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Just curious about which closed routes had the fastest trains. Local to me we have:
The Great Central main line. There are numerous reports of trains achieving 90mph + between Loughborough and Nottingham
The Midland line between Nottingham and Melton which was, I believe, 90mph max all the way from London Road Junction in Nottingham to Melton Junction.
Others that I know less about but may be in the running are the section of the ECML that was bypassed by the Selby deviation or the Glenfarg route in Scotland.
Just curious about which closed routes had the fastest trains. Local to me we have:
The Great Central main line. There are numerous reports of trains achieving 90mph + between Loughborough and Nottingham
The Midland line between Nottingham and Melton which was, I believe, 90mph max all the way from London Road Junction in Nottingham to Melton Junction.
Others that I know less about but may be in the running are the section of the ECML that was bypassed by the Selby deviation or the Glenfarg route in Scotland.
Just curious about which closed routes had the fastest trains. Local to me we have:
The Great Central main line. There are numerous reports of trains achieving 90mph + between Loughborough and Nottingham
The Midland line between Nottingham and Melton which was, I believe, 90mph max all the way from London Road Junction in Nottingham to Melton Junction.
Others that I know less about but may be in the running are the section of the ECML that was bypassed by the Selby deviation or the Glenfarg route in Scotland.
The line through Forfar to Kinnaber Jn must be quite high up (though probably not above 75mph). When did “line speed” in general become “a thing” -as opposed to specific speed restrictions on places like the Morpeth curve. For a long time the limiting factor on “normal” lines would have been the train not the track. Speedometers are relative newcomers on locomotives anyway.
The line through Forfar to Kinnaber Jn must be quite high up (though probably not above 75mph). When did “line speed” in general become “a thing” -as opposed to specific speed restrictions on places like the Morpeth curve. For a long time the limiting factor on “normal” lines would have been the train not the track. Speedometers are relative newcomers on locomotives anyway.
What was the linespeed of the HS1 connection between Southfleet and Fawkham Junction? AIUI it's technically mothballed rather than closed but it was used to store withdrawn Eurostar sets at one point and I'm fairly sure it's got sleepers chained across the rails at one end.
Just also to point out that the old Sectional Appendices (at least the LMS/LMR ones) showed where speed restrictions applied between locations, with a blank for when none applied. For those not familiar, the SA listed every section of line in vertical table form showing miles/chaains signal boxes, stations etc and showed where a speed restriction applied (sometimes different by direction). Presumably drivers' knowledge had to include this, although I have seen a line side photo where there's a sign facing oncoming trains that reads 'SLOW DOWN'. I can't find any reference to the overall speed limit, though, and I've never heard of steam locos have maximum permitted speeds. Very likely it was as you suggest, limited by the physical performance..
The line through Forfar to Kinnaber Jn must be quite high up (though probably not above 75mph). When did “line speed” in general become “a thing” -as opposed to specific speed restrictions on places like the Morpeth curve. For a long time the limiting factor on “normal” lines would have been the train not the track. Speedometers are relative newcomers on locomotives anyway.
It was indeed 75mph on the Strathmore line pre-closure, and that was continuous from diverging at Stanley Junction all the way to Kinnaber Junction - the only intermediate restriction was for Forfar Station and pretty much everything stopped there postwar.
Perth to Forfar was one of the Scottish Region's few mile-a-minute bookings in the 1960s.
And yes, the ScR had a 75mph ceiling throughout until 1970 when the WCML was raised to 90 in Scotland.
Just also to point out that the old Sectional Appendices (at least the LMS/LMR ones) showed where speed restrictions applied between locations, with a blank for when none applied.
I have an LNER Southern area sectional appendix, though it is in a different format to what I am used to and I'm not very good at reading it. There seems to be a default speed limit that applies unless stated otherwise, but I can't find what it is.
I have an LNER Southern area sectional appendix, though it is in a different format to what I am used to and I'm not very good at reading it. There seems to be a default speed limit that applies unless stated otherwise, but I can't find what it is.
Curious, isn't it?
I have LNER combined General/Sectional Appendices. The SA has the individual section speeds (shown as 'Speed limits and speed restrictions' - not sure of the difference!) - but in the General Appendix there's entries under'"Speed Limits and Speed Restrictions on running lines' which, again, does not have the overall limit but lists blanket ones in particular circumstances. These include 'when exchanging Train Staff or token by Hand' and 'on single lines when passing through loop connections'. However, the interesting one is 'When passing over water troughs - 70 m.p.h.' which strongly implies that a speed higher than 70 is otherwise permitted.
Possibly, not being able to find any reference to overall speed limit might imply that there wasn't one.
The line through Forfar to Kinnaber Jn must be quite high up (though probably not above 75mph). When did “line speed” in general become “a thing” -as opposed to specific speed restrictions on places like the Morpeth curve. For a long time the limiting factor on “normal” lines would have been the train not the track. Speedometers are relative newcomers on locomotives anyway.
