TRIVIA: Closed railways with the highest line speed

[WestCountry]

I thought the Woodhead route might be a contender, but the speed limit appears to have been only 65mph.

 

[hexagon789]

I thought the Woodhead route might be a contender, but the speed limit appears to have been only 65mph.

Yes it was relatively low and reduced to 60mph in 1968 after passenger services ended.

 

[The exile]

The Midland route north from Swinton via Cudworth?

Not by the time of closure, surely, as one of the reasons was mining subsidence. Edit - hadn’t realised how sudden that was!

 

[Mugby]

Interesting. I'm not sure that the reason for diversion away was ever explained at the time
People refer to the GC London Extension as a lost main line but when I travelled on it, an 'express' was an ex LMS 4-6-0 ambling along on 3 or 4 coaches, with very few fellow passengers, running infrequently.
By contrast, the Midland route via Cudworth saw well loaded long distance full length trains, hauled by 'Peaks' right up until the diversion away. Never gave any impression of being run down, and your details show that the opposite was the policy until the (enforced) end.

The site of the invisible but collapsing viaduct was just south of Sandal and Walton Station, between Oakenshaw and Royston. I travelled the route several times in the early 1980s and I remember wondering why the trains were being put on the Slow lines between Leeds and Cudworth, I remember looking out for anything happening or blocking the Mains but I had no idea exactly what to look for. In the pre-internet days such information wasn't readily avaiable, sadly.

 

[Merle Haggard]

The site of the invisible but collapsing viaduct was just south of Sandal and Walton Station, between Oakenshaw and Royston. I travelled the route several times in the early 1980s and I remember wondering why the trains were being put on the Slow lines between Leeds and Cudworth, I remember looking out for anything happening or blocking the Mains but I had no idea exactly what to look for. In the pre-internet days such information wasn't readily avaiable, sadly.

Thanks - I didn't remember that.
What I do clearly remember - and it might have been over the deep-reballasted section you mentioned - was that somewhere on the Nottingham - Derby - Sheffield route there was a section where the Slow lines noticeably 'switchbacked' up and down but the Fast rail tops remained level. This was achieved by a considerable height of ballast above the formation at some points.
I also remember how slack-infested those routes were; to the extent that, travelling to Sheffield after a long gap, I was caught out by the train arriving at Chesterfield only about 20 minutes after leaving Derby. In the late 1960s it seemed to take about an hour.

 

[Peterthegreat]

The Midland route north from Swinton via Cudworth?

The ruling line speed was 80 mph - with many lower restrictions.

 

[geoffk]

70 mph was sometimes attained on the southern section of the Somerset & Dorset line. Peter Smith is quoted as taking a rebuilt West Country south though Bailey Gate at 85!

 

[hexagon789]

70 mph was sometimes attained on the southern section of the Somerset & Dorset line. Peter Smith is quoted as taking a rebuilt West Country south though Bailey Gate at 85!

The S&D was predominantly 60mph, though had a little bit of 70mph, but I can't remember exactly which section(s).

 

[Mugby]

If I remember correctly, the Cudworth route was used not only by Leeds trains but also those for York and the north for a while, these continuing via Castleford. The main disadvantage of this route was that it didn't serve Wakefield.

Yes, that's correct, trains to York took the line from Altofts Junction to Burton Salmon although some went via the Swinton & Knottingley route making a very useful stop at Pontefract.

Regarding Sheffield to Leeds, in the early 1980s, some expresses ran non-stop taking just under 55mins., some made just one stop at Rotherham Masborough which added an extre 2-3 mins. However, some did actually call at Wakefield Westgate which involved a tortuous crawl through six junctions at Wakefield, none being more than 20mph and added almost an extra 10mins. journey time.

 

[Rob F]

Would the GWR's Cheltenham to Stratford-upon-Avon line have been a contender?

 

[hexagon789]

Would the GWR's Cheltenham to Stratford-upon-Avon line have been a contender?

