• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

NR plans to axe 800 signalboxes

Status
Not open for further replies.

Old Timer

Established Member
Joined
24 Aug 2009
Messages
3,702
Location
On a plane somewhere at 35,000
Fans of large centres will always try to convince people that there can never be a shut down.

I remember a similar conversation after being involved with the commissioning of an IECC.

The signalling fraternity were absolutely convinced beyond doubt that there could never be a failure and laughed at my question.

A short time later, yes, a complete power failure shut everything down.

As a direct consequence of the "power failure that could never be" subsequent IECCs had hard track plans and modern ones tend to have repeater boards - so that when it all goes wrong you can use magnets and bits of paper !

Soon after the Merseyrail IECC opened it suffered from a major failure which led to the total shutdown of the system.

The critical issue is what level of contingency do you have ?

Local operating panels have their place but depend upon having staff to operate them, more and more operating response staff have no signalling background to speak of.

It is a question of balance but I think we will not see that in the UK until we suffer the inevitable at some point in the future and the debate will centre on the costs "saved" against the costs incurred and the ongoing remediation.

BR stepped back from large centralised centres for a variety of reasosn. They say Industry has a corporate memory of about 15 years before it has to relearn the lessons the hard way again.

I can thoroughly recommend Trevor Kleitz's book "Lessons from Disasters". Unfortunately the system will not let me post website links (again ! :roll: ) so I cannot link to the site. You will have to Google it I am afraid.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Metroland

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2005
Messages
3,212
Location
Midlands
I think there can always be an argument about putting too many eggs into one basket, no doubt the same was said about many major stations when they were converted from several mechanical boxes into a large signalling panel.

A major failure in any area can potentially cause problems, but the advantage of centralisation is widespread disruption can at least be co-ordinated.

The key is to design the systems so there is always backups and a certain amount of system redundancy. Obviously major power signal boxes have standby generators and UPS. It's not to say there are never large failures, there are and always will be. But if you look at the reliability of very large current installations; it's pretty good. Certainly the benefits of centralisation and cost reductions outstrip the odd occasion where the system might fall over.

On the point of the signalling supply situation, I think it's fair to say there could be some potential problems. However, if you look into the amount of work going on, right now, which tends to be a rolling programme, there's no reason given the time scale very significant changes cannot be made.

P7 shows transfer dates to the WMCC, it's more or less on target.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...ope/west midlands and chilterns rus scope.pdf


Significant work is also going on with the EMCC, and is more on less on course.

Work is also going on with the Ely-Norwich, Shrewsbury-Crewe resignalling, East Kent, Basingstoke-Exeter, Cambrian ERTMS, east Suffolk, work around east Manchester, and significant work in South Wales, and between Swindon and Paddington.

Once these tasks have been completed, it's not impossible that work can move onto other areas.
 

a good off

Member
Joined
2 Jul 2010
Messages
372
Location
Control Room
So signal boxes on the Fen line could close then, ie Kings Lynn, Magdalen Road/Watlington, Downham Market and Littleport with their areas coming under a panel in a extended Cambridge PSB signalbox?

As well as the line to Ipswich and Norwich as well?

Thinking back to the time I stood watching the box at Ely Dock Jn being hacked apart by a bulldozer, I'm amazed (and pleased) that places like Littleport are still in business. A lot will hinge on the success of the modular schemes to resignal the Norwich-Ely and Shrewsbury-Crewe lines next year.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
21,920
Location
Mold, Clwyd
How long before the "Stockport 5" manual boxes go?
Wasn't Manchester South due to supersede them?

Despite the anachronism of these boxes still working after the £8B WCML upgrade, you don't often hear he words "signalling problem at Stockport" on NRES.
 

moggie

Member
Joined
2 Jan 2010
Messages
426
Location
West Midlands
Where to start?

Well first of all the NR plan for 15 signalling centres is just an update of Railtrack's 9 Network Mangement Centres of 10 to 15 years ago. If I recall correctly WMSC at Saltley was the only structure they managed to build which then stood devoid of signalling equipment until years later when Invensys put Coventry in as part of WCML works. Of course other works by Invensys are gradually being brought online into WMSC under NR stewardship as part of various resignalling schemes but it's taken time.

