' other than among a limited number of enthusiasts?

I have NSE nostalgia, and am currently enjoying a book I recently got about it. Having said that NSE only lasted 10 years so it'll literally be a narrow group of people in a specific region at a specific time that'll be nostaligic.

An NSE themed railway or even NSE themed museum would be a non-starter. Having said that a museum with an exhibition on sectorisiarion may work.

 

[kje7812]

Fire risk & still use steam?

I was there a few years ago when it was baking hot & a class 50 was working the diesel turn.
I did it from Kidderminster to Bridgenorth & return.
On the return we were stopped at Hampton Loade for around 90 mins as the steam engine had set fire to the line side just after Bewdley & the fire brigade was called out

It's a balance. If the railway goes all diesel, passenger numbers drop.
No issues with 4930 doing the sole steam turn so far. Back in June, 4930 also didn't have any issues during the very hot weather then. Unfortunately the same can't be said for other members of the steam fleet and you can't use the same loco everyday. Hopefully there will be some decent rain soon.

 

[frankmoh]

I have NSE nostalgia, and am currently enjoying a book I recently got about it. Having said that NSE only lasted 10 years so it'll literally be a narrow group of people in a specific region at a specific time that'll be nostaligic.

An NSE themed railway or even NSE themed museum would be a non-starter. Having said that a museum with an exhibition on sectorisiarion may work.

But remember all of the post-privatisation brands kept on carrying it about on the trains and at stations for a good while after (2004-2007). So some might not remember toothpaste trains but they may remember how all the lampposts used to be red (or perhaps still are red if you commute to Marylebone every day).

 

[eldomtom2]

Incidentally, as a counterpoint to "oh the youth aren't really interested in trains", check out Wplace - it's a site where anyone can draw on a map of the world - and in amongst the expected internet memes, sports clubs, and band logos railways make a surprisingly good showing, especially heritage railways.

 

[Belperpete]

I feel like some heritage lines are forgetting that they are there to preserve trains and not to simply just run "old trains".

The trouble is that preserving trains for the sake of it brings in very little money. It is running the old trains that brings in the public and their money, that pays for the other things to be done.

 

[John Luxton]

I suspect that one reason that preserved railways and other heritage attractions see a much smaller percentage of visitors with an immigrant background, is that they identify less with this country's heritage. It is noticeable how few walkers and hikers you encounter with an ethnic background, for example.

I think that is changing in the last 6 months I have seen an oriental firelady and a signalman who looked Indian on heritage lines. Though perhaps these are two parts of the world where railways are as much part of their heritage as they are ours?

 

[Belperpete]

I agree with the walking bit, having spent all my leisure in the upland parts of Britain, the number of non white people is vanishingly small, but there is an important reason. Most non whites live in urban areas, whilst all upland areas, and heritage railways (Middleton excepted) are not in urban areas. This is an urban / rural divide as much as a white / non white issue.

I would say that the majority of those walking and hiking in the countryside are from urban areas. That is the main point, to escape your urban environment. It doesn't explain why mainly white people seem to feel the need to do it.

I think it is more of a cultural thing. If nobody in your family or social circle does something, the chances that you are going to do it must be very small.

Cultural norms about what you do in your time off vary greatly. The idea of "the weekend off" is something most heavily associated with industrial societies. As is the need to find something to do to fill that time off. Whereas in agricultural societies, the animals don't take a day off, so neither do the people. Everything that needs doing Monday to Friday also needs doing Saturday and Sunday. And what little time off there was, was traditionally largely devoted to church or equivalent.

As a significant proportion of immigrants to this country have come from places with a very different societal background, it is not surprising that their ideas of what to do on their days off vary very differently from traditional British ideas of visiting the countryside and the seaside.

As the cultures integrate, so the ideas will merge.

 

[eldomtom2]

The trouble is that preserving trains for the sake of it brings in very little money. It is running the old trains that brings in the public and their money, that pays for the other things to be done.

Preserving trains for the sake of it also costs a lot less than running them. Considering that most heritage railways are hardly making big profits from their operations...