90mph between Honeybourne and Stratford-upon-Avon according to the 1961 Gloucester Section WTT.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Yes, that's correct, trains to York took the line from Altofts Junction to Burton Salmon although some went via the Swinton & Knottingley route making a very useful stop at Pontefract.

Regarding Sheffield to Leeds, in the early 1980s, some expresses ran non-stop taking just under 55mins., some made just one stop at Rotherham Masborough which added an extre 2-3 mins. However, some did actually call at Wakefield Westgate which involved a tortuous crawl through six junctions at Wakefield, none being more than 20mph and added almost an extra 10mins. journey time.

The unfortunate thing about these calls (apart from Masbro') was that there was no details about them in the LMR timetable.
The 1960s LMR TTs that I bought back in their day pretty much ignore Sheffield to Skipton - 'nothing to do with us mate, that's Eastern Region'.
Table 180, St Pancras to Sheffield, Summer 1962, has the following off-Region stations and timings at the bottom; Rotherham (Masborough), Cudworth, Normanton, Leeds City and Bradford Forster Square. Presumably Cudworth for the ex Midland Railway connection to Barnsley; but Normanton?
A footnote refers to 'for complete service between ... ' but only to LMR services - no mention of North of Sheffield (but I suppose it was grudging to include Sheffield and not expire at Horn's Bridge ).

 

[Dr Hoo]

I would think that the clear winner was the ‘catch pit’ at the foot of the cable worked inclines up to the Cromford & High Peak line. After the two inclines (1:8 and 1:9 gradients) were combined there was a runaway and it was calculated that it would have been travelling at over 100mph when it piled up spectacularly, with wagons ‘flying’ considerable distances. To mitigate future incidents a central catch pit was constructed, accessed via runaway points, to bring errant wagons to a ‘safe’ and almost instant halt in a straight line.

I don’t think that there have been any other explicit >100mph nominations.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I would think that the clear winner was the ‘catch pit’ at the foot of the cable worked inclines up to the Cromford & High Peak line. After the two inclines (1:8 and 1:9 gradients) were combined there was a runaway and it was calculated that it would have been travelling at over 100mph when it piled up spectacularly, with wagons ‘flying’ considerable distances. To mitigate future incidents a central catch pit was constructed, accessed via runaway points, to bring errant wagons to a ‘safe’ and almost instant halt in a straight line.

I don’t think that there have been any other explicit >100mph nominations.

There was mention on this forum some time ago of an atmospheric railway at a hotel in Ireland where the 'loco'- a simple, light wagon with an attachment into the vacuum pipe - was set into motion without its coach being attached. Assuming uniform acceleration and using the time taken from start to inevitable destruction and the distance involved, the final speed could well have been well over 100 mph. I wish I could find the posts; probably on a thread about Brunel's own atmospheric trains.

In the days when the CH&P was open I did explore the catch pit. It was very dark and damp (unsurprisingly) but there seemed to be only a small amount of rubbish/detritus in it, disappointingly to me, no very compressed ancient PO wagon.

 

[brad465]

What was the linespeed of the HS1 connection between Southfleet and Fawkham Junction? AIUI it's technically mothballed rather than closed but it was used to store withdrawn Eurostar sets at one point and I'm fairly sure it's got sleepers chained across the rails at one end.

65-70mph through Fawkham jct towards HS1, then 80mph on the straight up to where cab signalling began. The speed maybe higher after that within the cab signalling area, however given there is another prominent curve before joining the current HS1 alignment, I wouldn't be surprised if 80mph is the definite max there.

 

[Dr Hoo]

In the days when the CH&P was open I did explore the catch pit. It was very dark and damp (unsurprisingly) but there seemed to be only a small amount of rubbish/detritus in it, disappointingly to me, no very compressed ancient PO wagon.

There are the remains of at least one wagon, which I’ve seen. Similar photographs visible on Google images, but copyright or licenceable.

Anyway, the point was that the pit was designed and built for >100mph, not that it was necessarily used at that speed or had any ‘proof’ left in situ.