The simple fact is that even relatively straightforward transfer of control and monitoring to one of these centres involves a significant effort in terms of specification, tendering and design let alone swapping the software over on the big day (the easy bit). This is without any change to the lineside signalling or the interlocking controls - albeit alteration to the interlocking interface may still be needed taking up critical resource.

These projects are taking up highly skilled critical design and testing resource, (often in the case of the MMI e.g. Westcad, MCS or IECC, equipment specific companies and their respective engineers where open tender is complicated by the fact that equipment and coding is a single source supplier (doesn't stop NR commercial letting the contract elsewhere mind). One can imagine the effort required where wholesale resignalling is proposed. Incidentally, VDU MMI's are often specified to replace Nx panel controls simply because of their space saving qualities when trying to shoe horn wider area of control into existing buildings. Of course these centres have normally been built with future expansion of their control area in mind but not generally for major expansion of Nx Panel control areas.

Another factor to consider is where the effort in signalling design is spent, and the availability of the necessary skill / experience is available. For example in the scheme development GRIP process NR will go through numerous iterations before a single option is chosen which can then be worked up into supplier specifications and documents for ITT. Typically for a large scheme you are talking years. Budget provison also has to be made and of course the resignalling component has to be dovetailed into other related engineering activities; Pway, OLE, E&P and comms design. Long term posession blockades also have to be secured. So with all this is in place, the signalling suppliers are invited to tender. There will be numerous factors determining the outcome of the tender return and award process. OT has mentioned sufficient experienced staff to complete the tender but commercial staff can also be thin on the ground if overwhelmed by tender returns to NR and overseas customers in a given slot. Questions are raised, often NR require pretty detailed stageing and methods proposals as part of the tender submission requiring input from engineers also engaged on design of projects, so the process of tendering is less than smooth on an engineering level. Often commercial negotiations rumble on until Preferred Bidder is announced but of course the major posession plans do not get changed - result - succesful tenderer get squeezed on the timescale and has to start fire fighting on the design front from the word go by supplementing the planned resorce in an attempt to reduce the design timescale. Often, design of sub components / sub contractors of the project require sub contracting arrangements to be lined up and formalised. So typically, you have a team engaged on the MMI Control and Monitoring system, a team engaged on the interlocking - both highly skilled activites, another team engaged on the lineside equipement design - highly dependent on completion of site survey works and finally interdiciplinary interface design activities which potentially affect everything else.

This has the effect of concentrating design resource creating peaks and troughs and is often critical where the skill set for the complex work is limited by numbers of people available, who have appropriate competence certs and who are free from their last project. Where the troughs in workload cannot be filled staff are have been offloaded, compounding staff shortages when a project is finally secured (and then they come in pairs like busses after a long wait). This has happened repeatedly since BR was abolished with gaps in the national workload caused by political organisational decisions and internal re-organisations / budget squeezes withing Railtrack / NR. This in turn has lead to skill shortages in some area of design (and elswhere) as good junior staff suffer at the hands of skimming excercises leading to the shortage of experienced staff in the years to come. Often the more capable are creamed off into management posts or 'poached' by competitors willing to pay the silver dollar. NR are fond of shooting themselves in the foot on in this respect but that's the realities of a highly mobile workforce these days, which includes as OT has stated - overseas. After all, if your company of a competitor offers an attractive package somewhere warm and sunny and devoid of the British political trouble and strife and uncertainty this creates - why not?

Returning to single source suppliers, I have discussed electronic MMI suppliers. While there are many companies with staff capable of modifying RRI's / Geographical interlockings around there are far fewer with the necessary skills (and product licenses) capable of writing interlocking code for SSI and other computer based interlockings. Of these, stand alone schemes requiring alteration to existing intallations can often seem unnatractive commercially as they tie up a highly skilled resource, often for months at a time, yet offer little equipment suppy opportunities and construction activity thus creating an imbalance in the overall resource utilisation in companies who have cut their resource to the bone to keep costs down. Consequently, small alterations carry a high inconvenience factor and this is likely to be reflected in the cost wheras large resignalling projects provide significant advantages in all areas of signalling design activities, equipment supply, project management (well padded with assistants), Contruction and Testing teams and of course commercial. Unfortunately NR fail to appreciate the former and in my experience small alterations which should be simple and straightforward get bogged down with disproportionate debating, low priority within NR and sometimes the contractor which leads to delay (often nothing to do with the signalling itself) thus extending timescales and making the alteration anything but efficient in terms of resource utilisation.

