Train drivers will finally have access to toilets

[357]

When people ask what the union does for them - this is a prime example.

We shouldn't have drivers going in bushes or out of the cab door at signals, or even in bottles and coffee cups, but this is what's been happening.

I personally had snotty emails in the past for delaying a train because both toilets were out of use and I used station facilities.

It shouldn't have been 2025 by the time drivers got reliable access to toilets.

From ASLEF:

After meeting with ASLEF, the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) has announced that all TOCs and FOCs must ensure that every driver has access to a toilet every four hours.



Companies will adopt a Welfare Charter by World Toilet Day 2025, 19th November. It must be fully implemented within twelve months.



This will be based on ASLEF’s four principles:

A maximum period of four hours without access to toilet facilities as standard across the industry

The provision of safe, clean, accessible and dignified toilet and welfare facilities

Across the network:

Drivers must be able to go to the toilet based on their individual and personal needs without being subjected to management interference, discrimination or disciplinary action

All operators to provide free sanitary products in the workplace

Toilets available across the network for drivers who want to use them.

The details
For drivers, this means:

Universal toilet access arrangements across operators

Rosters will be adjusted to allow for breaks, especially in freight where the issue is particularly severe

The Network Rail Welfare Facilities App will be updated to map facilities, identify gaps and provide condition updates, and expanded to include freight, on-track machine operators and third-party suppliers

Interim solutions like pop-up toilets will be made available

Driver welfare will now be considered in infrastructure planning and rolling-stock procurement

Industry will promote a ‘welfare culture’ that aims to breakdown cultural barriers around toilet access.

 

[Harpo]

When people ask what the union does for them - this is a prime example.

Great result. But some might ask how things got so far removed from the authorised PNB point provisions of old.

I suspect a large number of parcel delivery companies (amongst others) would have kittens if their workforce were able to leverage this collectively - Or anything else!

 

[185]

One train operator put a keypad on a common use staff toilet, just weeks after the West Worthing death. They'd decided after 104 years, the toilet would now be only for their employees and not for others who'd been using the building in the decades prior to their arrival.

It shouldn't have took the intervention of the ORR to force that train operator to open the toilet door.

 

[357]

It shouldn't have took the intervention of the ORR to force that train operator to open the toilet door.

Agreed

However don't think that what the TOC did doesn't create problems for railway staff too.

There are numerous WhatsApp groups and shared spreadsheets with door and messroom codes in - yet I've still found myself climbing over a fence more than once in my career!

 

[InkyScrolls]

What will this mean for something like the Far North Line, with one driver taking the train on its entire 4½ hour journey?

 

[357]

What will this mean for something like the Far North Line, with one driver taking the train on its entire 4½ hour journey?

Does the train have a toilet onboard?

 

[Deepgreen]

From the OP - what on earth is 'World Toilet Day 2025'?! What are we expected to do...I hate to think!

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Does the train have a toilet onboard?

I think they have two.

I didn't realise far north drivers took one train the whole way, I definitely remember a crew swap happening with the crew from the North taking us that way with our crew leaving and taking the other train south

 

[Deepgreen]

What will this mean for something like the Far North Line, with one driver taking the train on its entire 4½ hour journey?

Possibly a 'Portaloo' at an intermediate station (Altnabreac!)?

 

[AndrewE]

What will this mean for something like the Far North Line, with one driver taking the train on its entire 4½ hour journey?

given the number of request stops that are unlikely to be used, I guess that the train (if it's running to time) will have the opportunity to pick up a bit of time, so a quick nip to the bog en route would probably be easily fitted in.
When things are running late then I guess it's down to goodwill or "force majeure!"

 

[jfollows]

Great result. But some might ask how things got so far removed from the authorised PNB point provisions of old.

I suspect a large number of parcel delivery companies (amongst others) would have kittens if their workforce were able to leverage this collectively - Or anything else!

I have heard of people putting up signs saying “delivery drivers welcome to ask to use the toilet” and although I would be more than happy to do so, I haven’t gone as far as putting up a sign and have never been asked.

 

[AndrewE]

Possibly a 'Portaloo' at an intermediate station (Altnabreac!)?

More likely, I can imagine a PA announcement: "Would passengers please leave the toilet free until we have left [insert station of need] as it is needed for traincrew purposes!"
Or the Guard gets a message and locks it temporarily until the driver has had relief! (add your own scatalogical jokes...)

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I didn't realise far north drivers took one train the whole way, I definitely remember a crew swap happening with the crew from the North taking us that way with our crew leaving and taking the other train south

Some services have a changeover at an intermediate station, but on others they work through, at least one each for Inverness and Wick crews.

 

[Teds]

It should not have come to this. Site owners have an obligation to provide staff toilets for their employees and any contractors that use those premises. Contractors is interpreted fairly broadly. McDonalds lost a court case over not giving access to toilets to delivery people Deliveroo etc.

 

[bengley]

Personally I have no issues watering the bushes from the cab door at a signal stop etc, but for obvious reasons other types of personal needs really require access to a proper toilet. Good result by ASLEF

 

[Harpo]

Personally I have no issues watering the bushes from the cab door at a signal stop etc,

I’m assuming you’re male? We do have a small (I’ll not boast ) advantage.

 

[DarloRich]

200 years of railways and only now is an agreement about provision and use of toilets agreed!

 

[fishwomp]

200 years of railways and only now is an agreement about provision and use of toilets agreed!

This. About time.

One of the most unionised professions, that holds strikes for pretty much everything, and yet basic human needs haven't been worthy of securing until now?

I can't imagine this would even have been a hard negotiation..