 

[Rescars]

There was mention on this forum some time ago of an atmospheric railway at a hotel in Ireland where the 'loco'- a simple, light wagon with an attachment into the vacuum pipe - was set into motion without its coach being attached. Assuming uniform acceleration and using the time taken from start to inevitable destruction and the distance involved, the final speed could well have been well over 100 mph. I wish I could find the posts; probably on a thread about Brunel's own atmospheric trains.

I think you may be referring to an incident on the Dalkey Atmospheric line. According to Wikipedia the average speed achieved by the runaway was 84 mph - not bad for the 1840s! This line was quite a success - atmospheric working carried on for ten years.

 

[MisterSheeps]

Anyone interested in the Midland line from Wath to Normanton might want to look at 'Milepost361', downloadable from the Railway Performance Society, which has an article by Noel Proudlock who was responsible for passenger service planning in the area. He describes, and timed trial runs, with HSTs doing 83mph at times, and planned 35 minute Leeds - Sheffield times, and remarks that there were several TSRs, including Chevet, which could be fixed, along with junction improvements, and multiple aspect signalling. Ultimately, what did for the route was a desire to reduce costs by closing *something*, and the arrival of the new Selby diversion, so that NE - SW traffic could avoid the Swinton & Knottingley and go via Doncaster in the same time, while freight could go to Healey Mills, not Stourton, while the Midland route could avoid further maintenance envisaged by a planned NCB super pit at Houghton, and nothing going NW of Leeds. History shows some of this as regional bias and flawed thinking ...

 

[Dr Hoo]

History shows some of this as regional bias and flawed thinking ...

This perhaps misses out that the sectors were just being established and taking strategic service planning and investment decisions away from regions.

I am not clear what (or whose) the ‘flawed thinking’ was.

 

[MisterSheeps]

I am not clear what (or whose) the ‘flawed thinking’ was.

Best to read the article, but the development of Healey Mills, essentially a white elephant, at the expense of Stourton, now the container depot for Leeds, with tortuous access from the Doncaster - Wakefield route. A belief that everything NW of Leeds would be closed. A regional ER bias to prefer ex GN & L&Y lines and close the Midland lines. Thinking that coal extraction would render the Midland route unusable.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Best to read the article, but the development of Healey Mills, essentially a white elephant, at the expense of Stourton, now the container depot for Leeds, with tortuous access from the Doncaster - Wakefield route. A belief that everything NW of Leeds would be closed. A regional ER bias to prefer ex GN & L&Y lines and close the Midland lines. Thinking that coal extraction would render the Midland route unusable.

It appears that one has to be a paid-up member of the Railway Performance Society to access the Archive and specifically the article in question.

Anyway, most of this stuff doesn’t seem to relate to high speed lines, let alone the ‘highest’ speed, so I’ll leave it there, thanks.

 

[30907]

85mph was the default SR limit for loco hauled passenger trains outside the London Suburban Area. This extended on the Plymouth route as far as Bridestowe, though I very much doubt any train reached that speed on the section that is still closed - maybe an Up train from Okehampton to Coleford Jn might have done

 

[JKF]

The answer is of course the test track for the RTV-31 hovertrain in Cambridgeshire which was built anticipating speeds of 300mph. In practice they only achieved just over 100mph because only four miles of the proposed 20 mile test route was built. Internationally I suspect it would be the track for the French Aerotrain.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Good one. But arguably not a "rail-way" as per the thread title?

 

[Merle Haggard]

I realise the OP specified 'closed lines' but what about lines that have lost their 'mainline' status but are still open?
I travelled on the 'Belfast Boat Express' from Liverpool Central to Preston towards the end of steam, and this tore along what is now Merseyrail. A few years earlier, the elusive Bank Hall 'Jubilee's had powered Liverpool - Glasgow trains along the route. Although I didn't experience it, there were tales of high speed runs from Birkenhead to Chester in th dying days of steam - again, now a Merseyrail line.

 

[sad1e]

I realise the OP specified 'closed lines' but what about lines that have lost their 'mainline' status but are still open?

I think this subject deserves it's own thread , it's a bit off topic here.