Now we have new generation interlockings coming on board (Ansaldo ACC, Siemens SIMIS, WSL Westlock, SSL Smartlock, GETS VHL) all pretty much single source supplier technology which could impose a significant contraint in spreading the work around the industry in years to come should these need alteration.

As for lineside kit - well Modular Signalling is an interesting initiative but I note the major projects on the go at present have little content in this respect and in any case pricipally affect the lineside equipment designer which are generally available in reasonable numbers among the many companies that can perform this role.

My assesment on NR's 15 box aspiration - yes it will happen one day - I think they call it Manyana or something like that, but the supply industry must be given a guaranteed continuous, commercially rewarding workstream for them to invest in the staff and build the numbers again to make Manyana come and make NR's plans a reality. Over the last two decades, failure to provide this workload on a consistent basis has forced companies into short term investment in staff keeping them lean and mean, concentrated their efforts on overseas markets, waved goodbye to senior engineers who have become worn out by the boom and bust nature of the signalling supply market in the UK and the ridiculous initiatives to 'save' money this has spawned. The likes of Siemens and Ansaldo who Railtrack encourages to try their hand has resulted in negligable success (Bournemouth - Portsmouth / Manchester South). ABB failed to make an impression at all (Ebiloc at Horsham). GETS VHL - I can think of only three - there may be more but not many more in the UK.

The problem is as I see it, and it's nothing new I'm afraid, is that at the rate NR and the industry are able to complete the available work after it's finally specified, contracts let and commissioned with the limited skilled resource employed on UK work, the need to renew obsolete installations is building all the time, ignoring the welcome advent of enhancement projects which are the primary driver of resignalling presently it remains the case of the proverbial fourth bridge in signalling terms.

As for ERTMS - someone elses problem - good night!
 
Last edited:

Metroland

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2005
Messages
3,212
Location
Midlands
Network Rail has started consulting on plans to drastically reduce the number of signal workers and signal boxes as part of a modernisation programme aimed at saving £250 million a year and improving punctuality.

The Rail Maritime and Transport (RMT) union said the plans could see the number of signallers cut from 6,000 to 2,000 over the next 30 years.

There were 10,000 signal boxes at the start of the 20th century but that number has been reduced to around 800 today, but NR wants to introduce a new system, widely used in the United States and Europe, which could see the number of locations cut to just 16.

An NR spokesman said: "Network Rail is in the early stages of a proposal that could accelerate its signalling modernisation programme, delivering significant benefits in terms of more punctual services, more flexible services, better passenger information and savings approaching £250 million per year.

"It's a long term strategy, phased over 15 to 30 years, and we have started to discuss its implications with both the trade unions and our people."

The RMT made it clear it will not accept any compulsory redundancies and will be seeking a shorter working week, increased annual leave and voluntary retirement at 55.

General Secretary Bob Crow said: "There have been discussions this week over future signalling arrangements on the rail network. Those discussions are at an early stage.

"RMT wants to make it absolutely clear that we will not agree to anything that compromises the job security, safety or standards of living of our members.

"We are not opposed to new technology but we are clear that any changes that may arise should be accommodated through a shorter working week, additional annual leave and the right to retire at 55 on full pension entitlement."

* Services between Portsmouth and London Waterloo were delayed during the rush hour this morning because of signalling problems.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/rail-signal-workers-cut-proposed-2317431.html


yet

Invensys is planning to cut as much as 20 per cent of its workforce of 1,000 at its UK rail business after losing out to rival Bombardier for signal renewal work on part of the London Underground system.

Consultation with staff has begun over job cuts after Invensys failed in April to win the bidding process to upgrade signal work valued at about £350m on subsurface parts of the Tube system. The work covers the Circle, District, Hammersmith & City and Metropolitan lines.

The prospect of further job losses has fuelled the debate about public sector tendering policy that was ignited last month when Siemens of Germany was named the preferred bidder for the £3bn contract to build and maintain Thameslink trains.

The UK arm of Bombardier, the world’s biggest trainmaker, blamed the choice of Siemens for its decision to cut nearly half the 3,000 workers at its Derby factory, the UK’s last train-making facility.