 

[jumble]

It came as a bit of a shock to me to read about the Bluebell’s financial difficulties. I had assumed that as one of the big players, and with a significant and prosperous catchment area, the Bluebell would be relatively immune to such pressures. However, if the Bluebell is struggling, how are other lines doing?

I have started this thread to try and get an overview of the situation, rather than looking at one particular line. To get the ball rolling, I have looked at the finances of the “big four”: the Bluebell, the NYMR, the SVR and the GCR.

Bluebell
The accounts and chairmen’s pieces in Bluebell News make sobering reading. In a few years, the Bluebell has gone from being a profitable line with a sizeable sum of money on account, to approaching its overdraft limit with the bank concerned about its solvency. The Bluebell has sustained losses over the last 3 years, with a loss of £588k last year, up from £288k in 2023. There could well be a similar half-million loss this year.

NYMR
The North York Moors burnt through over a million of their reserves hoping things would improve. After making another significant loss in 2023 of £633k, they finally took meaningful action in 2024 by cutting trains and revising their fare structure (moves that did not go down well with some on here). The hope was that these changes would allow them to break even in 2024, however, the recently-released accounts show that this was only partially successful, and they made another big loss of £278k in 2024.

SVR
The Severn Valley accounts show they made a similar loss as the NYMR in 2023 of £641k, which they similarly reduced to a £295k loss in 2024. This was in part helped by donations to their Resilience Fund, although I am not convinced that those who donated to this fund were expecting their money would effectively be used to subsidise other peoples' fares. Fortunately the costs of reinstating the embankment slip at Mor Brook are expected to be covered by the insurers and donations from supporters, however, the impact on services will probably have an impact on operating revenue this year.

GCR
The Great Central accounts show they likewise made a similar loss as the NYMR in 2023 of £672k, which they similarly reduced to a £228k loss in 2024, with losses likely to continue until 2028.

A common theme expressed in all the accounts is that the operating environment is “challenging”, and likely to remain so for the foreseeable future. They appear to have gone from being successful, profitable businesses pre-Covid, to making substantial year-on-year losses. A number of them have even had to justify in their accounts why they should still be considered as going concerns. However, at least the NYMR, SVR and GCR have managed to halve their losses.

As the Bluebell Co. Chairman notes, there will doubtless be those who believe the problems to be over-exaggerated, and that the situation can be ridden out. Indeed, as the Bluebell is tabling a half-million loss, some of its members are apparently tabling an AGM motion that more be done to reopen the Ardingley branch!

Now, I am not expecting any of these lines to go bankrupt. They all have plans to meet the immediate losses, such as by selling assets. However, as the Bluebell’s chairman says, no company can sustain such losses in the long-term.

It is clear that preserved railways are having to operate in a very different commercial environment to that of a few years ago. Saving a few hundred pounds here and there isn’t going to make much of a dent in a half-million loss – clearly some quite significant changes are needed. As the Bluebell Chairman notes, some railways have already started to make such changes, such as curtailing train services, reducing days of operation, and revised fare structures (I can’t help feeling that Bluebell members are being prepared for similar measures).

So, how are other lines coping? Are smaller lines faring any better?

My partner and I attended the Bluebell 65 Gala on Sunday and I think they may have missed a trick
They in common with some other galas that I have attended appeared to have declassified First Class
I say appeared because no one seemed to know with some staff saying no idea, some saying no TTIs on duty today, and some saying it was open all day
Most of the first class we saw was pretty full and I strongly suspect that not many had paid the first class supplement of £10.00.

Otherwise
Sunday was not particularly busy and all the trains we went on had spare seats
Unlike almost every other Gala we have been to everything ran pretty much to time
It was a fantastic experience
Weather was good
Bar at Sheffield park was good with plenty of out door seating
Every member of staff we encountered was polite and helpful
£27.00 pp was excellent value as it included first class especially compared with the likes of Ffestiniog where even a normal return is just south of double this.
It is interesting to note that Ffestiniog Bygones weekend was £40.00 in 2022 and is £55 now (37% uplift ) where as a Bluebell rover for Sunday Gala was £23.50 in 2022 and is £27 now
(15 % uplift )





What could they have done better?
Nothing!