The route between Falkirk and Kinnaber was in theory a very fast route, being relatively flat and well graded. Unfortunately, until the early 1970s, Scottish Region had a blanket maximum speed of 75mph. However, I can't see an A4 on an Aberdeen - Glasgow Buchanan Street 3 hour service plodding through Strathmore at 75mph maximum...
Curious, isn't it?
I have LNER combined General/Sectional Appendices. The SA has the individual section speeds (shown as 'Speed limits and speed restrictions' - not sure of the difference!) - but in the General Appendix there's entries under'"Speed Limits and Speed Restrictions on running lines' which, again, does not have the overall limit but lists blanket ones in particular circumstances. These include 'when exchanging Train Staff or token by Hand' and 'on single lines when passing through loop connections'. However, the interesting one is 'When passing over water troughs - 70 m.p.h.' which strongly implies that a speed higher than 70 is otherwise permitted.
Possibly, not being able to find any reference to overall speed limit might imply that there wasn't one.
90mph was the official maximum on the ECML under the LNER, certainly in the late-1930s AFAIUI - it's mentioned in a few official sources I've seen such as those referring to the speeds of the new 'Streamliner' set (I.e. The Silver Jubilee) and subsequently for the record run of Mallard where it is stated that the ordinary permitted speed at the point of Mallard's record was 90mph.
Generally 90 seems to have been taken as the ceiling prewar, though not always officially marked as such. Even the best trains didn't often need to achieve such speeds to keep schedule.
But going back to the point about linespeed, the GWR didn't have one on its four primary mainlines. Postwar it was 80mph on the GWML, but 85mph between certain locations for selected trains so permitted (according to a postwar Sectional Appendix) but by the late-50s it was back to 'the speed may be as high as is necessary to maintain the schedule'. I believe the blanket 90mph was instituted from 1960 and lasted until the double Class 37 trials later that decade when 100mph was permitted in two places.
Only the LNER seems to have had an official concept of linespeed or signing all speed restrictions (from the late-30s). The LMS, GWR and SR seem to have only signed significant reductions, junctions with different diverging speeds or in locations with no suitable identifying landmarks.
Postwar, BR adopted the LNER system of marking all speed restrictions from the late-50s but even this century there are/were some older "end of speed restriction" signs on some rural routes, as opposed to signs showing what the higher permitted speed actually was.
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The route between Falkirk and Kinnaber was in theory a very fast route, being relatively flat and well graded. Unfortunately, until the early 1970s, Scottish Region had a blanket maximum speed of 75mph. However, I can't see an A4 on an Aberdeen - Glasgow Buchanan Street 3 hour service plodding through Strathmore at 75mph maximum...
They regularly touched 80mph and even 90 wasn't uncommon, but the schedules could be achieved without exceeding 75mph - 153mi in 3 hours is only 51mph.
90mph was the official maximum on the ECML under the LNER, certainly in the late-1930s AFAIUI - it's mentioned in a few official sources I've seen such as those referring to the speeds of the new 'Streamliner' set (I.e. The Silver Jubilee) and subsequently for the record run of Mallard where it is stated that the ordinary permitted speed at the point of Mallard's record was 90mph.
Generally 90 seems to have been taken as the ceiling prewar, though not always officially marked as such. Even the best trains didn't often need to achieve such speeds to keep schedule.
But going back to the point about linespeed, the GWR didn't have one on its four primary mainlines. Postwar it was 80mph on the GWML, but 85mph between certain locations for selected trains so permitted (according to a postwar Sectional Appendix) but by the late-50s it was back to 'the speed may be as high as is necessary to maintain the schedule'. I believe the blanket 90mph was instituted from 1960 and lasted until the double Class 37 trials later that decade when 100mph was permitted in two places.
Only the LNER seems to have had an official concept of linespeed or signing all speed restrictions (from the late-30s). The LMS, GWR and SR seem to have only signed significant reductions, junctions with different diverging speeds or in locations with no suitable identifying landmarks.
Postwar, BR adopted the LNER system of marking all speed restrictions from the late-50s but even this century there are/were some older "end of speed restriction" signs on some rural routes, as opposed to signs showing what the higher permitted speed actually was.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
They regularly touched 80mph and even 90 wasn't uncommon, but the schedules could be achieved without exceeding 75mph - 153mi in 3 hours is only 51mph.
Switching modes of transport, there was no National Speed Limit on UK roads for decades before 1967. Up to that point, the roadsign which does a great impersonation of a lower quadrant banner repeater showing clear meant no speed restriction rather than 70 mph max.
Switching modes of transport, there was no National Speed Limit on UK roads for decades before 1967. Up to that point, the roadsign which does a great impersonation of a lower quadrant banner repeater showing clear meant no speed restriction rather than 70 mph max.
Indeed, I remember my Grandfather saying he used to drive to the Isle of Wight in the summer (despite working for BR!) and would happily cruise at 100mph+ going down south overnight.