Note, the agreement is from ASLEF.. using the word "driver" a lot. Wondering about RMT members - hopefully not still in negotiations, with a ballot expected due to lack of minimum safety standards on loo roll (and technology payments for automatic hand dryers).

 

[357]

Wondering about RMT members

There's so few RMT drivers across the board that generally ASLEF can make agreements like this for the benefit for everyone.

For those members who aren't drivers, generally access to toilets is far better, be that station facilities, on-train facilities, or the vans NR use for track workers.

 

[380101]

This. About time.

One of the most unionised professions, that holds strikes for pretty much everything, and yet basic human needs haven't been worthy of securing until now?

I can't imagine this would even have been a hard negotiation..

Note, the agreement is from ASLEF.. using the word "driver" a lot. Wondering about RMT members - hopefully not still in negotiations, with a ballot expected due to lack of minimum safety standards on loo roll (and technology payments for automatic hand dryers).

This has been a decades long fight and has involved high level discussions with industry, ORR and even government ministers to get to where we are now.

Management never saw it as an issue because it was an issue that never affected them, given they have easy access to toilets whenever they need whilst working in an office environment.

The big push on getting to this point came from the ASLEF Woman's representative committee. The subsequent survey carried out revealed some harrowing and severely degrading incidents for drivers across the country, who were, for whatever reason unable to get to proper toilet facilities in time.

TOCs and FOCs are naturally against it because it means a massive overhaul of diagrams to ensure drivers have access to proper toilet facilities - toilets on trains ARE NOT deemed suitable and ORR agree on that.

 

[Ib5]

So for the last 200 years the railway hasn’t given two toots about the toliet needs of its footplate staff, but now ASLEF are falling over themselves to lure more female members, sorry I mean drivers they suddenly care about toilet facilities.

There is a significance to the four hour period as well, I’ll let you Google that.

Signed a female railway employee who has had to cross my legs on many occasions over my career, or has had to use facilities that you wouldn’t want a rat to use let alone a human being!

 

[Harpo]

200 years of railways and only now is an agreement about provision and use of toilets agreed!

As mentioned earlier, it’s something that worsened since privatisation.

When there was a national BR-wide manning agreement, turns were no more than 9 hours, PNBs were generally around the middle of the job (or split in two) and had to be at an ‘authorised PNB point’ which had toilets, water, cooking etc..

 

[m0ffy]

200 years of railways and only now is an agreement about provision and use of toilets agreed!

A mere 33 years after the regulations requiring such amenities came into force.

 

[fishwomp]

The big push on getting to this point came from the ASLEF Woman's representative committee. The subsequent survey carried out revealed some harrowing and severely degrading incidents for drivers across the country, who were, for whatever reason unable to get to proper toilet facilities in time.

It shouldn't have taken the increase in women drivers to make this happen - should have been standing up to get respect (it is what this is) on this a long time ago.

TOCs and FOCs are naturally against it because it means a massive overhaul of diagrams to ensure drivers have access to proper toilet facilities - toilets on trains ARE NOT deemed suitable and ORR agree on that.

This reminds me of a Postman Plod episode from Viz. He's on his morning break, and in absolute agony, straining not to soil himself.. but he won't go to the loo until it's on company time.. I presume it _is_ acceptable if they're actually needed? On that 4 hour diagram, you've had a bit too much tea... you can wait until Thurso or just nip to the passenger cabin. Who's complaining ..?

 

[357]

toilets on trains ARE NOT deemed suitable and ORR agree on that.

Interesting - I didn't know that was part of the agreement.

Perhaps if the TOCs put more effort into keeping the toilets clean throughout the journey and not just cleaning at terminus stations, then that attitude may have been different.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

As mentioned earlier, it’s something that worsened since privatisation.

When there was a national BR-wide manning agreement, turns were no more than 9 hours, PNBs were generally around the middle of the job (or split in two) and had to be at an ‘authorised PNB point’ which had toilets, water, cooking etc..

Turns were shorter and there were more drivers, spares, turns etc. Salaries were also half what they are today so the industry could essentially afford it. Whilst 100% I agree traincrew should have legally protected and guaranteed access to toilet facilities, the reality is that if this costs additional turns / heads then productivity is hit again, costs go up again, and the industry finds itself in even deeper difficulty than it does now.

 

[357]

but now ASLEF are falling over themselves to lure more female members, sorry I mean drivers they suddenly care about toilet facilities.

There have been multiple campaigns from multiple unions over the last 20 years regarding facilities, cab comfort, and more.

ASLEF don't employ drivers, they cater to their membership and what their members want.

It's only natural that as more female members join that issues that affect females more will be brought to the top of the list.

Signed a female railway employee who has had to cross my legs on many occasions over my career, or has had to use facilities that you wouldn’t want a rat to use let alone a human being!

Unfortunately, join the club!

 

[physics34]

This has probably only come about because of the increase in female drivers...

...which is a good thing

 

[Wyrleybart]

I think they have two.

I didn't realise far north drivers took one train the whole way, I definitely remember a crew swap happening with the crew from the North taking us that way with our crew leaving and taking the other train south

I remember back in the early 1980s (of class 26s !!) there used to be footplate swaps at Brora ( I did 26042 for 26046) and I think the steward too.

Probably these days the Wick or Thurso drivers need to keep Inverness on the cards so have one diagram a day. What happens with the Kyle ofLochalsh trains ?

I am guessing there are still Pwllheli drivers that work through to Machynlleth and back, but obviously with a PNB in between journeys.

 

[Ib5]

This has probably only come about because of the increase in female drivers...

...which is a good thing

I agree, but it will only create a divisive environment among some. It shouldn’t be about gender, which undoubtedly was a driving force now. It should be about a basic human need to relive themselves with dignity.

Either way it’s been a long time coming whichever way you look at it.