 

[158760]

My partner and I attended the Bluebell 65 Gala on Sunday and I think they may have missed a trick
They in common with some other galas that I have attended appeared to have declassified First Class.
I say appeared because no one seemed to know with some staff saying no idea, some saying no TTIs on duty today, and some saying it was open all day
Most of the first class we saw was pretty full and I strongly suspect that not many had paid the first class supplement of £10.00.

First class was declassified all weekend because if it had been classified there wouldn’t have been enough seats in some sets. It’s not viable to be repeatedly kicking everyone out of first and making them stand elsewhere or pay the upgrade.

At Sheffield Park on Friday/Saturday we were informing anybody who asked about first class that it was declassified and they could sit wherever they wanted on the train, so not ideal if other staff didn’t know.

 

[jumble]

First class was declassified all weekend because if it had been classified there wouldn’t have been enough seats in some sets. It’s not viable to be repeatedly kicking everyone out of first and making them stand elsewhere or pay the upgrade.

At Sheffield Park on Friday/Saturday we were informing anybody who asked about first class that it was declassified and they could sit wherever they wanted on the train, so not ideal if other staff didn’t know.

Well all I can say is that the ticket office at Horsted Keynes where we exchanged our tickets had apparently not been told
Also if this is the case it seems really odd that there a poster price list at the ticket office at Sheffield Park stating that first class upgrades were available at £10.00 and that neither the timetable nor the Gala description page nor the online booking form mentioned this which I think is fairly critical information for your customers to have a stress free day out.
Why describe a ticket as third class rover when it is nothing of the sort ?
Not withstanding this it overall we had a superb day out.

 

[158760]

Well all I can say is that the ticket office at Horsted Keynes where we exchanged our tickets had apparently not been told
Also if this is the case it seems really odd that there a poster price list at the ticket office at Sheffield Park stating that first class upgrades were available at £10.00 and that neither the timetable nor the Gala description page nor the online booking form mentioned this which I think is fairly critical information for your customers to have a stress free day out.
Why describe a ticket as third class rover when it is nothing of the sort ?
Not withstanding this it overall we had a superb day out.

Perhaps a message of some sorts on the website stating there are no first class tickets available and a bit of tape over the prices list in the booking office would clarify this? I will pass your feedback on and try to ensure it is acted upon.

 

[NER1621]

I have seen an oriental firelady and a signalman who looked Indian

You mean you saw two non-white British people? “Oriental” and “Indian”??!!

 

[John Luxton]

You mean you saw two non-white British people? “Oriental” and “Indian”??!!

I was trying th emphasise that there is growing diversity amongst the volunteers. Whilst the gent was darker skinned I would not have identified the lady as being any darker than I.

 

[JGurney]

I would say that the majority of those walking and hiking in the countryside are from urban areas. That is the main point, to escape your urban environment.

These days it is more popular among suburban residents rather than inner city ones. The grandchildren of the founders of the working class hiking movement are still hiking, but many of them have experienced upward mobility over the last two generations.

 

[Falcon1200]

They in common with some other galas that I have attended appeared to have declassified First Class

If First Class was to be treated as such, presumably First Class Day Rovers would be available? On most, if not all, heritage railway galas I have attended this has not been the case and First Class is open to all.

 

[Peter Wilde]

Must say I worry a lot about the slowness of some preserved lines to catch on to what may well be the “new normal”. By which I mean things like the economic climate and future prospects; changing leisure tastes among the general public; and “green” considerations.

An example - engineering standards for track-work on heritage lines.

For lines like the Bluebell who have a long established reputation for smartness and high standards of work, it may perhaps be defensible to keep things very spick and span (and when out of sight, very modern in concept) when doing renewals. Their magazine has hugely informative “infrastructure” pages and it’s clear that a great deal of precise work is now normal - things like sleeper ends being laid out to millimetre precision, using lasers for alignment.

Even it that case, it does jar a bit when the signal engineers install great quantities of kit requiring huge grey cabinet cases all along the lineside. Suspect a lot of this is driven by people wanting to play with all the tech, rather than any real need … on a 25 mph railway.