Switching modes of transport, there was no National Speed Limit on UK roads for decades before 1967. Up to that point, the roadsign which does a great impersonation of a lower quadrant banner repeater showing clear meant no speed restriction rather than 70 mph max.
The report on the accident at Riccall Turnhead AHB crossing in 1980 says that the line there, the old Selby-York one, was signalled for 100 mph. No mention is made for any reduction over the crossing.
I don't know what the speed limit was on the Leeds Northern line from Harrogate to Northallerton (or Thirsk) but it was a double track main line used by express passenger trains so presumably reasonably high. Hopefully there is someone in the know.
A lot of mining subsidence along there, but wasn't it reinstated as a main line during the 70s because of subsidence on the S&K route? No idea of speed limits.
The line had been chosen as the future high speed route from Sheffield to Leeds, the section between Swinton and Cudworth had been upgraded will all CWR and deep ballasted, speeds increased and also re-signalled with colour light signals albeit still controlled by manual boxes pending full completion of the route. HSTs ran on the route for several years when they were introduced.
Then disaster struck when the long buried stone arched Chevet Viaduct began to collapse inside it's infill. Various attempts were made by BR to rectify the problem but to no avail. Finally the DfT wouldn't grant the finance to allow rebuilding of the embankment and the Fast lines closed between Cudwoth and Royston in 1984. The Up and Down Slows between those points were then re-named Up and Down Mains.
The Up and Down Mains between Swinton and Cudwoth closed in 1987 and all the work which had been done on that section was wasted.
All that remains today is the freight only single line to the glassworks at Cudwoth, most of which was originally the Up Slow.
The New North Mainline ( Northolt jn - Friars jn) once had quite a high speed limit if i remember correctly, i think it was 80 or 85. All that remains of that now is a rusty single line to carry the Northolt binliner with the majority of it having been lifted.
The line had been chosen as the future high speed route from Sheffield to Leeds, the section between Swinton and Cudworth had been upgraded will all CWR and deep ballasted, speeds increased and also re-signalled with colour light signals albeit still controlled by manual boxes pending full completion of the route. HSTs ran on the route for several years when they were introduced.
Then disaster struck when the long buried stone arched Chevet Viaduct began to collapse inside it's infill. Various attempts were made by BR to rectify the problem but to no avail. Finally the DfT wouldn't grant the finance to allow rebuilding of the embankment and the Fast lines closed between Cudwoth and Royston in 1984. The Up and Down Slows between those points were then re-named Up and Down Mains.
The Up and Down Mains between Swinton and Cudwoth closed in 1987 and all the work which had been done on that section was wasted.
All that remains today is the freight only single line to the glassworks at Cudwoth, most of which was originally the Up Slow.
If I remember correctly, the Cudworth route was used not only by Leeds trains but also those for York and the north for a while, these continuing via Castleford. The main disadvantage of this route was that it didn't serve Wakefield.
Some Italian lines near the French border at Ventimiglia may have allowed 160-200kmh in places. I know the new alignments do, however lines in tunnels are just soo boring.
Switching modes of transport, there was no National Speed Limit on UK roads for decades before 1967. Up to that point, the roadsign which does a great impersonation of a lower quadrant banner repeater showing clear meant no speed restriction rather than 70 mph max.
There's still no National Speed Limit on the Isle of Man, so that road sign retains its original meaning there. Interestingly you can drive there from age 16, though for one year after passing your driving test you must display R plates and not exceed 50 mph.
I don't know what the speed limit was on the Leeds Northern line from Harrogate to Northallerton (or Thirsk) but it was a double track main line used by express passenger trains so presumably reasonably high. Hopefully there is someone in the know.
The line had been chosen as the future high speed route from Sheffield to Leeds, the section between Swinton and Cudworth had been upgraded will all CWR and deep ballasted, speeds increased and also re-signalled with colour light signals albeit still controlled by manual boxes pending full completion of the route. HSTs ran on the route for several years when they were introduced.
Then disaster struck when the long buried stone arched Chevet Viaduct began to collapse inside it's infill. Various attempts were made by BR to rectify the problem but to no avail. Finally the DfT wouldn't grant the finance to allow rebuilding of the embankment and the Fast lines closed between Cudwoth and Royston in 1984. The Up and Down Slows between those points were then re-named Up and Down Mains.
The Up and Down Mains between Swinton and Cudwoth closed in 1987 and all the work which had been done on that section was wasted.
All that remains today is the freight only single line to the glassworks at Cudwoth, most of which was originally the Up Slow.
Interesting. I'm not sure that the reason for diversion away was ever explained at the time
People refer to the GC London Extension as a lost main line but when I travelled on it, an 'express' was an ex LMS 4-6-0 ambling along on 3 or 4 coaches, with very few fellow passengers, running infrequently.
By contrast, the Midland route via Cudworth saw well loaded long distance full length trains, hauled by 'Peaks' right up until the diversion away. Never gave any impression of being run down, and your details show that the opposite was the policy until the (enforced) end.
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