Invensys declined to comment directly on plans, understood to be at a preliminary stage, to cut between 15 and 20 per cent of UK rail jobs.

Staff at company offices in Chippenham in Wiltshire have been told that cuts are needed. Job losses are also expected across the company’s offices in Glasgow, Birmingham, York, Swanley and Croydon, along with sites such as Euston, although the group has recently secured other business, such as work on installing and commissioning a revamped signalling system at London Bridge.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/39cf8ac8-b07f-11e0-a5a7-00144feab49a.html#axzz1SeBfmnnY
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
18,057
Location
Reston City Centre
Invensys is planning to cut as much as 20 per cent of its workforce of 1,000 at its UK rail business after losing out to rival Bombardier for signal renewal work on part of the London Underground system

This spoils all those cozy assumptions that people were making about Bombardier being the innocent victims a couple of weeks ago...

As for the "boxes" - for those saying that sixteen "centralised" boxes is too few, can they suggest a more appropriate balance between "local" and "centralised"? Surely nobody can justify 800 still in operation?

One benefit of fewer boxes is that it'd allow longer services on some rural lines - e.g. at the moment the earliest Sunday services on Lincolnshire lines is after lunchtime, because the signal box only operates one shift - having the lines controlled by a big "box" a hundred of miles away would actually improve things for passengers.
 

matchmaker

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2009
Messages
1,882
Location
Central Scotland
If (when?) the last mechanical signalbox on NR is abolished, any guesses on which one it will be?

My guess - Fort William Junction. Completely isolated and doesn't work to any other mechanical boxes.
 

Toots

Member
Joined
24 Oct 2009
Messages
275
How long before the "Stockport 5" manual boxes go?
Wasn't Manchester South due to supersede them?

Despite the anachronism of these boxes still working after the £8B WCML upgrade, you don't often hear he words "signalling problem at Stockport" on NRES.

Well there is a bit of irony here.There are going to be two IECC's in Stockport,Mancheater South and Manchester East.The former is already open,the latter to open later this year.The irony I was talking about,is that neither will control Stockport itself,which as you point out is controlled by five manual boxes.
Manchester South was supposed to take over this area,but the Ansaldo system was unsuccessful and in the end the Stockport boxes were improved and Manchester South went on to control the Wilmslow area,which saw Wilmslow and Sandbach signalboxes abolished,the same fate which awaits Ashburys,Guide Bridge and eventually Stalybridge boxes when Manchester East is commissioned.
 

TDK

Established Member
Joined
19 Apr 2008
Messages
4,164
Location
Crewe
Yet more Network Rail hype and spin by non-Railwaymen.

I doubt there is the design capabaility let alone the installation skills available to undertake the work, following Network Rail's previous policy of killing the market.

The above does not even factor in any of the other major schemes they are proposing to implement, and for which they have no Contractors staff available - the really good ones having gone abroad to places like Australia and the Far East/Middle East.

Well, many boxes have already gone and very competently resignalled, the ones I remember are :

Cosford, Codsall, Oxley, Bearley, Fenny Compton, Baschurch, Whitchurch and these are a drop into the ocean for all the boxes gone to either TCB and axle counters. I cannot see how NR could not replace all the AB signalling in the country over time with the more relaible systems now going into place.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
How long before the "Stockport 5" manual boxes go?
Wasn't Manchester South due to supersede them?

Despite the anachronism of these boxes still working after the £8B WCML upgrade, you don't often hear he words "signalling problem at Stockport" on NRES.

The section your refer to is only about 2 miles long and all colour light signalling with 4 boxes involved, a complete waste of resourses.
 

AlexS

Established Member
Joined
7 Jun 2005
Messages
2,886
Location
Just outside the Black Country
The axle counters between Crewe Junction and Gobowen could be more reliable! Being stuck for 50 minutes at Oxley's down section signal (or what would have been before the advert of ACB/TCB) with EBW in place between Oxley and Abbey Foregate because Madeley Jn had gone pop and taken out the whole long section is something I don't long to repeat either.

It is however a shame to lose local knowledge - as a signalman I sign 3 boxes on a preserved line and I know my 'patch' intimately - if there's an issue I can generally lay my hands on it immediately and I can visualise all of it - not so easy in an SCC.

That said that kind of knowledge comes at a price and I'd probably agree that with alternatives it's not really a price worth paying.