 

[Grumpy]

Anyone interested in the Midland line from Wath to Normanton might want to look at 'Milepost361', downloadable from the Railway Performance Society, which has an article by Noel Proudlock who was responsible for passenger service planning in the area. He describes, and timed trial runs, with HSTs doing 83mph at times, and planned 35 minute Leeds - Sheffield times, and remarks that there were several TSRs, including Chevet, which could be fixed, along with junction improvements, and multiple aspect signalling. Ultimately, what did for the route was a desire to reduce costs by closing *something*, and the arrival of the new Selby diversion, so that NE - SW traffic could avoid the Swinton & Knottingley and go via Doncaster in the same time, while freight could go to Healey Mills, not Stourton, while the Midland route could avoid further maintenance envisaged by a planned NCB super pit at Houghton, and nothing going NW of Leeds. History shows some of this as regional bias and flawed thinking ...

I don't understand this. The decision to concentrate West Yorkshire freight on Healey Mills was made in the early 1960's by the North East Region. Well before HSTs or the Selby diversion were thought of. Why would the transfer of NE-SW services through Doncaster rather than Pontefract affect the Cudworth route?

 

[Peterthegreat]

I don't understand this. The decision to concentrate West Yorkshire freight on Healey Mills was made in the early 1960's by the North East Region. Well before HSTs or the Selby diversion were thought of. Why would the transfer of NE-SW services through Doncaster rather than Pontefract affect the Cudworth route?

The main reason is that it took half (or thereabouts) the number of trains off the Cudworth route making investment in the Midland route less important.

 

[Taunton]

But going back to the point about linespeed, the GWR didn't have one on its four primary mainlines. Postwar it was 80mph on the GWML, but 85mph between certain locations for selected trains so permitted (according to a postwar Sectional Appendix) but by the late-50s it was back to 'the speed may be as high as is necessary to maintain the schedule'. I believe the blanket 90mph was instituted from 1960 and lasted until the double Class 37 trials later that decade when 100mph was permitted in two places.

The Western speed reduction to 90mph was principally due to the 4-axle D800 Warships, which could develop a roll at high speed that was felt concerning. Notably their immediate predecessors, the 6-axle North British D600 Warships, were extremely stable at high speed, but seemed to lack to power to get up there. Even 90 was then considered too much for a D800, and they were further knocked back to 80. Meanwhile it had long been a point of honour for the Castle on Up Cheltenham Spa Express to get over 90, with occasional reports of 100, between Swindon and Paddington. It was a lightweight train for a Western express, commonly only 7 carriages, and a nice racing ground. Another point on the Western for very high speed was the 1 in 100 down Chipping Campden bank, between Oxford and Worcester.

The GCR London line unfortunately built island platforms at every intermediate station, with the running lines splayed around them, which thus made it not suitable for sustained high speed running.

There were several options in the 1960s between Sheffield and Leeds/York, not only chosen by line speed but also which stations to serve, plus significant colliery slacks. It was determined the Cudworth route would be the main one, and it was all rebuilt with CWR and modern signals. No sooner done than significant and unexpected multiple mining subsidences were encountered, most effectively dealt with by abandoning it for another of the old alternatives.

In Scotland the 75 overall limit was raised to 90, indeed for the WCML but driven initially by the new Edinburgh-Glasgow "push-pull" high speed service, which began in May 1971. Yet another service where its very knowledgeable crews would get up to 100 towards the end of the run, which at least initially still had semaphore signalling east of Falkirk.

 

[hexagon789]

In Scotland the 75 overall limit was raised to 90, indeed for the WCML but driven initially by the new Edinburgh-Glasgow "push-pull" high speed service, which began in May 1971. Yet another service where its very knowledgeable crews would get up to 100 towards the end of the run, which at least initially still had semaphore signalling east of Falkirk.

The Edinburgh & Glasgow was actually raised to 100 rather than 90 Glasgow to Falkirk, but as you rightly said the eastern side had semaphore signalling still such that it was still limited to 75mph except for the push-pull trains which because of their disc brakes were permitted 90mph.