Moving to another example, the RVR extension to Robertsbridge. Huge tech-y engineering - of course necessary for things like bridges, and at road level crossings and their signalling. But for track? What they are doing involves bulldozing a roadway all along the route, destroying trees and lineside vegetation - and surely pissing off the objecting locals to an even greater extent! Of course it also destroys the ad-hoc charm of the Col Stephens railway backwater which this line was before it closed. When finished it will look just like Network Rail - or be even more manicured than that.

Is all this really necessary and best practice? Or are all those in charge retired engineers, just doing what they are familiar with and what comes naturally to ex-employees of the big railway? Surely it would have been practicable to extend (on plain line at least) at lower cost and in a less mechanised way, providing lighter trackwork more attuned to the past, and to a slow trundling present-day ride to enjoy the scenery? That approach could also have kept more volunteers happy for longer in doing the work, too.

Of course this extension was long desired; and got the go-ahead (and financial support) just before the recent economic downturn and the various perils now evident in the world. But I fear it will end up as just a millstone of cost for the revived railway, once the inital thrill of opening has passed. If it was proposed now it would have been kicked into touch.

 

[duffield]

...
Surely it would have been practicable to extend (on plain line at least) at lower cost and in a less mechanised way, providing lighter trackwork more attuned to the past, and to a slow trundling present-day ride to enjoy the scenery? That approach could also have kept more volunteers happy for longer in doing the work, too.

Of course this extension was long desired; and got the go-ahead (and financial support) just before the recent economic downturn and the various perils now evident in the world. But I fear it will end up as just a millstone of cost for the revived railway, once the inital thrill of opening has passed. If it was proposed now it would have been kicked into touch.

Given that the finance was provided externally specifically for this project, doing it at lower cost wouldn't have left the railway with more money. Presumably whoever is financing the extension wanted to see it done as soon as humanly possible especially since it took so very long to get to the point where permission was granted. The high degree of professionalism and serious financial backing involved appeared to be a key factor in getting approval at all, given all the expensive hoops that had to be jumped through and the need for ministerial approval involving compulsory purchase powers.

The fact that it is being built to "gold plated" standards will presumably mean it will need much less attention and expenditure going forward and the railway will be able to spend more on maintaining the existing part of the line, I'm sure there's more than enough there to keep the volunteers happy.

And yes, there is an argument that it may turn out to be a millstone in the future; the NR connection and interchange may turn out not to be a sufficient financial benefit to justify it. But as far as I can see, either it happened pretty much the way it is happening or not at all.

 

[Belperpete]

£27.00 pp was excellent value as it included first class especially compared with the likes of Ffestiniog where even a normal return is just south of double this.
It is interesting to note that Ffestiniog Bygones weekend was £40.00 in 2022 and is £55 now (37% uplift ) where as a Bluebell rover for Sunday Gala was £23.50 in 2022 and is £27 now
(15 % uplift )

I suspect that this is part of the reason why the Bluebell made a half-millon loss last year and could well make a similar loss this year, while the Ffestiniog didn't.

To my mind, if a line is running at a loss, it effectively means that they are subsidising people to travel on it. This is unsustainable. Either there has to be significant cost cutting (and you would need to make quite a few people redundant in order to save half a million each year), or fares need to go up to a level where income matches outgoings.

Unfortunately as well as significant retrenchment in the heritage sector, I suspect that we are also going to see significant fare increases. Some lines, such as the Ffestiniog, have already started this. Some for example have already cut back on member benefits, and changed their fare structures so that those making part journeys pay more. But TBH this kind of thing is just fiddling around the edges, and won't bring in significant extra income. That will only be achieved by increasing the headline fares that the majority of passengers pay.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Heritage railways may benefit from an influx of enthusiasts when main line steam and diesel railtours become difficult if not impossible as ETCS spreads across the national network and lineside signals are removed. The Cambrian has not seen steam since ETCS came in in 2011 (apart from Tornado on test).

 

[simonw]

Heritage railways may benefit from an influx of enthusiasts when main line steam and diesel railtours become difficult if not impossible as ETCS spreads across the national network and lineside signals are removed. The Cambrian has not seen steam since ETCS came in in 2011 (apart from Tornado on test).

I think railtours and heritage lines attract two very different segments of the market.