The ongoing advent of thousands of miles of railway with no staff anywhere near attendance does cause a bit of disquiet however.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
34,276
No matter what is about to open, it could just as quickly close.

For example, Basingstoke New is only about three years old, and is about to take on Salisbury - Exeter, then Poole - Weymouth.

Apparently NR are shortly to start building their new SW route signalling centre in the triangle between the main and Reading lines, once the closed Basingstoke ASC is demolished.

I suspect that if NR's proposals for about 15 signalling centres happens, (as listed in McNulty's report), 'Manchester' will be it, no North or South etc...
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,817
Number of signal boxes closed by BR in the decade of the 1980s? 1,200+

Number to be closed in the next 3 decades? c800

Arguably this is just a (re)continuation of BR policy. The unions asked for a return to BR, and in this respect they have it!
 

Toots

Member
Joined
24 Oct 2009
Messages
275
A few people appear to be getting the words manual and mechanical mixed up.There are a lot of boxes that are manual boxes yet have colour light signals.The fact is its a case of, if its economic to get rid of a box, thats what happens,but a mechanical or manual operation doesn't necessarily equate with inefficiency.It could cost hundreds of thousands to replace a box manned by grade 2 or 3 Signalmen,it would be cheaper with axle counters,but then if that box has points,level crossings etc it becomes more complicated and people would still have to be employed at the power box,even though less in number,they will be higher in grade,and if there isn't going to be an increase in traffic the gains would be negligable,which probably explains why you still have mechanical boxes continuing whilst PSB's from the 1960's are being replaced by their trackerball successors.....
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,817
A few people appear to be getting the words manual and mechanical mixed up.There are a lot of boxes that are manual boxes yet have colour light signals.The fact is its a case of, if its economic to get rid of a box, thats what happens,but a mechanical or manual operation doesn't necessarily equate with inefficiency.It could cost hundreds of thousands to replace a box manned by grade 2 or 3 Signalmen,it would be cheaper with axle counters,but then if that box has points,level crossings etc it becomes more complicated and people would still have to be employed at the power box,even though less in number,they will be higher in grade,and if there isn't going to be an increase in traffic the gains would be negligable,which probably explains why you still have mechanical boxes continuing whilst PSB's from the 1960's are being replaced by their trackerball successors.....

It costs multiple hundreds of thousands of pounds to employ signallers to keep one Grade 2/3 box open for one year.
 

The Planner

Veteran Member
Joined
15 Apr 2008
Messages
19,694
Depends how many shifts and people required. A grade 2/3 signaller is probably £25K plus overtime/rest days etc... I bet it isnt more than £150K a year.
 

Toots

Member
Joined
24 Oct 2009
Messages
275
Agreed,and when Walken (2),Atherton (2) and Crow Nest (4) close,there is every likelyhood at least six grade 7 Signalmen will be employed,(Its definitely nine in the case of Manchester East for three boxes),so with the discepancy between the wages and employment costs and offset by the huge implementation costs,it takes years to get the money back unless there is a real shift in traffic volume or frequency,this fact is borne out by the decision to upgrade the boxes on the S&C and the Branch rather than amalgamate the lines into Preston or York.
 

Teaboy1

Member
Joined
12 Feb 2009
Messages
554
Location
Tickhill SY
So does this "signal" the end of traditional boxes that control operation of points, junctions as well as semaphores? I note that GSM-R is being installed in my neck of the woods on the SYJR with remote transmitter masts being installed at Wadworth, Brookhouse and Anston. Now with best will in the world, the SYJR hardly warrants world leading ERTMS tech .... or does it ?? I mean, just a hand full of 66's per day unless it's being lined up for the impending Helios in-land port work.
.......incidentally good idea .... wrong place ..... stick it at Harworth or Thurcroft Mr.Shepherd Developments, Helios Europe, Segro et al ..... or Tinsley Yard ......... not a green field site .... please .... use some brains for once !!
 

ACE1888

Member
Joined
2 Apr 2011
Messages
823
Location
Penzance, Cornwall
While Signal Boxes are a traditional part of the British railway scene, technology advances continually and waits for no one, I wouldn't see anything happening overnight but gradually, quite possibly:roll:
All these Union quotes, rightly or wrongly, are attempting to minimalize and protect their members, but if its going to happen, it generally will, again it would be a gradual thing...
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
34,276
I note that GSM-R is being installed in my neck of the woods on the SYJR with remote transmitter masts being installed at Wadworth, Brookhouse and Anston.

GSM(R) rollout is not necesarily an indicator of ERTMS or boxes closing, it is because the existing NRN/CSR frequencies are being reallocated.

Everywhere in the country has to have GSM(R) by late next year anyway, whatever is going on with signalling...
 

CarterUSM

Established Member
Joined
4 Jan 2010
Messages
2,495
Location
North Britain
GSM(R) rollout is not necesarily an indicator of ERTMS or boxes closing, it is because the existing NRN/CSR frequencies are being reallocated.

Everywhere in the country has to have GSM(R) by late next year anyway, whatever is going on with signalling...



CSR signal was just switched off in the Strathclyde Manning Agreement area the other day. All the DOO trains now use GSM-R.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
34,276
This list gives an indication of the pace of change. As far as I can work out this suggests the whole of the Wessex area will be into Basingstoke over about 15 years. (From RMT's internal website...)

Wessex
2012 - Exeter to Salisbury
2013 - Aldershot to Farnham, Poole to Dorchester
2014 - Yeovil Pen Mill
2016 - Eastleigh (Panel 1), Farncombe, Guildford, Salisbury
2017 - Basingstoke, Eastleigh (Panel 2 & 3), Woking, Feltham (Panel 3 & 4)
2018 - Wimbledon (Panel 4 & 5), Feltham (Panel 1 & 2)
2019 to 2024 - Brockenhurst, Clapham Yard, Wimbledon (Panel 1, 2 & 3)
2024 onwards - Bournemouth, Haslemere, Petersfield, Havant, Marchwood, Wokingham, School Road

Another point I just noticed - a reduction to just two Electrical Control Rooms, at Three Bridges and in Manchester.
 

The Planner

Veteran Member
Joined
15 Apr 2008
Messages
19,694
So 6 signallers to cover the shifts for a 24/7 box ?? is that based on 8 or 12 hour shifts ?? If it is more than £150K the business case to close them is greater. Call it £250K then as a round figure, over 40 years of a re-signalling scheme, thats £10million in staffing costs alone, not including pay rises. Add in the cost of maintaining the old equipment then it mounts up.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
34,276
The cost to an organisation of employing people is usually considered to be at least 140% of the individual's salary, often much more.

At the very least there's employers NI contributions and employer's pension contributions, that could easily be 15-20% before you add anything else.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,817
Typically there are four signallers resident in each box on the roster, on a 35h week. Sunday is rostered but not part of the 35h week. Shifts on Sundays, BH and at night are paid at an enhanced rate Any gaps in the roster (leave, sick, briefing, training, vacancy) are covered by relief signallers who get a premium, or a volunteer resident on overtime / rest day worked, again at a premium. In man hours terms this is another one and a half people, but as it's all at a premium the cost is effectively the same as 2 people.

Typically, a signaller who just works the roster without volunteering for extra hours will earn approx 40% more than basic salary. Add in extra hours and it is easily 60% more, and if you push it you can double your money.

Add in employers NI at 13.8%, employers pension at 17% (if in RPS), travel facilities or season ticket subsidy if applicable and bonus, then the average actual cost per person is near double basic salary.

So a grade 2 box costs about £180k pa to run in staff costs. Add in property maintenance, utilities, and a few other bits and bobs and it totals over £200k.
 

John1976

Member
Joined
17 Apr 2010
Messages
23
Is the UK network unique in the number of signal boxes still in use that actually overlook the line? I know the Netherlands signal their entire network from a centre in Utrecht, is this the case everywhere in Europe? Im just interested how Britain's railway seems to be or maybe more importantly,portrayed as "old fashioned" compared to other countries.
Is it because v roughly speaking it's a Victorian system thats been built on and added to whilst in Europe they've had the 2nd World War and had to start anew so to speak? Or that we're a densely populated,largely urban country compare to for example France?
Just firing out a couple of theories that could be complete b0ll0x, wondering if more knowledgeable people on this forum with any ideas. I know it's a bit of a left field question and very broad brushed........
 

moggie

Member
Joined
2 Jan 2010
Messages
426
Location
West Midlands
The technology that allows this is the link between the signallers control point, the interlocking and the connection to the lineside signalling from interlocking. The latter is the key as normally the interlockings are co-located with the control point.

Since the advent of electronic interlockings use in the UK (some 25years ago now) it is possible to control the signalling using the public phone network as the comms link pretty much anywhere to/ from anywhere so in theory the possibilities have been present for that long (and have certainly been talked about for many years so not a new idea).

Electronic interlockings have a relatively (physical) small footprint compared to traditional relay or mechanical interlocking equipment therefore it is feasable at anytime NR chooses, to re-locate electronic interlocking kit from one control point (signalbox) to another by simply by re-routing the comms link from a relocated interlocking cubicle to the lineside equipment - no change to the lineside signalling. The only constraint being the need for a fancy new architect designed control point building for Bob C's men and women.

Various style control and indication processors are employed to generate the signallers display, typically on VDU from information derived from the interlocking. The link between interlocking and signallers control / indication processors will be new anyway and via a dedicated internal comms link.

However, where the interlocking is not electronic it can be more tricky to control from a central location as the existing relay interlocking is likely to be situated remote from the controlling point. TDM systems can be used quite happily for most installations with suitable information derived from the interlocking via the TDM for the new VDU control equipment. FDM as used at the old Saltley and Trent PSB's does not lend itself for transfer due to the amount of equipment at the controlling point hence one reason why they are shortly doomed to history. Some alteration is required to the signalling system when converting a remote relay interlocking from an NX panel to VDU using TDM (new or existing), for example provision of an 'electronic' Signallers Reminder Device which on a panel is a physical collar attached to the entrance or exit button to prevent inadvertent operation but on a VDU is just an icon but must achieve the same effect.

It is not practical to remotely operate mechanical interlocking controlling either semaphore or colour light signals without wholesale resignalling of the area. Often (but not always) NR will co-incide the transfer of control of non-electronic equipment to other major resignalling works adopting new electronic (or to use the parlance computer based interlocking). If I recall correctly, the reason the boxes at Stockport remain was because NR and their esteemed contractor ran out of funds due to the remainder of the Manchester South project running late and well over budget (it's never easy to introduce new technology in the UK hence my reservations on ERTMS).

So, clearly one day this aspiration will happen but imho it's the signalling equivelant of painting the forth bridge as a fair proportion of the available industry resources (NR's and the private sector) will be tied up with spot renewals of existing equipment and enhancement projects such as Thameslink / Crossrail etc.

And then there's ERTMS.
 
Last edited:

Metroland

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2005
Messages
3,212
Location
Midlands
Is the UK network unique in the number of signal boxes still in use that actually overlook the line? I know the Netherlands signal their entire network from a centre in Utrecht, is this the case everywhere in Europe? Im just interested how Britain's railway seems to be or maybe more importantly,portrayed as "old fashioned" compared to other countries.
Is it because v roughly speaking it's a Victorian system thats been built on and added to whilst in Europe they've had the 2nd World War and had to start anew so to speak? Or that we're a densely populated,largely urban country compare to for example France?
Just firing out a couple of theories that could be complete b0ll0x, wondering if more knowledgeable people on this forum with any ideas. I know it's a bit of a left field question and very broad brushed........

The UK seems fairly unique (for such a developed country) to have the number of signalboxes on the network it does.

In the USA, signalling is highly centralised on very few centres. In Europe and Australia the picture is more mixed, but in general few mechanical signalboxes remain.

However, in the UK, most of the signalboxes are on regional or rural lines, with most of the principal main lines controlled by relatively few centres.

The cost of manning some of these regional lines is especially expensive given the traffic. With some signal boxes controlling a couple of signals in each direction. In years gone by, there would have been busy goods yards and freight sidings, nowadays staff would be underworked with maybe an hourly passenger service and a few freights.

Many of these small signal boxes are not continuously manned, meaning lines have to shut to passengers early and are unavailable to overnight freight.

The point about recent signalling developments is PC based workstations are now the norm, with virtually no limit as to what can be controlled via modern data transmission networks. So even relatively modern 1960s/70s/80s PSBs look out of date both in terms of equipment (normally larger control panels) and the extent of areas they actually control.

Really resignalling has somewhat stalled in recent years and its amazing some (mechanical) signal boxes survive, but its really down to past underinvestment.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top